Conquer Club

I see this database hasn't been updated for whatever reason.

Is there any chance that it can be, or is all that down to the wire with Chipv.

I believe that chip has retired it, but kept it available with the info that was available up to that point.

MrBenn wrote:I believe that chip has retired it, but kept it available with the info that was available up to that point.

So there is no chance of getting hold of it and updating it.

cairnswk wrote:

MrBenn wrote:I believe that chip has retired it, but kept it available with the info that was available up to that point.

So there is no chance of getting hold of it and updating it.

Maybe a day...

This needs support to keep going. If that happens properly, I see no problem in continuing this, but I would like to
write down just how complex and time consuming this is without Foundry assistance:

For example I still have not received a complete list of map descriptions from each mapmaker.
List needed is here:

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=74233

I would accept a senior Foundry member to provide descriptions where it is not possible for the mapmaker to provide.
(I asked for this also, no repsonse).

I have also asked for a number of things to be made part of the quench process which would help make this easier.
(Not happened yet)

Just for information here is the level of complexity of keeping this thing going:

1. Needs a server and a database.
2. Needs a server script to process and print the web page(s).
3. Needs following info regularly updated from Foundry:

FOR EACH MAP

i) Quench Dates
ii) Map Maker (all 4 of them) per map + country
iii) Number of Territories
iv) Discussion Topic URL
v) XML file
vi) Large, Small , Thumbnail image links
vii) Feature list - e.g. Bombardments

Here is what I have to do in addition for each map:

a)Scan each map for features.
b) Locate every territory for every feature
c) Store co-ordinate list of territories so that they are all highlighted when feature is clicked.

This takes ages, even with a script I wrote to make it faster.
It would also be great to colour one way attacks differently (so needs multiple coordinate lists)

So if someone would really like to help reinstate this then here is what must happen (doesn't matter who updates it)

1. Complete all map descriptions.
2. For each newly launched map, make following info mandatory and updated to be published somwhere central on its own
i) Quench Date
ii) All 4 mapmakers (XML, Graphics etc) + their countries esp if new mapmaker
iii) Number of territories
iv) Other files can come from maps.xml
v) List all features of the map (e.g. One Way Borders etc)
vi) List all territories per feature
vii) Ideally list coordinates on small map for these territories as a list so it is easy to import into a database.

As I said it doesnt matter who updates it, things have to happen first.
But I give someone else absolutely no chance of doing this on their own, given how long this took to compile
and the number of tools I had to write just to make the job barely manageable timewise.

What could happen, I suppose is provide some formatted file to someone and let them take responsibility for maintaining.
Then for each new map I could literally dump the new data in seconds and the job is done.

Chip, we all applaud your work on this, but do remember this is a volunteer site. People aren't paid to work on things and therefore you can't demand things of them. If they don't update their own work and details and if you want to see the project through to completion then patience and tireless constant struggle is the order of the day. And if poeple don't provide details then you can always add stuff yourself. If the foundry in not happy with that information input by you, then they can ask for adjustment just like happens in maps.

I know exactly where you're coming from, and that is why the datbase needs to be able to be completed by several poeple and not just one person.

chipv wrote:.....
What could happen, I suppose is provide some formatted file to someone and let them take responsibility for maintaining.
Then for each new map I could literally dump the new data in seconds and the job is done.

What would be nice is if you could create a user input interface that has a submit button on it so that people could go there and update the database itself so that they needn't bother anyone else. And if they don't update it, then that is their problem as a map-maker.
As it stand, this is a huge piece of information that is valuable to everyone who attends this site to play.

FOR EACH MAP
i) Quench Dates
ii) Map Maker (all 4 of them) per map + country
iii) Number of Territories
iv) Discussion Topic URL
v) XML file
vi) Large, Small , Thumbnail image links
vii) Feature list - e.g. Bombardments

This above doesn't take long at all to gather this information.

