Samus wrote: I don't really blame Andy, he's been busy outside of the Foundry and even if he wasn't, the Foundry has grown a lot in the last few months and there's only so much one person can do. The only thing I think he could be doing more about is better directing traffic to the maps that warrant it (i.e., marking more maps "Final Forge"). But he says there's something in the works to make the Foundry process run smoother, so until then I think he deserves a chance to do what he thinks will work best.
I'm not a big fan of keeping things secret until they're done, I think that's missing out on some potentially helpful suggestions. I think there's a pretty good chance you'll end up saying "yeah, that would have been a really good idea" at some point, but we'll see.
Things really haven’t been kept ‘secret’. If you read the suggestions forum a while back ago, I stated we’d be switching to some sub forums to help alleviate clutter and speed up the process slightly. I’m working with Keyogi and the ModSquad right now. Right now, we are most likely going to add two additional sub-forums to the Foundry. Tentatively speaking they will be something along the lines of ‘Map Ideas’ and ‘Final Forge’. The regular forum would be used for normal development in the middle of the map. The Map Ideas forum would be for: 1. The general posting of ideas (A la Map Ideas Thread) and 2. also this is where maps would get their start. We could call this the ‘Molding’ stage. Once Keyogi and I discuss things a little more, we’ll get back to everyone. Basically from there, maps would get promoted from the idea to the real developmental phase, the main forum. And once maps are nearing the end, we’ll Final Forge and place the maps in the forum of the same name. Thus these maps will be sure to get the advice and discussion they need at this end of the road time. Both of these sub forums will help alleviate all the new developmental maps from being pushed down to the bottom of the main forum. So we should, theoretically, be able to have more maps in production, or so I hope! I’m not entirely sure I answered everything here, but I’ve tried.
Next….Ruben Cassar wrote: Well my map for example has been in the making since December and it never ever reached final forge status even though I think it deserves at least that. I know there are still some issues with it which I intend to look at in the future but I was told back then that final forge is just a name and that a map can get quenched even if it does not get that status once these issues are resolved.
Other maps that started development with mine reached final forge but mine never did and I had to live with it. Personally I think it never got final forge status because I asked why it had not reached that status yet and Andy does not like that so I am assuming he kept my map out of final forge status for that reason. Mibi as far as I know has done the same thing (asking when his map will be final forged) so I think things are working pretty coherently in the foundry process at least.
I was hoping you’d clear up a few of the minor things before putting into Final Forge status. As for why it didn’t go, it had nothing to do with you asking. I merely just like to joke around and poke fun at the people who ask to be Final Forge. I see it as asking a boss for a raise. Imagine if you did it every day! But in all seriousness, I wouldn’t hold a map back simply because of that, and I’m sorry if my jokes came off that way. I just like to keep the Foundry in a light mood, as I like to work in such an environment.
Next…WidowMakers wrote: I agree with DiM. I spend a lot of time up front with my maps before I post them. I think about the layout, naming, game play, colors, and bonuses. Yes there are fixes and everyone adds their comments. However, it really helps when the map makers spend time refining his idea before he posts it for the world. Plus a more refined idea in the initial post allows the public to really see the intentions of the map.
I agree with WM here. A more refined idea and image can go a long way to get the process rolling. I think sometimes people feel they don’t know where to begin if the map idea has barely progressed. But also you’ve got to counter act posting perhaps a near perfect, at least by your standards, you may just have to end up changing things when the Foundry sees it and responds. But a nice middle range should surely be sought for.
Next…Dim wrote: note that i stated then i hope for a faster foundry and i also suggested adding WM and Guiscard to the team to further improve speed and organization.
Better to do things in increments, than all at once, at least that’s how I see things. Perhaps we’ll consider more C.A.’s, but for the time being, we’ll test one out, and make sure the position is actually helpful.
