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Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

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Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby rousseau72 on Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:08 pm

Hi everyone, (Updated since I forgot to add a few key items)

This is a great game and there is lots of advice out there. I still have a lot to learn myself with only 106 games but I did not find the advice I was looking for so here is a short list of things that I did so far to get me to Colonel

1) Know your tactics - the key here is thinking through what is the most likely response from the opponent? Don't just be rationale about it, think about the opponent and think what type of player are they? I check out their ratings and see if they are rated more for balanced behavior or reckless.

2) Know what type of game works best for you. For me, my style favors the following game: Standard (not freestyle), no fog, reinforcements chained or unlimited, flat rate, automatic deployment, and 4-5 players. For me this also is generally the game that minimizes luck as a dominant factor. Sure escalation and freestyle take a lot of skill but the timing and the requirements to stay online are troublesome for most. Also, luck can be a determinant with escalation since its too much up to the cards - did you wipe the other guy out to get cards? Did you get a set in 3 etc etc.

3) Know the Map - super well. Which way do the attack flows go? D day favors the ships and the 3rd crusades favor the european power positions for example. Also, the edges are almost always better than the middle - civil war strongly favors Texas/Northeast and ww2 Europe favors Russia or France/UK. Know the details as well - the Napoleon map connects Italy with Switzerland, for example. Getting control of choke points is key as well. Therefore, in Napoleon if you have France and Spain, adding Italy actually decreases the number of choke points. In Classic, its why Oceania is favored with its single choke point. Continue your attacks to drive to the next best choke point.

4) Timing is Key - when do you deploy your cards? When do you decide to put up a truce or end one? When do you move from a defensive to an offensive stance? If you stay static (stick with the same style) I think its not a good approach at all since the game conditions change and therefore your response needs to as well.

5) Troop preservation and increase is more important as a focus in general than keeping and breaking bonuses. So the practical applications of this strategy?
A) Don't go on these silly excursions (golden chef special) where you break multiple people's bonuses and don't further your own strategic position. It may feel good breaking bonuses but you've also lost your army in the process with nothing to show for it. B) Do let the guy who is intent on breaking your x bonus break the bonus if you can not prevent him from doing it. In other words, if he has a 7 stack and you can only defend it with at most a 4 stack then just defend it with 1, if you know he wants to break your bonus. Keep the troops off the bonus edges until you can move in enough troops to silence his aggressive stance.
C) Keep the important borders quiet of activity. Brazil/Africa or Baden/Burgendy - make sure that you are not continually warring with another party over a border like this. If your opponent wont let you keep it and you cant knock him out, then just withdraw. Don't fight multiple times over this - it will bring both of you down relative to the others.

6) Diplomacy - you've got a chat box out there - use it! My only rant is people who get mad for "giving directions" or saying x. OF COURSE! Its a game and highlighting what is a good win-win for both sides is part of the game. The other player wont do what you say unless its to his advantage as well. If you want a silent game, then play chess or some other game. Try your best to keep your agreements - and make them specific. Say ONLY a truce between X and Y or it ends in 2 turns etc.

7) Know your Strategic Options - I list out a few options that people should consider at any point in a game. In all of the options below, you should be preserving troop strength, achieve the right positioning in the map, and maintaining your diplomacy. Note that the strategy may change in the course of a game - it always depends on the situation and how diplomacy is going as well. The following are all for multiple player games. Strategy for 1-1? Get good luck :)

Options:
A) The Alpha Male - Get out in an early lead, follow that lead and aggressively counterattack anyone that threatens you. Be extra nice to people who are playing along as well.
B) The Sidekick - you know that going against the Alpha male is going to get you knocked out. The others are not playing nice against Alpha Male so you offer friendship. The key here is knowing when to go your own way AND knowing that there may be a time when Alpha Male will get so weak (because he is the focus of attacks) that you may have your day in the sun.
C) The Suicide Bomber - its not a strategy I like but it is an option of last resort that you should consider. Stack all of your forces on a single territory, keep edge strength to 1 and then announce a full counterattack if someone attacks you. (picture all the forces on Lima/Peru instead of Brazil/Venezula on Classic) Often you can not win, but you can determine who wins. This knowledge and using it through diplomacy can get you to a point where you may be able to recover
D) Sherman's Marching Army - sometimes you have the troop strength (its the key) but not the map position. You are caught in the middle between two players etc etc. Put all of your troops on one territory and MARCH! get to a new position in the map where you can defend and restart over.
E) Alcatraz - you sit on a piece of territory nobody wants and just build up strength. You let others war it out over the bonuses and focus only on your troop strength. I don't personally like this strategy (is a bit cowardly and passive for me) HOWEVER, in certain maps like Feudal - I think its a valid strategy and one that works given the bonus structure.

