[Abandoned] War of the Roses

[koontz1973]

Koontz - I understand different players will have different opinions - and it is not possible to please everyone - so when it comes down to it - are you telling me that your opinion matters more then mine or anyone elses? and if I do not change things to match your view then this map will not progress?

Not at all. But I asked for the change for three reasons. One, it helps the GP issue I brought up, even though it is a minor one, it is one I fell will help clarify the map and make it simpler to understand. Secondly, you wanted the map to look like an old computer game, well old computer games used the least amount of graphics possible. Sort of like your trees, bushes, castles, and ports. All are identical symbols, the only one is the ships which you have different. Thirdly, to bring the ships in line with the rest of the map like bushes, trees, ports, towns etc etc. As it is really a simple fix, why is it you that is even unwilling to do it?

@ carinswk, Brucewar, Dukasaur, ztodd - none of you have an argument against my position apart from it being a small thing. You are correct and I cannot understand it not being done. Once it is done and if I am wrong, I will be the first to say so, like I have done so many times.

As for the starting locations... They will be easy to find on the map - for they will be the only one with (your colored) number on it... All starting places will have a easily seen counter number of the color of the player playing it - which will pop out since all other numbers of the neutrals will be white..... I do not see why that would be so hard to figure out?? Other games I play with set- or random dropped locations do not need any extra flagging to say your pieces are here so why should this one?

Not in fog games. In fog all you will see is ??, so having the text slightly different on a board that is already crowded to allow players to have a quick reference guide would really help. Right now, if I want to find the opening positions, I have to look in the legend at the shields, read each one for the name of the town and then find it on the board.

Aleena, for some reason, you feel that the things I have brought up for what ever reason will damage your map and the style/look/game play of it. That is not what I intend to do but I need to make sure the map is playable by looking at the map alone. Not all players speak/read English so a map must be playable by looking at it. All maps are like this.

Player-friendliness - Any information you need to know to play a map should be easy to gather by looking at the map itself.
Form Must Follow Function - So important it's on the list twice! Expect to show some flexibility and be prepared to move away from complete geographical accuracy or historical authenticity: the look and theme of the map must be utterly subservient to gameplay and legibility.

koontz

[Aleena]

If you want to see how the ships look facing one direction - I'll do that to please ya... From there we can compare.....

You ask why all the text is not the same size (sounding like you want it all to be) - then you suggest making starting positions a bigger text - which goes against what I thought you first where pointing out - a little confusing your criticisms... I'm cleaning up the text - I'll make starting city text bigger then the rest....

You want all one color (mono-colored) cities and ports..... I'll see what I can do for you there, as well....

I do not fully understand your requests - but maybe when we see them - it will all make since????

Click image to enlarge.

[Aleena]

All those changes where made....

Click image to enlarge.

Thinking about only leaving the names of the starting points and churches - the rest just get an index label....
Like this:

Click image to enlarge.

I do know in the labeled example that I removed Wessle from the map (location 04)
and that wessle is a starting point.... Also the index in the legend does not have the city names filled out yet...

[Dukasaur]

The algebraic treatment of the cities does solve some space problems for you, but I think the full names have more character.

Speaking of names, I don't understand why you went back from Maidstone to Leeds. I was really proud of having suggested that solution to the misunderstandings about Leeds Castle != Leeds City, and going back to it seems, well, exactly like a step backwards.

[Aleena]

I have had another say they prefer Leeds - but since I had two people :
One saying Maidstone would be a better description, while another player is saying they prefer Leeds - I went back to my initial source document which uses Leeds...

To me, a name is just a name - I can go either way.... Maybe we could put it up for voting - and see if the community as a whole has a preference .

[koontz1973]

Aleena, will have a good look over the next few days for you and let you have some notes.

[koontz1973]

Aleena,

Top right legend.
Winning condition cannot have an auto deploy as you win the game before it is given.
Ports and ships.
An easier way to say what you want would be this.

All ports connect to ships in the same water.
All ships are connected in the same/adjacent sea.

Put the city icon with all other icons. Last thing you need is for players to hunt for things in the legend.

koontz

[koontz1973]

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. The map is moved to the Recycling Box and put into Vacation status for the next 6 months. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Cartographer Assistants will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made.

