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CCup4 - KORT Wins!!

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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby iAmCaffeine on Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:54 pm

I feel like I need to try harder at pissing people off so my clan can have constant haters for years to come. Any takers? You all smell of Bogan's laundry!
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Chariot of Fire on Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:02 pm

However, we knew rule was written like that so we respected the rule and did not bash the CD in threads for enforcing it but we rather accepted the decision as gentlemen so that is maybe the reason why most people will remember Dualta's case while nobody remembers thebest712's case.


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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Rodion on Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:45 pm

Leehar wrote:With that said, this criterion will be raised during the deliberation of the next CCup as a topic for deliberation & possible amendment (It has been previously raised whether cup-tied should only last for 1 round etc)


For reference.

viewtopic.php?p=3652392#p3652392

Chuuuuck wrote:
chemefreak wrote:
Rodion wrote:Make it so that they are cup tied, but if they do join another clan they can be allowed to play as long as the opposing clan accepts it (and everytime they win and move forward they'll have to get permission from their next opponent).


The CDs would prefer that "cup tied" be the rule. We don't want clans to have to be the "bad guy" for enforcing the rule. So everyone better get in the clan they want to be in...soon!


I do agree that the other clan shouldn't be involved. I have learned my lesson with that one. The new player may give the clan an advantage but the other clan looks like the bad guy if they don't allow it. I still think the intent of hte rule is to stop gross abuse by trading players or something just to get to the finals. Or merging clans, etc.

I would like to find a way to allow players to play who switch 6 months ago after only playing in the initial round, which we have seen happy a lot in the first two go-rounds.

Maybe everyone would be okay with just letting me use my own judgement in being unbias as possible. I can say for the most part I will allow players to play as long as everything seems legitimate and it appears to be a real switch. But I wouldn't allow any sort of mergers, or large number of pickups or anything


I maintain my position on the issue, but I can understand/respect Chuuuuck/Cheme/Leehar when they prefer that rule to be set in stone rather than flexible (the reasoning of protecting smaller clans is bogus, though, as that was not the intent of the rule).

viewtopic.php?p=3652243#p3652243

Chuuuuck wrote:
Rodion wrote:I like the Cup Tied rule. It can avoid major shenanigans such as clans "merging" just so eliminated players can have a 2nd shot.


I do agree with this. It is why the rule was originally there. We haven't had any real trouble with it though, and then the rule has only affected legitimate players who have switched clans and required them to sit out with their new clan for 6-9 months.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Armandolas on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:15 pm

I believe if that rule exists, than it should also apply to clans that were not eliminated in the competition.

The player loutil is a good example how it did "not protect" the "smaller" clans.
MM eliminated WAR making them face IA in the next stage. So that player left MM, waited one round and after the predictable result of that war he joined IA to face TSM in the quarter finals.

I do actually agree with the rule. Imo it protects more the bigger clans from those kind of departures.By now some players from ATL,IA,OSA or Fallen could have been persuaded by other big clans to help them win the cup
It does not protect small clans.I believe if a player leaves a small clan to join a bigger one its a decision made by ambition, not because of a cup only.It will allways be like that.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby laughingcavalier on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:19 pm

I do believe this cup-tied rule is an example of us all taking ourselves WAAAY too seriously..... we're not a multi-million dollar sports league, we're just here to have fun. Have a rule to stop gross abuses if you like, and if you will frame it with some flexibility, but to lock out players who are genuinely just looking for a new clan to play with after their own clan got kicked out months ago.... that's just overkill.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby iAmCaffeine on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:24 pm

laughingcavalier wrote:I do believe this cup-tied rule is an example of us all taking ourselves WAAAY too seriously..... we're not a multi-million dollar sports league, we're just here to have fun. Have a rule to stop gross abuses if you like, and if you will frame it with some flexibility, but to lock out players who are genuinely just looking for a new clan to play with after their own clan got kicked out months ago.... that's just overkill.


Don't be stupid! This is fucking serious business!
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby skillfull on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:36 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:
laughingcavalier wrote:I do believe this cup-tied rule is an example of us all taking ourselves WAAAY too seriously..... we're not a multi-million dollar sports league, we're just here to have fun. Have a rule to stop gross abuses if you like, and if you will frame it with some flexibility, but to lock out players who are genuinely just looking for a new clan to play with after their own clan got kicked out months ago.... that's just overkill.


Don't be stupid! This is fucking serious business!

Οοοps!
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby iAmCaffeine on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:58 pm

skillfull wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:
laughingcavalier wrote:I do believe this cup-tied rule is an example of us all taking ourselves WAAAY too seriously..... we're not a multi-million dollar sports league, we're just here to have fun. Have a rule to stop gross abuses if you like, and if you will frame it with some flexibility, but to lock out players who are genuinely just looking for a new clan to play with after their own clan got kicked out months ago.... that's just overkill.


