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Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:53 pmby ZeakCytho
We're getting a headstart on the community perspectives section for the 3rd Issue even though the 2nd one hasn't come out yet. Hopefully we'll get some more votes this time
Same format as last time: vote, and if you want to, write a few sentences or a few paragraphs on why you voted the way you did, or some musings on the topic in general.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:25 pmby pepperonibread
You think this might be a bit biased, with most of the people that'll be voting being foundrygoers? The mods usually don't let threads like this be made in General Discussion, but maybe an exception could be made. It would be more representative, I think.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:31 pmby TaCktiX
There's a surprise you'll read about come Sunday. Just wait, just wait...
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:02 pmby RjBeals
pepperonibread wrote:You think this might be a bit biased, with most of the people that'll be voting being foundrygoers? The mods usually don't let threads like this be made in General Discussion, but maybe an exception could be made. It would be more representative, I think.
QFT Pepperonibread. I'd say about 90% of the votes come from us 10-15 foundry regulars.
edit. O yeah, I think it's a very approachable forum. Just as much as any other specific interest forum on the internet. General forum community here. I like new members posting in here - it spices things up. You should expect to get thrashed if you come into a community and get too cocky, and I'm not speaking of map foundry - but any forum in general. You need to slowly ease in
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:58 pmby wcaclimbing
My vote is for Unapproachable, but not for the reason listed in the poll.
To me, from talking to many people that aren't foundry regulars, my opinion is that the foundry is unapproachable precisely because of our system of organization.
The map handbook, even though it holds (almost) anything you could need to know, is so big and at times confusing, that it takes a good 10 minutes to actually understand everything that is explained there.
That, along with the complicated threads (so much information packed in to the title and first post) and a structure that can be fairly different from everywhere else in the forums (no where else do you have to "go to page 36 to see the most recent XML update"), it can be a bit overwhelming for some new visitors, especially if they have never looked into the foundry before.
So, thats my opinion.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:35 amby RjBeals
I think our system of organization is pretty straightforward. Maps are divided into 3 categories (Ideas / Development / Final-F). Thread titles are clear, and I think telling someone [Update Pg-36] pretty much explains where to go. Plus, if someone seriously wants to make a map, I don't think 10 minutes of reviewing the handbook is that much to ask for. Consider that maps take months (or years) in production.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 amby hulmey
RjBeals wrote:I think our system of organization is pretty straightforward. Maps are divided into 3 categories (Ideas / Development / Final-F). Thread titles are clear, and I think telling someone [Update Pg-36] pretty much explains where to go. Plus, if someone seriously wants to make a map, I don't think 10 minutes of reviewing the handbook is that much to ask for. Consider that maps take months (or years) in production.
YOU think its straightforward but you've been in the foundry for a while now. You have seen and witnessed the changes over the past year, whereas someone with a little interest may find it daunting and more than likely just give up!
This is not to say the system is bad, it just is how it is!
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:28 amby t-o-m
in answer to the poll:
when i 1st came to the foundry - it seemed daughnting and really bad! people were mean, kind of shout at you for not doing things 100% perfect, i suppose that's what we expect.
but now i know what goes on around here, its no so bad
but i feel that ive become one of those people who is mean, i dont mean to be - i suppose its just how i come across.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:19 amby bryguy
id have to say that it is most definately neutral. Some people here when i first entered the foundry seemed really nice and inviting, while others seem (to a new comer) to be saying STAY AWAY and scary. You have to stay around for a couple of weeks to figure out that the ones that seemed scary and STAY AWAYish at first are/can-be nice (example= DiM, he scared me to death when i first entered the foundry, but after a couple of weeks i found out that he wasnt scary at all)
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:55 amby Kaplowitz
bryguy wrote: (example= DiM, he scared me to death when i first entered the foundry, but after a couple of weeks i found out that he wasnt scary at all)
It was definitely his old avatar.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:22 pmby t-o-m
i think it is because the forum is all about critisism, and people take it personally and think they;re being targeted.
we somehow need to get across that this forum has critisism in but it is not personal, just the way things work
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:59 pmby bryguy
Kaplowitz wrote:bryguy wrote: (example= DiM, he scared me to death when i first entered the foundry, but after a couple of weeks i found out that he wasnt scary at all)
It was definitely his old avatar.
no, it was his old sig with the "Et tu brute?" thing, that scared me off
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:04 pmby seamusk
t-o-m wrote:i think it is because the forum is all about critisism, and people take it personally and think they;re being targeted.
Gotta disagree here. Everyone expects criticism. The biggest thing I've noticed is that 1) there are a lot of egos flying around here, 2) much of the criticism (lets say 33%) is not constructive criticism, and 3) There is a shit load of negativity towards new idea (some combined with constructive criticism but much of it isn't).
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:54 amby gimil
seamusk wrote:t-o-m wrote:i think it is because the forum is all about critisism, and people take it personally and think they;re being targeted.
Gotta disagree here. Everyone expects criticism. The biggest thing I've noticed is that 1) there are a lot of egos flying around here, 2) much of the criticism (lets say 33%) is not constructive criticism, and 3) There is a shit load of negativity towards new idea (some combined with constructive criticism but much of it isn't).
I got to disagree with this, alot of people lately have been taking resonable constructive critisim very personally. Its true that alot of new ideas are commented on negativly, but usually if someone comes with with competant graphics they will recieve the constructive feedback they need to move on. but alot of these new hopefuls have been known to make these as negative personal attacks.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:50 amby MrBenn
Part of me wants to rank the CC forums in order of approachableness... Something like:
Most Approachable...