This below does take a while (but i don't believe it is necessary for each map and is extra ontop of what the original project was to be about). I applaud you for going this far, but you've created a monster that is now time consuming to maintain by your own admission.

Here is what I have to do in addition for each map:
a)Scan each map for features.
b) Locate every territory for every feature
c) Store co-ordinate list of territories so that they are all highlighted when feature is clicked.

As a project for others though, the foundry should not let this go.

cairnswk wrote:
What would be nice is if you could create a user input interface that has a submit button on it so that people could go there and update the database itself so that they needn't bother anyone else. And if they don't update it, then that is their problem as a map-maker.
As it stand, this is a huge piece of information that is valuable to everyone who attends this site to play.

This is not a bad idea, actually, let me think about how to provide this.

Ok this is ready to be tested now.

Can one of the Foundry Mods contact me via PM or chat please?

Ok I'm posting this for testing for now and then will do a proper thread afterwards.

From a nice idea from cairnswk:

Map Database Portal

http://chipv.freehostia.com/portal.php

You may be aware of the Map database I did a while ago

Map database

Trouble is it was difficult to keep on top of for one person so here is a portal to allow anyone to add and edit the database.

Currently it will work for any map in the xml (so BETA maps included)

How it works:

1. If the map does not exist in the map database

Fill in the form, hit submit. You will be taken straight to the actual database page created.
Don't worry if you missed some stuff out, you can edit later.

2. If the map already exists in the map database

Type map name and hit Retrieve.
The form fills up with data already existing in the database.
Then you edit/fill in form, hit submit as above.

That's pretty much it but you will need to know some more:

126 maps are locked except for descriptions. As time goes by, maps will be locked so no further edits (when all info has been gathered).
You can add and edit any other maps as you please.

Note that for safety and convenience empty fields will not overwrite the corresponding data in the database.

Brief Reminder:

For adding a new map - Fill form, submit
For editing existing map, Hit Retrieve, edit form, hit submit.

Fields in form and how to understand them:

Map Name - mandatory obviously
Map description - brief description of the map. Shows up on the database in italics.
Mapmaker - Idea
Mapmaker - Gameplay
Mapmaker - Graphics
Mapmaker - XML
Launch Date
Number Of Territories

From CC API http://www.conquerclub.com/api.php?mode=maps

Discussion Topic Number - the number at the end of the link (same number in CC API)
Root - this is basically the root filename for large, small, thumbnail and xml files.

e.g. For Age Of Merchants the CC API shows all these files have a root of Age_Of_Merchants

Image Extension - extension of the large and small images file e.g. jpg

Coordinates

These are for map tags.

Tags with no coordinates selected are in blue.
Tags with coordinates selected are in green.

To add coordinates/tags:

Click on a tag link.
The map will show up.
Click on the territory that exemplifies the tag.
The coordinates get automatically added.

Click clear to start again on that tag.

When form is submitted, tag examples automatically show up just as you selected them.

Let me know feedback please.

Thanks

Don't forget the discussion topic number!

The Discussion topic link won't show at all if you don't supply anything. Same goes for the Root although that's pretty obvious because the image won't show.

Chipv. Preliminary testing...i've just added Poison Rome initial data.
A couple of suggestions if it is possible....

1. i wanted to add the bombardments to the map, which i've done but only added the targeted territories.
Is it possible (or am i mis-informed) for the territories that are doing the bombarding to others to be shown also but in a different colour. This might involve some alterations to the master programming file, i don't know, but i thought i'd ask.

2. Adding the features: Is it possible for some text to be added to the portal submit/retrieve page that details what all these particular features are. You've got the pop-up descriptions in the main Find Map page, but i am thinking that someone who doesn't know what all these features are and how they work (like myself ) would have to go off searching for the definitions on other maps. It would be easier to place some details on the submit page and thus get the job of listing the map done more efficiently and not having bits and pieces left out.

3. The other thing i noticed, and don't know it this is small bug or not, but after i first submitted Poison Rome, and retrieved it, the number of terrtories was missing along with the Discussion Topic Link, i.e. they didn't take on the first submission.

