proposal: spreading foundry info to the world

[oaktown]

General Discussion foundry thread: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32474

Hi all. If one thing has come to light in the current debate regarding the foundry and its working, it is that those who do not frequent the foundry feel excluded from the mapmaking process. While it would be easy to blame the rest of CC for not trying, it is entirely true that the foundry is big and ugly and difficult to navigate, especially if you are a novice.

We the mapmakers should take it upon ourselves to make the process more transparent, and to bring other users into the foundry more often. So I propose something along the lines of Coleman's Foundry News (which seems to have disappeared?)

The creation of a thread in the General Discussion Thread called "Maps Under Development" or or something of that ilk. Like the Foundry News the initial post will be organized by new ideas, foundry, and forge, and be updated regularly. Unlike the Foundry News it will be the responsibility of the individual mapmakers to provide basic info on their maps, in the following format:

Map Title (with link)
Mapmaker
Description (two or three lines max)
Number of Territories
Special Play Features (bombardments, neutral starts, etc)

Getting this going will be a bit of work, but maintaining it will be pretty simple... I'd be happy to try to facilitate it. Again, the responsibility for submitting and updating information will lie with the individual mapmakers: just post the correct info in the correct format and I'll add it to the initial post.

here's my first example:

Duck & Cover Clicky
by Oaktown
The year is 1953: do you know what to do in case the Russians drop the bomb? Bert the Turtle does! This map was begun in response to requests for another small map to accompany Doodle.
Territory count: 24
Special features: bombardments

[wcaclimbing]

I 100% support this idea!

I could even help you out with it all. Im trying to get back into the foundry way of life after being absent for quite some time, and this would be great for me.

I could take one of the sub-forums and write small summaries for each map in production.

Just like the example you posted above.

I could do once-a-week updates for my section (if i end up helping).

I've been that quiet guy in the corner these past few months, always here but rarely saying anything. Now im ready to get out of my little corner of the map foundry and help do something again.

[RjBeals]

I'm down also. We should also include a thumbnail. The Foundry News was great but I image it took a lot of work to update by yourself. If we each update our own maps, it would only take a few minutes. Good Idea Oaktown.

[DiM]

i support the idea as long as it has a few rules added to it.

like:

please come and support the foundry in creating maps but don't forget this simple rules:

1. read the thread before you write
2. we're not mind readers so give an pretty clear description of what you want
3. no flaming.
4. DiM rules!!

[oaktown]

I'm down also. We should also include a thumbnail.

Thumbs would be good in the individual posts, but could be a bit much in the indexed initial post. I'll start a thread.

[RjBeals]

I'm down also. We should also include a thumbnail.

Thumbs would be good in the individual posts, but could be a bit much in the indexed initial post. I'll start a thread.

Naa... you really think? I bet most people would prefer a thumbnail. I know I would rather than reading titles & descriptions. Plus - if it's small enough it will load better than some avatars.

[wcaclimbing]

we could split up the entire forum for 3 of us. one takes map ideas, one gets the main forum, 3rd gets quenched and FF.

then, anyone who wishes to be featured can PM a brief description of their map to the guy representing the subforum that the map is currently in.

Then that representative organizes everything and we put it all into a post in GD or the Foundry for everyone to see.

[Coleman]

Well, the problem that emerged with Foundry News is that my life has grown increasingly complex and that my vision for what I wanted it to be became impossible to reach with the amount of time I have available.

Anyway. This seems achievable, especially if a group of people feels committed to up keeping the idea.

[wcaclimbing]

Anyway. This seems achievable, especially if a group of people feels committed to up keeping the idea.

Exactly!
With a group, rather than just an indavidual, if one of the members has to leave for whatever reason, the others can easily find a replacement to take his place and the group can continue to function long after all of the original people have moved on.

[oaktown]

honestly, seems easier to just post the info in the thread in GD and copy/paste it... we could also have multiple threads; one in GD, and one here in the Foundry to replace the seemingly defunct news. I'm writing a GD thread... you want to start a thread here, WC?

[wcaclimbing]

would it be like, I just start the thread, and then each indavidual cartographer will post a description and link to their map, and then i copy-paste everything into the first post, adding updates as needed?


also, any opinion on what the title of the thread should be, or would some generic "foundry news" name that has already been used be good?

[Aerial Attack]

This is an excellent idea.

I have one other proposed change. A non-regular (as opposed to "outsider") who visits the Foundry and looks at Map is either going to look at the FIRST (Original) Post or the last post. It's unlikely that they will read the entire thread [at least the first few times they post].

Therefore, mapmakers need to keep their posts updated. Most of you are very good about this. What I mean is that the first post in your thread should include the following information:

1. Most Recent Version of the Map (Large and Small)
2. A Description of the Map - what makes it different from/the same as Classic
3. Territory Counts, Continent Bonuses, Neutral Starting terrs, and other "Gimmicks" in a [ List ] format.
4. A summary of the major changes - quantify how many revisions you have been through
5. (as appropriate) Links for the maps and XML

I realize that this is a LOT more work for some of you. None of you have those revision summaries - but it would definitely help people viewing a map for the first time.