[Aleena]

Click image to enlarge.

People like the city words better then the tags...

Made all ports look a like for clarity (though do not think it was needed)

Areas are still color coordinated by color in their name..

Removed city icon for clarity - since it's only a back ground image behind a shield...

Made starting city text bigger then other city text as suggested.

Changed the auto deploy to a deploy - but do not see the issue for if it happens after the game ends - what difference does it make the GAME IS OVER

Changed port and ship discription to what was requested...

All of which took less then 5 minutes - it's not the progress of the map design that has stalled - but the feed back and the process of this site. ((For I'm sure that more suggestions will be given which could of been given before this 5 minute upgrade))

All these minor issues that you think will confuse the players - (which I have corrected) - makes me feel you do not give enough credit to your players or you think they are not that bright at all.

Koontz1973 since on 9/1 you said you will have a GOOK LOOK over the map and let me know in a few days...
Then on 9/3 you only found 2 minor issues which could be fixed in less then 5 minutes - plus you have not come back with any additional real work needed on the map since, makes me assume that you think the map is perfect from here on out... (correct? if not why not tell me more now "while I'm waiting for it" instead of placing me on a vacation? For it is not worth the time to make a 5 minute fix then have to wait a few weeks for more correction notices which could of been given all ready.)

[thenobodies80]

An update was posted so i'm moving this back to the MF.

Nobodies

[Aleena]

thanks thenobobies80

it appears (in my opinion) based on the last few fixes and updates the text became hard to read again - so I will go ahead and address this issue..

But this will not take long to do - besides the text read ability is there any other suggestions or concerns? All welcome...

[Armandolas]

hello, not sure if someone wrote it before but...Pink names are almost unreadable

[cairnswk]

hello, not sure if someone wrote it before but...Pink names are almost unreadable

Agreed.
Perhaps the name would benefits from a black text border

[koontz1973]

hello, not sure if someone wrote it before but...Pink names are almost unreadable

Agreed.
Perhaps the name would benefits from a black text border

Why are the region names all different sizes and fonts? Could these not be the same size/font. As for the colours, most of them are unreadable.

[Bruceswar]

hello, not sure if someone wrote it before but...Pink names are almost unreadable

Agreed.
Perhaps the name would benefits from a black text border

Why are the region names all different sizes and fonts? Could these not be the same size/font. As for the colours, most of them are unreadable.

They are different sizes due to the city size. .. Just like on any real map

[koontz1973]

hello, not sure if someone wrote it before but...Pink names are almost unreadable

Agreed.
Perhaps the name would benefits from a black text border

Why are the region names all different sizes and fonts? Could these not be the same size/font. As for the colours, most of them are unreadable.

They are different sizes due to the city size. .. Just like on any real map

And if this was a normal map, I could understand, here it just looks a mess.

[Bruceswar]

hello, not sure if someone wrote it before but...Pink names are almost unreadable

Agreed.
Perhaps the name would benefits from a black text border

Why are the region names all different sizes and fonts? Could these not be the same size/font. As for the colours, most of them are unreadable.

They are different sizes due to the city size. .. Just like on any real map

And if this was a normal map, I could understand, here it just looks a mess.

I think it looks just fine. I do agree that some name colors will need fixing.

[Aleena]

First off if you check my last post - I said I know I have issues with TEXT and I'll fix it - just looking for other feed back first...
Yet, no one here so far has offered any additional constructive feed back... So is it just the text then that is the issue?

Koontz1973 you ask why the text different sizes - well because someone named KOONTZ1973 - told me to make them different sizes - BIG size for starting locations and regular size for everything else. ((What kind of constructive criticism is this, when it's exactly what you asked me to do?))

One second - I'll try to go back through the posts to find where it was said...

[Aleena]

The Initial Lords/Ladies starting places are listed on the Legend at the side of the map...
Does Actually say which Lord starts where - since all Lords have multiple affiliations through out the map..