Q&A
Tournaments
Callouts
Map Foundry
Suggs & Bugs
General Discussion
Flame Wars
... Least Approachable
There is a lot of flaming that goes on in GD - just look at the people who jump over somebody who posts something in there about the dice! In the grand-scheme of things, I'd put the Foundry in the middle... hence my neutral vote, which is bordering on the 'approachable' side.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:17 amby seamusk
gimil wrote:seamusk wrote:I got to disagree with this, alot of people lately have been taking resonable constructive critisim very personally. Its true that alot of new ideas are commented on negativly, but usually if someone comes with with competant graphics they will recieve the constructive feedback they need to move on. but alot of these new hopefuls have been known to make these as negative personal attacks.
I have no doubt that that happens as well. However, there is boatloads of unnecessary negativity towards new ideas. Maybe some folks need to take criticism better, but others need to learn how to deal it more appropriately as well. I think more should be expected from those who have been here a while. It is always easier to criticize than to give kind words towards someone posting an idea you personally don't like. I think blanket criticisms are an issue too. If you are going to criticize, it isn't constructive if it lacks advice.
I would simply suggest that folks take two deep breaths and wait 10 minutes before posting on any threads or comments from newbies. That first post can also advice that criticism will come but to take in stride. I always feel an obligation to help new map makers myself (and I've only been here a short while). It seems the right thing to do whether I like something or not.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:26 amby RjBeals
seamusk wrote: I think more should be expected from those who have been here a while.
I hope more is not expected from me. I contribute what I want to this site. When Lack puts me on the payroll is when you should expect more from me. That's when CC becomes a job, and not a fun pastime - when people expect things from you.
seamusk wrote:I always feel an obligation to help new map makers myself (and I've only been here a short while). It seems the right thing to do whether I like something or not.
What about if there is no hope for the map. Some maps, however passionate the map maker is, will never ever ever get quenched. Why string the poor guy on for a few weeks - when he's just going to abandon the map anyway. It happens all the time. Look at the Baltic States map. That guy has no chance of quenching the map, his skill level is miles away from where he needs to be. The only map maker who ever took the time to learn software, and persist through the foundry, and quench a map was DIM. All others quit.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:34 amby seamusk
RjBeals wrote:seamusk wrote: I think more should be expected from those who have been here a while.
I hope more is not expected from me. I contribute what I want to this site. When Lack puts me on the payroll is when you should expect more from me. That's when CC becomes a job, and not a fun pastime - when people expect things from you.
Anytime you volunteer at anything and find yourself in a position as an experienced partisan, then more is or ought to be expected of you. It is part of life, not just work.
RjBeals wrote:seamusk wrote:I always feel an obligation to help new map makers myself (and I've only been here a short while). It seems the right thing to do whether I like something or not.
What about if there is no hope for the map. Some maps, however passionate the map maker is, will never ever ever get quenched. Why string the poor guy on for a few weeks - when he's just going to abandon the map anyway. It happens all the time. Look at the Baltic States map. That guy has no chance of quenching the map, his skill level is miles away from where he needs to be. The only map maker who ever took the time to learn software, and persist through the foundry, and quench a map was DIM. All others quit.
If you have doubts about the quenchability, express them but do so constructively. It is one thing to jump in a thread of a new idea and say, "This could be tough. Several folks have tried similar but were unsuccessful. Here are some ideas to maybe help though...." and another to jump in and say, "This will never work. Tried and failed."
But don't assume it won't work or that they will abandon it. You don't know what that person is capable of. Otherwise what happens is the assumption becomes true in part because you helped make it true. People are less likely to stick it out if we are rude to them.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:38 amby yeti_c
I changed my vote so that the bar graph looked more like someone sticking their middle finger up!!
C.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:59 amby wcaclimbing
yeti_c wrote:I changed my vote so that the bar graph looked more like someone sticking their middle finger up!!
C.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:03 amby bryguy
Rj, i dont think that the baltics map is hopeless. Sure he's miles away from having the experience he needs, but if he has someone to help him, he could get better at it. Take for example Builder (now famine), at first, it was a piece of crap, plain and simple. After gimil helped me tho, it had a fighting chance. So dont give up on something right away
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:04 amby RjBeals
I haven't given up. I told him to learn layers. I'll wait and see what he comes up with.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:17 amby t-o-m
MrBenn wrote:Part of me wants to rank the CC forums in order of approachableness... Something like:
Most Approachable...
Q&A
Tournaments
Callouts
Map Foundry
Suggs & Bugs
General Discussion
Flame Wars
... Least Approachable
There is a lot of flaming that goes on in GD - just look at the people who jump over somebody who posts something in there about the dice! In the grand-scheme of things, I'd put the Foundry in the middle... hence my neutral vote, which is bordering on the 'approachable' side.
i think owenshooter makes GD very unapproachable.
but that's just my personal experinces/opinions
i would say that the map foundry is lower down in the approcability, perhaps we could find ways on how to make it more approachable
the harshness is in the map idea - you know how flame wards forum has something at the top, maybe we could ahve something in map ideas saysing something like:
"post all new map ideas without a draft in the
map ideas announcement"
so it would encourage people to not make new threads and not get told what to do, (as in post it in the announcement)
that could make it better?
or assign someone to maintain the ideas section to make sure things are dealt with correctly?
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:00 pmby DiM
RjBeals wrote:The only map maker who ever took the time to learn software, and persist through the foundry, and quench a map was DIM. All others quit.
so who remembers one of my first maps: TERMITARIUM
- Click image to enlarge.
Re: Foundry Newsletter: Community Perspectives (3rd Issue)
Posted:
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:08 pmby wcaclimbing
I remember it!