[RjBeals]

4. A summary of the major changes - quantify how many revisions you have been through

I like every suggestion except this. My Italy map lasted like 9 months and went through countless revisions. Sometimes people would visit and suggest something that had already been addressed, and I would point it out in the next revision update. In my first post, I started keeping the most recent at the top, and the previous version right beneath so people can compare changes.

What I may start doing based on your post is also adding the most recent revisions to the first post... I'll think about it.

[oaktown]

hmm.. the link in the GD forum should probably be to the first page of the map, which should always include basic info for first time lurkers. And I agree that any mapmakers' first post should include the information you've noted... this would be a good habit for all of us to get into, and streamline the process.

[DiM]

Therefore, mapmakers need to keep their posts updated. Most of you are very good about this. What I mean is that the first post in your thread should include the following information:

1. Most Recent Version of the Map (Large and Small)
2. A Description of the Map - what makes it different from/the same as Classic
3. Territory Counts, Continent Bonuses, Neutral Starting terrs, and other "Gimmicks" in a [ List ] format.
4. A summary of the major changes - quantify how many revisions you have been through
5. (as appropriate) Links for the maps and XML

I realize that this is a LOT more work for some of you. None of you have those revision summaries - but it would definitely help people viewing a map for the first time.

what do you mean by revision summaries?

something like what i did on AoR?

V23

DONE:
* moved army shields as requested by telvannia and cairnswk
* made both large and small at the same luminosity.

TO-DO:
* xml (started)

NOTES:
* in this version i put army testing results. i want to get feedback on visibility and stuff. i know they aren't aligned perfectly but that will be done at a later stage.

[image here]

[cairnswk]

oaktown....I'm sorry but i only support this idea if the map comments are going to come back to the foundry and not get posted in your thread. This thread of yours should not be a general posting thread but simply one of information and links to maps in development, and really when you think about it, there is already the development atlas that can be adapted and placed for your use.

All you need is to convince those "upstairs" that this is a good idea.

My topics of posting stats with links to the development atlas, the foundry news and the foundry itself was not allowed to be stickied by Andy, i have already asked.

we already have a forum here called Map Foundry.

the maps have their own topic threads pics etc. and everyone is welcome to come in here and give opinions.

i think this is simply pandering to a couple of disgruntled players who don't like the current versions of maps because they don't suit their play style.

The Foundry is reasonable well organised.

But i am not going to work on extra admin stuff of providing more information to another topic thread, when it already exists in here.

These commentors are quite able to go into the other discussion groups and post their opinions on flame wars etc. as i found out by examining both of these chaps profiles.

if this is what is needed then i don't want to give anymore to CC. People have a responsibility to look after their own posts. why should we pamper to these guys simply because they hold some rank they have obtained by
playing the same maps over and over and learning the process of winning the map.

if they really cared enough they'd take the time to come in and post some productive comments on the maps in development.

I'm pissed off by this whole process, not because they have attacked my maps, but because this topic has now taken a whole day of posting and answering. I'd much rather be working on my maps.

And if anyone likes, they can have this cartographer's assistants job.
i no longer have any interest in administering for the sake of administering.

Andy wanted us to make outsiders more welcome...well this has been done my myself, but perhaps not by others.

And certainly nothing has been advanced by those upstairs towards this process of getting more posters in this forum.

[wcaclimbing]

@cairnswk: stay around! keep helping. If this new stuff gets going the forums will probably improve greatly.

Any objections to this, you guys?:

To all of the Map Foundry Cargoraphers, this thread is the newest place to share your maps and make the Foundry run more smoothly.

This is NOT a discussion thread and NOT an advertisement thread. It is simply a list of maps and other important Foundry information that will be used to make the Foundry much more user-friendly and easier to use.

To participate, all you have to do is post a small description of your map (using the form included at the end of this post). Then, whenever I get the chance to (probably every few days), I will be copying every map description posted in this thread into this first post, so anyone and everyone, foundry regulars or new members, can come here, browse through each map included, and get a better idea of whats going on here, rather than digging through the forums trying to find the good maps.

Yes, this is similar to what used to be the Foundry News, but this time around we have a team of members backing this all up.

Here is the form to use:

Map Title (please include a link to your map thread)
Mapmaker
Thumbnail Image (optional)
Description (keep it small, please)
Number of Territories
Special Play Features (bombardments, neutral starts, etc)

And now here is an example to get you guys going:

Duck & Cover Clicky
by Oaktown

The year is 1953: do you know what to do in case the Russians drop the bomb? Bert the Turtle does! This map was begun in response to requests for another small map to accompany Doodle.
Territory count: 24
Special features: bombardments

I will update anything that is posted and add it into this first post.

I am going to post this as its own thread as long as no one is greatly opposed to the idea.

[wcaclimbing]

there is already the development atlas that can be adpated and placed for your use.

No offence to Andy, but the Development atlas sucks.