This I can see but it is hard to see/find them on the map. Try increasing the font size or something else on the starting regions to make them easier to find.
koontz

The players themselves play as the Lords and Ladies - so where ever their color appears on the map is their starting location... (should be able to spot your own color troops)
Also gave a list of the names of the starting locations next to the Lord and Ladies's names - for a secondary reference... (Which was this original post by koontz) was commenting on...

So Koontz suggests as you see that I make the starting locations text bigger so that it stands out more then just by the color of the starting player's units and the reference in the legend. - - Now this very thing is what Koontz is pointing out - - It would be nicer if you say that you where wrong on your suggestion, and liked it a different way better - then to be asking why something is a way that you asked me to make it... These comments from koontz seem counter productive...

I appreciate any all all constructive feed back - but please don't tell me to change something then later ask why it was changed... If your going to be nice enough to follow along with my progress and assist with constructive advice - then please stay a little focused on the progress and the changes made. Else we will be stuck in a circular pattern repeating the same functions over and over - which is a waste of your time, my time, and the time of any and all players that are watching the progress of this map.

((It is easy for me to follow along with all the on going drafts - I check the site at least twice a day - usually will have only 3 or 4 new posts in drafts on average - takes me about 15 minutes each time I log in to follow every ones progress - and as an advid follower for every one - It is more then easy to remember what was suggested on which maps and what changes where made.))

[koontz1973]

Aleena, the difference in my suggestions was not what you are making them out to be. When I suggested that you increase the font size for the starting positions, I was not expecting you to double the size like you have. Go and look at Kings Court 2. You will see 3 different sizes on that map and not one of them looks like yours. Region names in black, house names are slightly larger and in a colour and the markings in a reduced opacity. Now this was my idea.

koontz

[DearCyrus]

Aleena, the difference in my suggestions was not what you are making them out to be. When I suggested that you increase the font size for the starting positions, I was not expecting you to double the size like you have. Go and look at Kings Court 2. You will see 3 different sizes on that map and not one of them looks like yours. Region names in black, house names are slightly larger and in a colour and the markings in a reduced opacity. Now this was my idea.

koontz

To Aleena's point Koontz, if you have a specific idea in mind, it is wise not to give a general critique. It is tough enough to go through the foundry process without doubling efforts on somewhat trivial matters. If you want to see something specific, please ask for something specific. I'm sure people will do their best to comply.

Aleena, when I get home, I will see if there is anything I can add to your work list...

[Aleena]

Ty DearCyrus.
Can not wait to see your insight...
Looking forward to actually putting some constructive work back into this map...



I'm not making King's Court 2 or 3 for that matter...
I do not wish my map to look like a majority of the others -
The different looks is part of it's appeal...
I will listen to constructive suggestions - and based on such I'll make changes...
I personally do not see why the starting positions need to be point out or even labeled with different style, color, or size of text..
In the most basic of games - we start where ever our tokens seem to land at the beginning of the game (mostly do to it being random) But if in these cases - starting positions are easily found and worked with - why would it make it any different if done the same way but with static positions ?

[DearCyrus]

First off...

Ty DearCyrus.
Can not wait to see your insight...
Looking forward to actually putting some constructive work back into this map...
(I hope it is worth that hype! lol)

I personally do not see why the starting positions need to be point out or even labeled with different style, color, or size of text..
In the most basic of games - we start where ever our tokens seem to land at the beginning of the game (mostly do to it being random) But if in these cases - starting positions are easily found and worked with - why would it make it any difference if done the same way but with static positions ?
(Amen, Sister)!

That being said, I actually wasn't able to come up with much in the way of constructive criticism. You already know you have some text issues to work out, and unfortunately that may take several 5 minute updates to get people to agree on... Sorry.
I happen to fall in the 50-some-odd % who is not a huge fan of the graphic style you've chosen, but I can appreciate it for what it is... Barring text, I really don't see any reason you should be held up any longer!
If I was trying to fix your text I would consider a very slight drop shadow, just to give it some contrast.

[Aleena]

Ok, ty for your suggestion - I'll spend the next few weeks trying multiple different styles and types - with and with/out outlines, shadows, highlighting, - different color schemes - I'll keep playing with it until I think it looks better...

[DearCyrus]

I look forward to seeing what you come up with!