Don't be stupid! This is fucking serious business!

Οοοps!


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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Denise on Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:12 am

friendly1 wrote:
Denise wrote:I agree with Foxy, too. Always in the past it was left up to the two clans involved to hash out if the rule should be enforced and never was the privilege of a clan to control this aspect of their war taken away.

I understand the need for consistency and if this has been the answer to all clans wishing to use an ineligible player, then I wouldn't want it changed this late in the competition. However, I strongly believe this is an example of the CD's taking too much control and think they should leave these types of things to the clans involved, unless for some reason the clans can't reach an amicable decision. I hope that we can change this rule for the next CCup, or do away with it completely.

A little off topic but why should the CD's take it upon themselves to try to prevent a player from changing clans if they want to? This rule has never made any sense to me.


I like what the CDs have done! They are enforcing the rule in place, and explaining that the rule needs to be reconsidered, not the enforcement of it. I do regret that this rule has prevented some players eligibility in CCup (and there has been a few) and I hope the rule is changed for CCup5 along with some others. But bashing the CDs for rules that exist makes no sense, or at least doesn't make sense to me. Course I'm pretty easily confused and rather moronic at the best of times...


I did not bash the CD's. How is saying I understand the ruling and agree with it in this instance bashing the CD's? I respect and appreciate everything they do for the clan world. I merely gave my opinion that I like the idea of less control from them and feel if two clans can run their own affairs without CD interference, I would prefer that. sheesh
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby elfish_lad on Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:27 am

Gawd. Coffeeman has (shit, I had to actually bring up my medal total to learn this) 8 more medals than me!!! And LC... well, he has a far cooler user name than the one I chose for an online moniker 20 years ago when I was a Zelda freak. Bass-turd.

How about this: Uh...

Never-mind.

More fun to read the flames. Carry on.

Yeah.

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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Dako on Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:54 am

How in the world someone can even think that top clans poach players from lower clans to help them in CCup's later rounds or plot for smaller clans to disband? Are you serious? Nobody does that. This idea of protecting small clans is completely bogus.

Anyway, I don't think that this cup-tied rule protects anyone from gross abuse. If we drop it I am fairly sure that we will not see gross abuse and many players clan-hopping during the cup.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Arama86n on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:01 am

hyposquasher wrote:You all will have to forgive angola. While we were a bit surprised at the request for an extension, angola is a big Seahawks fan. So he had been on a steady diet of beer and adrenaline all day. By the time he came here to post, the Super Bowl was over. He had shed his clothes and ran 4 laps around his house. So the combination of cold and black-out level inebriation may have made him a little punchy :)


Thanks for your post Hypo.
I saw that post yesterday and was like "WTF??". DIdn't want to waste energy commenting it and getting into a discussion about it though.
Happy to see both you and angola explain that our dear friend Alcohol was at play, as I'm hoping this will be a war in good spirits, with goodnatured ribbing and poking, but no serious insults.
I'd lice to think both ACE and TOFU are better than that.

/Arama
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby benga on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:24 am

Leehar wrote:Some general announcements.

The CD's have graciously allowed the 2 day extension requested by Tofu & the Ace-Tofu war will have games exchanged on the 4th of Feb.


Unfortunately at the same time, the CD's have not so graciously disallowed dualta from competing in the war, despite Ace agreeing to the waiver of the player eligibility criterion.
As always, slight rule adjustments are subject to CD approval, and in this instance it was felt by the CD team that the Player eligibility rule was outside the bounds of the adjustable settings regulations (which relate more to the likes of changing the tiebreaker map, decreasing/increasing the trench limitation etc)
It was felt that the Player Eligibility rule provides a crucial protection to smaller clans against the common ailment of 'sailing for greener pastures'. While I sympathise with dualta in my personal capacity on the disbandment of his clan, the player eligibility criterion as it is currently written has been used & previously conveyed throughout this current competition as a hidebound rule meant to dissuade more mercenary actions, and it was felt necessary to enforce it as written.

With that said, this criterion will be raised during the deliberation of the next CCup as a topic for deliberation & possible amendment (It has been previously raised whether cup-tied should only last for 1 round etc)


LOL

last year kort had I think 3 players that were cup tied play vs us+several emergency sits
either allow clans to agree amongst themselves or apply same to all

AND

ACE gets to have their training group, even if at first glance I don't see they have at least 50% of non ACE players in it, OSA can't

the less I read, the happier I get :evil:
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby josko.ri on Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:34 am

benga, last year were different rules and negotiations about player eligibility was done among clans on player-by-player basis.
Obviously your clan agreed that 3 of our players can play, and the agreement possibility was supported by rules.
Rules are now different.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Doc_Brown on Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:51 am

josko.ri wrote:benga, last year were different rules and negotiations about player eligibility was done among clans on player-by-player basis.
Obviously your clan agreed that 3 of our players can play, and the agreement possibility was supported by rules.
Rules are now different.