4. Is there any way that this process can be monitored by the mods, Andy or MrBenn perhaps should be involved here.
Here's the thing. Maps only need to be allowed in this database after they've been fully quenched after going through the Beta process. This is important because some things can change in the BETA play process such as neutral adjustments etc, and if a mapmaker places the map information into this database too early, and then something gets changed and they forget to adjust the information after the change, this could throw viewers by providing incorrect information on the map. i don't know what exactly to suggest here but it seems like something worthy of discussion.

Hope this helps, and yes, beautiful work, i must say. This should, after you've got it finalised allow this to be a very valuable input tool for map information.

Thanks, cairns, I've responded inline:

cairnswk wrote:Chipv. Preliminary testing...i've just added Poison Rome initial data.
A couple of suggestions if it is possible....

1. i wanted to add the bombardments to the map, which i've done but only added the targeted territories.
Is it possible (or am i mis-informed) for the territories that are doing the bombarding to others to be shown also but in a different colour. This might involve some alterations to the master programming file, i don't know, but i thought i'd ask.

I've been scratching my head about these for ages. Most of the problems with Bombardments, One Ways, Ranged Attacks are trying to get a graphical representation to distinguish between one way and 2 way attacks.

Take bombardments. It would be impossible to tell what actually bombarded what even with 2 colours if you have a map with a lot of bombardments. So far I've selected both bombarder and bombardee so all relevant territories are highlighted per tag.

I am open to suggestions on this one, would love to do it.

cairnswk wrote:2. Adding the features: Is it possible for some text to be added to the portal submit/retrieve page that details what all these particular features are. You've got the pop-up descriptions in the main Find Map page, but i am thinking that someone who doesn't know what all these features are and how they work (like myself ) would have to go off searching for the definitions on other maps. It would be easier to place some details on the submit page and thus get the job of listing the map done more efficiently and not having bits and pieces left out.

Done.

cairnswk wrote:3. The other thing i noticed, and don't know it this is small bug or not, but after i first submitted Poison Rome, and retrieved it, the number of terrtories was missing along with the Discussion Topic Link, i.e. they didn't take on the first submission.

Well spotted, thanks. Territories was a bug, now fixed.
The Discussion Topic is the number not the link, I have changed the text, my fault.
So it is the number at the end of the link - same as the one in maps.xml (now the CC API).

e.g. Bamboo Jack link is viewtopic.php?t=24920 but we only need the 24920 to be entered.

cairnswk wrote:4. Is there any way that this process can be monitored by the mods, Andy or MrBenn perhaps should be involved here.
Here's the thing. Maps only need to be allowed in this database after they've been fully quenched after going through the Beta process. This is important because some things can change in the BETA play process such as neutral adjustments etc, and if a mapmaker places the map information into this database too early, and then something gets changed and they forget to adjust the information after the change, this could throw viewers by providing incorrect information on the map. i don't know what exactly to suggest here but it seems like something worthy of discussion.

Hope this helps, and yes, beautiful work, i must say. This should, after you've got it finalised allow this to be a very valuable input tool for map information.

Yes agreed, MrBenn definitely.

Now this is a little tricky because all the root files including the images are available during BETA so there is nothing currently stopping someone from inputting BETA map info. Perhaps a MrB or one or more volunteers can check the BETA info is still correct after full quench or I can try and think of some mechanism to prevent data input during BETA, up for discussion.

Thanks for feedback, more feedback welcome of course from anyone.

chipv wrote:[Bombardments]....I've been scratching my head about these for ages. Most of the problems with Bombardments, One Ways, Ranged Attacks are trying to get a graphical representation to distinguish between one way and 2 way attacks.

Take bombardments. It would be impossible to tell what actually bombarded what even with 2 colours if you have a map with a lot of bombardments. So far I've selected both bombarder and bombardee so all relevant territories are highlighted per tag.