Next…WindowMakers wrote: A suggestion I would make to the foundry process is changing the development process a bit. Idea/Gameplay shoul dbe the first thing that gwets approved. General layout (# of territories/borders/bonus) shoul dbe the first to go. Once everyone agrees that the map will play well and has appeal THEN on to the graphics. I hate it when a map is posted and the second post is get Photoshop and learn how to draw. Good looking maps are not good maps. They are good looking. Make a bad looking good playing map and then spend some time making it look good. That is the easy part.
So I guess my suggestion is adding a layer in the development process. We have Final Forge and Quenched. I suggest we add stages to reflect the process.
Idea = Preparing the map for development. Nothing is final. This stage is used to get the playability of the map in the correct form before going onto graphics/XML. Every map starts here.
Heating (new stage) = All aspects of game play have been established. Territories, bonus, borders, etc. Now people provide input for the graphical aspects.
Final Forge (new definition)=All aspects of game play have been approved/ Graphics/XML are almost done
Quenched = All aspects of game play/Graphics/XML have been approved
As I alluded to earlier on in this post, I talked about the ‘Molding’ stage, which would be essentially what you just described.
Next…mibi wrote: maybe yogi and andy need to take the foundry into the 21st century.
We’re surely trying to, and if you read the above responses you can see part of our action plan.
Next...Oaktown wrote: I don't think it's a bad process we have here, it's just not a clear one. Clear guidelines for what makes a map ready for final forge and quenching would bring an end to these monthly debates.
We’re giving it all some thought. I think once we get the sub-forums, as I mentioned earlier, things will be a lot clearer to the community.
Next…Samus wrote: Fair enough, but I assume you read the whole post and not just that sentence. I thought it was pretty clear I was inferring that changes to the community should involve the community, rather than being handed down from up atop the mountain high. If Andy is listening, then good. But he hasn't even told us what the change is going to be, so I don't see how that's possible.
See the many above responses. As you can see, many of the suggestions have been taken into account. And I’m always open for more discussion and dialogue. Plus, I’m taking the time to respond to this post (unfortunately taking time away from looking at the maps though…so fault you for that! Only kidding…:))
Next…Samus wrote: You can't really translate the interest level in the Foundry to be interest level when it has been Quenched. One of the most loved maps here in the Foundry is the Indochina map, and look where that is on the "number of active games" list. Also at the bottom are Crossword and Circus Maximus, which if either idea were suggested right now I have no doubts they would get a huge response due to their "new and innovative" styles of gameplay. I don't have a problem with any of those maps, but saying "those maps are the ones with the most interest, so they deserve the focus" is not quite accurate.
Just thought I’d like to respond to the Indochina map comment. The whole reason Lack and Twill created the Foundry Foreman job, was to organize and structure the Foundry…after the Freakshow debacle (cartographer of the Indochina map who refused to listen to most people). I think if the Crossword and CM maps were suggested now, they would’ve gone down nearly the same…but I think we could’ve made them even better with the amount of Foundry Members we have now. Back in those days, we had a small fraction of what we currently have now.
Next…Samus wrote: So far the method has been for Andy to eyeball it, which worked until about two months ago, which I believe no maps have been marked "Final Forge" in that time. Do you really think not one map has reached that level in two months?
This discussion began in the South Africa map because KEYOGI was the one who declared that map "near completion." To backpedal now and say "oh, but it's not ready for Final Forge" is just being spiteful, as Ruben Cassar said. So now the map won't be marked just to win an argument? That's not a very professional way to run the Foundry.
Seriously Samus, perhaps I should give the Foreman position over to you! If you want, I can contact Lack and tell him you’ll be taking over as Foreman of the Foundry.
Kidding of course, I’m just poking fun at you. It’s nice to see you around, it shows you at least care about the Foundry and the Process as a whole. As for the unprofessional way to run the Foundry, I don’t see myself as being unprofessional at all. Of course, I’m a little biased when evaluating myself. In fact…I think I’ll ask Lack for a raise due in part to how well the Foundry has been moving along!