Actually Josko, if you go back and look you'll find that the player eligibility rule this year is identical to the one that was in place last year. The rule about clans negotiating rule changes is also the same. The only thing that has changed is that previous TOs were willing to give clans more latitude in their negotiations than are the CDs his year.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby josko.ri on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:32 am

Doc_Brown wrote:The only thing that has changed is that previous TOs were willing to give clans more latitude in their negotiations than are the CDs his year.

Yes, and that is called "rules" because in last year and every previous year in rules it was written that everything (not only player eligibility) can be negotiated and if clans agree can be changed. Last year it was private event, now is CDs event, and here is major difference, as cheme explained.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Doc_Brown on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:46 am

Here are the rules for CC3:
Player Eligibility
We will be playing with an amended "cup tied" rule. The rules will be as follows:

    -If a player plays for a clan in a given round, they are cup-tied for that round and cannot play for another clan in that round
    -If the old clan of a player loses the round in which the player has played, that player is considered "eliminated" with their old clan and cannot play for another clan for the rest of the tournament
    -If the old clan of a player wins the last round in which the player has played with them, then they are not considered cup-tied at the conclusion of that war and are free to play with any other clan at the beginning of the next round of the tournament

As has been allowed in the past, each clan war can adjust the rules slightly to their liking if both clans agree on the adjusted rules before any games are started and they get my approval.


Here are the rules for CC4:
Player Eligibility
We will be playing with an amended "cup tied" rule. The rules will be as follows:

    -If a player plays for a clan in a given round, they are cup-tied for that round and cannot play for another clan in that round
    -If the old clan of a player loses the round in which the player has played, that player is considered "eliminated" with their old clan and cannot play for another clan for the rest of the tournament
    -If the old clan of a player wins the last round in which the player has played with them, then they are not considered cup-tied at the conclusion of that war and are free to play with any other clan at the beginning of the next round of the tournament

As has been allowed in the past, each clan war can adjust the rules slightly to their liking if both clans agree on the adjusted rules before any games are started and they get the CD's approval.


The rules, as written, are identical. The CDs have decided not to allow clans to negotiate the player eligibility rule. So be it. Whether we think the decision is right or wrong, it has been made and we can respect that. It's now publicly laid out so there will be no confusion about it for the rest of this competition, and it can be discussed publicly whether it should be permitted as a negotiable point next time.
Last edited by Doc_Brown on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Dako on Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:48 am

CCup4:
As has been allowed in the past, each clan war can adjust the rules slightly to their liking if both clans agree on the adjusted rules before any games are started and they get the CD's approval.

CCup3:
As has been allowed in the past, each clan war can adjust the rules slightly to their liking if both clans agree on the adjusted rules before any games are started and they get my approval.


Please find 3 differences.

And I thought that the words "As has been allowed in the past" mean something. Well, not really :(.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:48 am

Basically a shit decision then.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby jj3044 on Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:01 pm

benga wrote:ACE gets to have their training group, even if at first glance I don't see they have at least 50% of non ACE players in it, OSA can't

the less I read, the happier I get :evil:

That wasn't the case last week before we cleaned up the members in there... don't worry we are actively adding new members to that group, it should only be like that for a short time.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby hyposquasher on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:16 pm

Arama86n wrote:
hyposquasher wrote:You all will have to forgive angola. While we were a bit surprised at the request for an extension, angola is a big Seahawks fan. So he had been on a steady diet of beer and adrenaline all day. By the time he came here to post, the Super Bowl was over. He had shed his clothes and ran 4 laps around his house. So the combination of cold and black-out level inebriation may have made him a little punchy :)


Thanks for your post Hypo.
I saw that post yesterday and was like "WTF??". DIdn't want to waste energy commenting it and getting into a discussion about it though.
Happy to see both you and angola explain that our dear friend Alcohol was at play, as I'm hoping this will be a war in good spirits, with goodnatured ribbing and poking, but no serious insults.
I'd lice to think both ACE and TOFU are better than that.