I am open to suggestions on this one, would love to do it.

OK. i'll get my thinking cap on also for this one.

cairnswk wrote:3. The other thing i noticed, and don't know it this is small bug or not, but after i first submitted Poison Rome, and retrieved it, the number of terrtories was missing along with the Discussion Topic Link, i.e. they didn't take on the first submission.

Well spotted, thanks. Territories was a bug, now fixed.
The Discussion Topic is the number not the link, I have changed the text, my fault.
So it is the number at the end of the link - same as the one in maps.xml (now the CC API).

e.g. Bamboo Jack link is viewtopic.php?t=24920 but we only need the 24920 to be entered.

Excellent, thanks for clearing that one up.

One last thing i thought of. While we can get information in the Dbase now, what say someone wants it deleted.
We can edit it, but for whatever reason, would it be appropriate to place some small note on the input page that says something to the affect to contact whomever about a file deletion if required, or is that simply a matter of deleting all the information on the retrieve page and re-submitting it to the dbase. Would this muck up your dbase indexing at all?

cairnswk wrote:One last thing i thought of. While we can get information in the Dbase now, what say someone wants it deleted.
We can edit it, but for whatever reason, would it be appropriate to place some small note on the input page that says something to the affect to contact whomever about a file deletion if required, or is that simply a matter of deleting all the information on the retrieve page and re-submitting it to the dbase. Would this muck up your dbase indexing at all?

That would be me because the only way to do this is safely is for me to delete the record directly from the database.
There is no getting around this one.

For safety in editing I have prevented overwrite if a form field is empty - there would be a ton of accidents if this were not so.
It also makes it easier to edit - you don't have to keep pressing retrieve all the time. I have said press retrieve first in the instructions
so that people can see the whole record before submission but in actual fact you don't need to.

So that means you can't actually delete a record - I can do that but directly on the database.
By doing it this way, the indexing also takes care of itself.

chipv wrote:

cairnswk wrote:One last thing i thought of. While we can get information in the Dbase now, what say someone wants it deleted.
We can edit it, but for whatever reason, would it be appropriate to place some small note on the input page that says something to the affect to contact whomever about a file deletion if required, or is that simply a matter of deleting all the information on the retrieve page and re-submitting it to the dbase. Would this muck up your dbase indexing at all?

That would be me because the only way to do this is safely is for me to delete the record directly from the database.
There is no getting around this one.

For safety in editing I have prevented overwrite if a form field is empty - there would be a ton of accidents if this were not so.
It also makes it easier to edit - you don't have to keep pressing retrieve all the time. I have said press retrieve first in the instructions
so that people can see the whole record before submission but in actual fact you don't need to.

So that means you can't actually delete a record - I can do that but directly on the database.
By doing it this way, the indexing also takes care of itself.

Kewl. I luv your work. Takes care of that.
And while you tidied that, i finsihed one 500 words economic reports and wrote another for 10% assignment mark.
Good productivity all round, i'd say.

Ok maybe I can go ahead and post a full thread - we probably ought to lock map data when the mapmaker is satisfied.

Perhaps you could only allow the mapmaker themselves to enter their own data?!

Not sure how - and that would also involve someone making dummy entries (MrBenn/Chip) with (say) thread number and lead mapmaker...

Once done - only MrBenn/Chip and Mapmaker can then edit those entries?

Just a shade concerned that this could get trolled?

C.

yeti_c wrote:Perhaps you could only allow the mapmaker themselves to enter their own data?!

Not sure how - and that would also involve someone making dummy entries (MrBenn/Chip) with (say) thread number and lead mapmaker...

Once done - only MrBenn/Chip and Mapmaker can then edit those entries?

Just a shade concerned that this could get trolled?

C.

Map Data is locked when they're completed.

Ideally as part of the quench process, the mapmaker fills in the data then the data gets locked straight away.

Empty descriptions can be filled in though, it's up to the mapmakers to fill these in.