But seriously, I think Keyogi and I are being very professional. We aren’t trying to ruin any maps or hold people back that we don’t like. I really don’t even hate anyone in the Foundry! You’ve all got a little special place in my heart, and I mean it. Every decent poster that has walked through the Foundry, I remember. I must say I do miss the old days of cartographers long gone, but I’m pleased to know that we’ve got many more budding cartographers ready to tear some maps apart and get into the development. It makes me smile, it really does. Seeing our Foundry prosper is one of the best things to see as Foreman. I love the Foundry, and I hope you all know that. I hope it comes across in nearly every post I make here.
Next…Samus wrote: The standards for graphics have gone way up, but as far as I can tell there aren't any standards for playability. As long as the regions have the correct bonus, that's the only required thought to put into how games will actually play out. And since graphical standards now more or less require you to be a graphics designer, map makers who focus on gameplay are constantly berated about how their map doesn't look good enough and told "this map doesn't appeal to me."
Jeez, you again? I’ve a feeling there will be more posts from you…
But seriously, standards for graphics easily can rise. Standards for game play are more set in stone. But that doesn’t mean that new things can’t be tried. Jota was one of the best examples of this. Take a look at all the revolutionary and new ideas he came up with? Sharing countries for continents, countries that don’t belong to continents, the +1 bonus, the negative bonus, and the map of all 1 way directions! And look at the other great ideas in the works! San Fran’s Alcatraz island…and the Eight Thoughts map as a whole! There are many others, and I know I’m forgetting some, but you see the picture? Also, I must ask, if the last “quote” in reference to what I sometime say in new topics? If it is, you should know I say that quite frequently in earlier development. Not all maps win me over with the first image. I’m Monkey, I like and dislike things. But I am always curious to see how maps can improve and grow on me. And I think I can honestly say I’ve liked every map I’ve put through the Foundry, in some way or another. I may play a few more than others, but each one is uniquely special in my mind.
Next…Crowley wrote: Another thing along these lines that really irks me, from a map-making perspective, is a person who just posts something along the lines of: "Your title doesn't work for me", "I don't like the color" or "that font is boring".
These kinds of comments should not be allowed. I don't mind criticism, but it needs to be constructive - people should post reasoning with any criticism, just like the cartographer has to post reasoning if he/she does NOT want to change something. The onus for reasoning can't just lie on the cartographer's shoulders.
Point me in 'the right direction', post an example or something, but don't just post a little one-liner critical post with no reason.
The talk about this mythical 'Foundry Process' is all good. I understand it and believe something as democratic as this is a great addition to this site, but then all posters should adhere to some kind of feedback guidelines.
It's a ongoing process and a map maker may spend many hours trying to perfect a map, only to have someone post something like "this is crap. I don't like anything" with no reasoning and that person might not even post again!
As for the way people comment, I’ve always tried to stay away from: “I don’t like, change this, change that, this sucks, I’d throw this map away” comments. If I do say I don’t like something, I think it’s only proper to respond how it could be changed to improve it and make it better. I also stray away from “Change, Do this, Do that”. If people would learn to phrase their suggestions and advice…as simply that…advice…people would be more responsive. Take for example, the differences in this scenario: “I’d consider changing the ocean to something a little lighter. Right now it feels like it just clashes with the lighter continent colors. Perhaps you could even use a gradient, or some effect to spice up the water?” And now… “Your ocean sucks…change it. I can’t stand it. It’s so damn dark. Do something with the water, it’s bad.” I’ve always found people to be more responsive as long as you use the correct tone. It really can go a long way. As for not allowing those ‘Do it’ responses in topics, I can only do so much. I do generally warn people, but sometimes people come new to the Foundry and just don’t understand the workings. Also, if I spent all the time policing responses in the Foundry…what do you think the process would be like then! Eeeek!
Next…Samus wrote: So, this is how I see the Foundry right now. Imagine and old man on a farm who is using a horse and plow on his field. His sons say "hey pops, why don't you get a tractor?" To which the old man replies "this is the way I've always done it, and it works. Look at the field. See? It works." The sons say "but dad, with a tractor you could do it a lot faster." The old man responds "what's your hurry? Plowing fields takes time."