/Arama


No worries :)

We've never spoken directly until now, so although this is a strange place to ask: what does your name mean? I've always wondered...
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Chariot of Fire on Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:13 am

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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Arama86n on Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:24 am

hyposquasher wrote:
Arama86n wrote:
hyposquasher wrote:You all will have to forgive angola. While we were a bit surprised at the request for an extension, angola is a big Seahawks fan. So he had been on a steady diet of beer and adrenaline all day. By the time he came here to post, the Super Bowl was over. He had shed his clothes and ran 4 laps around his house. So the combination of cold and black-out level inebriation may have made him a little punchy :)


Thanks for your post Hypo.
I saw that post yesterday and was like "WTF??". DIdn't want to waste energy commenting it and getting into a discussion about it though.
Happy to see both you and angola explain that our dear friend Alcohol was at play, as I'm hoping this will be a war in good spirits, with goodnatured ribbing and poking, but no serious insults.
I'd like to think both ACE and TOFU are better than that.

/Arama


No worries :)

We've never spoken directly until now, so although this is a strange place to ask: what does your name mean? I've always wondered...


For many years I played an online game called Utopia, one of the oldest browser games on the net, created in '98 I believe. I was called AramA there, one couldn't use "á" in province names so I made the last "a" large. I came up with the name back in 2001 in an attempt to make a name that sounded elvish for my little province :lol:

When I made a CC account I had no idea that we would be forced to use our username as our bloody screen name, I know it's rather common these days, but back then It seemed to me one usually had a choice, and that username was personal and not to be seen by anyone but me, so just wrote "Arama86n" on the fly...
I'm guessing I'm FAR from the only one on CC to get caught out by that one!

Arama86n... doesn't exactly roll off the tongue now does it... :D
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Leehar on Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:57 pm

In response to Doc & Dako.

As I mentioned in my post, and cheme mentioned in his, both those facets were taken into consideration.

Firstly, in the previous competition when it was subject to the TO's decision, it wasn't within his prerogative to look out for all clans & as such, immaterial whether 2 mega-clans took players from smaller clans or not; rather the consideration was to leave it to the clans purview on whether the addition was strictly beneficial in that specific contest. That decision does not take into account the 3rd clan that did lose a crucial player, and may subsequently be struggling as a result.
This rule is unlikely to affect that in Isolation, and indeed the 3rd clan may have been struggling irregardless, but together with our mentoring project (which we hope to commence shortly) we are working to improve the clan scene at a grass-roots level . So ultimately, our interpretation is that while there are obvious benefits for a player to be lured towards a top flight clan, that is offset by him being limited from playing in the competition where his clan was previously eliminated & which perhaps contributed to his desire to strike out for a new challenge rather than being involved in enabling his own clan to succeed, simultaneously enriching the clan world by increasing competitiveness across the board rather than amongst any specific elite grouping. Whereupon the rule becomes a minor yet crucial cog in this environment.
What we can tell you is that the ruling has been applied consistently throughout this competition, and it's a bit disingenuous to allow it at this point. If there is a desire for changing it then it needs to be done prospectively for CC5.


Secondly, Doc Browns quote is somewhat misleading, because the adjustable settings regulation is in fact bracketed under the Clan Wars spoiler & not eligibility. It doesn't precisely make a significant difference, but as I mentioned in my earlier post, it is our view that those are decisions to be easily taken for smaller items like changing the trench limitation & tiebreaker map. We felt the larger decision on player eligibility couldn't simply be rubber stamped, and did require further deliberation, where it was unanimous to apply the player eligibility criterion as written.


I know Doc also pm'd me that I supported the inter-clan agreement when it was taken in CCup3, but in that competition I was neither Head CD nor were the CD's involved in the Competition so I was only commenting on the display of good sportsmanship between Tofu & Kort (We unfortunately saw how long that lasted)
Perhaps I could have taken the easy decision here, and said because my clan was ok with it, there's no reason to disallow it, but unfortunately being Head CD does require making the tough decisions. I felt that :
a.) The ruling was applied consistently (as written) during the current competition & it was disingenous to change it at this current date &
b.) with the current struggles smaller clans have been facing, there is a significant lure of Top Clans playing in advanced stages of competitions, and as such the rule is based on sound principles to mitigate that effect somewhat.
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Re: CCup4 - TOFU vs ACE and KoRT vs TSM

Postby Foxglove on Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Thanks for the reasonable explanations of the CD motivations, Leehar.

I will say that I don't think your adherence to this rule for the sake of attempting to keep strong players with less strong clans will work as you intend it to. Once a person decides to leave their clan (or guild or tribe or meta - it's the same in every type of game that allows player groups), they will find a way to leave. They won't stay just so they can repeat the same experience for the next year.

P.S. Clan members can be male or female - perhaps you can make gender neutral general statements in the future. It's a pet peeve of mine. Your English is entirely sufficient to the task. :)
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