As i see it, it is just a text wall that offers no real information on maps, other than links to each thread.

What i just posted in my previous post will be a HUGE improvement on the Development atlas.

[Aerial Attack]

Cairnswk,

I see your frustration with people who didn't contribute turning around and making complaints (valid or not). I don't want to see you step down from your position - and I'm sure there are others like me.

I too think that if oaktown/wcaclimbing creates or modifies the "Developmental Atlas" (or Foundry Update or whatever else you want to call it) outside of the Foundry, that people should NOT be able to post. So, if we could somehow make an initial post and lock it. Is the thread creator (and mods) allowed to edit a locked thread? If so, that is the answer (so long as it could be stickied).

Finally, sometimes we are unfortunate enough to have to cater to people that provide no input - only aftermath (I realize that a map isn't like a software product, but there are definitely BUG Fixes abounding that weren't caught in testing).

[wcaclimbing]

I too think that if oaktown creates or modifies the "Developmental Atlas" (or Foundry Update or whatever else you want to call it) outside of the Foundry, that people should NOT be able to post.

People SHOULD be able to post, at least in the thread within the Map Foundry itself.

Because, other than using PMs, which would make everything much more tedious and difficult, the only way to reliably get accurate information is to get it directly from the mapmakers in the thread itself.

I think that the Atlas in GD should NOT allow posts, just because there are too many non-foundry-regulars out there that wouldnt get whats going on.

[RjBeals]

And if anyone likes, they can have this cartographer's assistants job.i no longer have any interest in administering for the sake of administering.

Andy wanted us to make ourtsiders more welcome...well this has been done my myself, but perhaps not my others.

cairns, don't do anything drastic. You are one of the elite around here. I don't post nearly as much as some of you, but I spend a lot of my free time lurking around the foundry. I don't know how you and a few others have the time to keep up with all thats going on around here, but you do a damn good job. I really value all you have to contribute and I really really love your graphical skills. I think I've said somewhere before that I don't play the more complicated maps (Like Pearl Harbor) simply because I'm not that good of a CC player. I prefer the more straight-forward approach - but that doesn't mean that others don't prefer some of your maps.

However, I do love following your maps. Bamboo Jack is my favorite by far (I still find myself just staring at it). Being a more creative person, I enjoy making / following the creation of maps probably more than playing the actual games. I would guess some of the other cartographers do as well....

But not to get derailed. I've been trying to follow the craziness going on around here the past day, and you guys handled it well. Oaktown should be a lawyer, not an elementary school teacher! Even DiM in his own unique way may some valid points & good arguments.

Just please don't get discouraged. You are really appreciated around here and the forum and site are a better place with your input.

(end pep talk here)

[oaktown]

cairns, no way I want your job. I'd rather just be some schlub who can post whatever he wants and piss people off.

It's been a lousy day for me as well... there've been negative comments made about my new map specifically as well as general comments about the new maps that included mine. I tried my hardest not to take them personally, but some of my feelings clearly came out in the "angry" thread.

So after spending over an hour of my time today posting in the "angry" thread i decided I'd do something productive. The GD thread I've started isn't meant to be stickied; in fact I'd rather it is NOT stickied, because this was it is just an effort by mapmakers to let people know what they are working on, rather than an official source of information. As soon as it becomes official, people expect more and get pissed off if it doesn't deliver.

This makes more work for me, and a little more work for mapmakers who want to be included. But it also makes it that much harder for everybody else to bitch about new maps if we've posted the basic info and a link to all new maps in the GD.

The way I see it, we're leading the horse to water - if they don't drink, let them die of thirst.

[Night Strike]

The way I see it, we're leading the horse to water - if they don't drink, let them die of thirst.

I agree. If people don't like the newest maps, there are still 50+ maps to play on. Everyone has at least one they like/are good on. If not, then you aren't a true Conquerer.

[Herakilla]

The way I see it, we're leading the horse to water - if they don't drink, let them die of thirst.

I agree. If people don't like the newest maps, there are still 50+ maps to play on. Everyone has at least one they like/are good on. If not, then you aren't a true Conquerer.

i believe a true conquerer is one that accepts and willingly plays all maps and successfully plays those maps. for if you only play one map but rarely lose you have only conquered so far about 1/50 of the possible choices

[Night Strike]

The way I see it, we're leading the horse to water - if they don't drink, let them die of thirst.

I agree. If people don't like the newest maps, there are still 50+ maps to play on. Everyone has at least one they like/are good on. If not, then you aren't a true Conquerer.

i believe a true conquerer is one that accepts and willingly plays all maps and successfully plays those maps. for if you only play one map but rarely lose you have only conquered so far about 1/50 of the possible choices

My point exactly, which is why I play such a variety of games (and still have a very respectable score). I purposely try to sign up for a different map for every 1 v 1 tournament I'm in (partially b/c I don't want to play the same map for multiple tournaments at the same time). Same for doubles. I avoid 6 player games and no cards and do not play freestyle, but other than those, I've done just about everything. I wish more of the top players did.