I don't think anyone here is saying the Foundry is "broken" and we need to totally overhaul it, but it could work faster. If you don't want to work that way, that's fine, but that's no reason to "throttle" the map makers who do. If their pace results in substandard maps, don't Quench them.
To me, marking a map "Final Forge" is just a tool that brings a map more attention. I could care less if the marking was "FREE BEER!!!" instead, all that matters is that the map will get more attention. Not everyone who comes here looks at every last map, but most people want to look at the ones which are close to being played.
Of course you see things wrong with the South Africa map. You have a much better eye than most, you would not have been chosen for your position if you didn't. But if nothing was wrong with it, it would just be Quenched. However, if the map is close to completion in your opinion, shouldn't more people look at it and see what else could be improved?
Hm, well jeez Samus, harsh words! Let’s analyze things a little further. As for your analogy I’d say it is more surely and interesting one! I am indeed the old man of the Foundry, but I’m happy to know I will live a long life here in the Foundry, and hopefully never leave. Do you really see yourself here in a year? It’s unfortunate to see many of the cartographers come through, stay for a moment and talk to an old man like myself, and then hop back in their motor vehicles and drive off to some other land of more interest. The Foundry seems to be like a town…cartographers grow up and move on eventually…some do stay put for a while and some do make this their residence, but the majority seem to move on to better or at least, different things, leaving this old man here to deal with a new bunch of fun loving hoodlums:) I really don’t mind it though, like I said…it keeps the Foundry’s vitality up. And I do see many of the new cartographers as new blood and young guns. It’s nice to see this though, it really is. As for the analogy, it is a little off I’m afraid. Take for instance the previous posts about Sub-forums. Perhaps this isn’t streamlining the whole process with tractors, but I’d say a step up from the horse and mule? Upgrading takes time. For instance, look at the upgrades of the site! I doubt Lack could’ve even imagined half of the updates he’s made, because he never thought of them, but he has upgraded, in time. I see the Foundry as slowly upgrading…in time. Consider it in its infancy…when there was no Foreman. That was once stage. Consider the next the ‘Foreman Stage’, when I came along with the new fangled Foundry Process and Forging and Quenching! Whoooho! I think we stepped up from hoeing our fields to actually using a plow.
Now consider the additions of the C.A. and the eventual Sub-Forums…to be perhaps an early mechanical tractor. As for the Free Beer Final Forge marking, can you imagine when these things weren’t even around? Stages…and upgrades…over time.
Next…
What…wait…no more things to respond to! Geez…thank goodness! I must say I did get a little disheartened while typing up my responses as I saw the thread grow from 3 pages to 4. It made me chuckle though.
I’ll try to sum things up the best I can.
The Foundry Process (I love coining terms…do you think I should get some sort of royalties for all the new terms and lingo I’ve brought to our Foundry?
) is by no means a perfect process. But right now, I see it working rather well, with tweaking. And as you can see from my responses, we’ve got things in the works to help the process as a whole out. And we all will figure out what to do from there. I’m an approachable guy, I hope everyone in the Foundry knows that. I read and respond to PM’s, and I do try to follow most every thread as Monkeyly possible. I think with the addition of Keyogi as a C.A., I will have more time to get back to the root of what I love about the Foundry…analyzing and responding and suggesting. As I stated earlier, I love the Foundry. I hope you all know that I do. I do hope any of the people who thought perhaps I didn’t, have now seen the light. The Foundry IS my favorite thing about CC. I love the energy and creativeness that is unleashed from the Foundry. I love every Foundry member here, I do, I do.
Phewfta…well this response took over an hour to write! That is one hour I could’ve spent Forging and evaluating maps! Argh…I’ll get you all for making me respond to this and show you that I really care about the Foundry.
I hope I’ve cleared up some things. I’ll still follow the thread, and respond more to any questions and other comments. As always, feel free to PM if you’d like to discuss anything. I’m a nice monkey, I really am. I’m just curious…that’s all!
So I say goodnight, Foundry. Now get back to work…
--Andy
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