Options that do not work:
A) The Terminator - this guy goes around and hits the guy's bonuses who just got to a slight lead. This can be great as a tactic but as a strategy it just ends up weakening yourself. Don't focus on breaking bonuses - focus on building up your position. Borders where the wars don't stop will kill you. Playing on the border of a terminator is tough. Honestly, I think that the only way is to eliminate them or do a Sherman's move. The Alpha male is not as focused on the opponent bonuses but more on their strategic position and their troop levels
B) Mr Revenge - counterattack if it builds your position or if you think it will change the behavior going forward of your opponent. Don't do so out of pure vengeance. However, I will admit that I have been Mr Revenge in a couple of games - sometimes it IS about making the guy you don't like lose - even if you lose more points. This IS a game after all and we are human beings!

8) Take advantage of Game Resources - I like this game enhancement called BOB viewtopic.php?f=527&t=91386. It provides options on maps to let you see what territories can be attacked, clearly see the colors of the neighboring territories, take snapshots of game maps (useful for team/fog of war), show additional statistics, etc.

I would welcome advanced advice as well - please chime in with your own recommendations!

Ted (I'm not French btw)
Last edited by rousseau72 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:32 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v1.0

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:19 pm

I have nothing to add, really. Just wanted to say I agree with you on all 5 points.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v1.0

Postby rousseau72 on Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:14 am

Hi all, I have to post this because I did get the colonel rank in 106 but then lost it at game 107!

No worries though, I'll get my hat back soon. Wish me luck! (just didn't want the inevitable posting of why my ranking is a colonel now.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:05 pm

Great advice.

Question for rousseau72 -

Given that you spend so much time analyzing these things, doesn't it annoy you when you lose games due to somebody convincing someone else to hit you when it was obviously not in their best interest to do so? You can't be online to counter opponents' propaganda all the time, and this is when you suffer in the diplomacy-based games.

Of course, if you don't mind when it happens or or it doesn't happen to you often enough to annoy you, that's fine. Just wanted to share the reason why I stopped playing diplomacy-based settings.

I guess it's a philosophical thing - I'd rather lose to bad luck than because of someone's bad advice to someone else to kill me. Mainly it's because I know that in the long run, I will be lucky just as often as unlucky - so an individual instance of bad luck is nothing to get upset over.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby Crazyirishman on Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:28 pm

Very well summed up. I play very similar settings in singles 4-person flat rate foggy chained,with the random map feature. I couple things I found that help are early on try to lose at little troops as possible, even if it means taking crappy position on the board to conserve your men. Try to maximize your deploy with minimal regions. people tend to only look at the number of regions you have no matter whether you have a bonus or not and use that to base their attacks. If playing with fog, don't be afraid to go after a large bonus or the biggest bonus because a lot of players even good players will think 'he's not that stupid to try that' and you can snag it for a few rounds before they realize and break. The hide in the corner technique picking off 1's to take easy cards for later on, while not upsetting the people around you, is another one that I'm quite fond of. There's also what I like to call the 'incaseshit' stack, where you play regularly but keep a medium sized stack away from the rest of your force in case shit goes wrong. Also a good player can recognize whether a game under these setting will last longer than 15-20 rounds and start gearing up ahead of time to get better positioning. There's a couple more little ways to play these settings that ive seen work, but I'm going to keep those on th DL
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby Commander62890 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:20 pm

FarangDemon wrote:I guess it's a philosophical thing - I'd rather lose to bad luck than because of someone's bad advice to someone else to kill me. Mainly it's because I know that in the long run, I will be lucky just as often as unlucky - so an individual instance of bad luck is nothing to get upset over.

Yes, +1


My problem with diplomacy games is that I'm always that guy who gets out to an early lead and has all the noobs gang up on him. I know that good players avoid this by playing it slow and always being #2 in the game... but I just can't help wanting to have the best position and the most armies.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby rousseau72 on Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:55 am

Hi FarengDemon, Crazy Irishman and Commander62890,

Thanks for all of your feedback.

1) FarengDemon - I know the frustration that you have with people who go along with the not-so-rationale advice of some other player to attack you. I guess my reaction though is more muted than yours for the following reasons:
a) It doesn't happen that often for me. When it does, its not fun because all of the players in the room in those games are anti-me. In those few games, the bad reputation seems to occur from one player starting a "anti-rousseau72 (my handle)" campaign. Not sure how to stop that at all.
b) I'm an active poster in my games - its not possible to be on all the time - but do try to put your diplomatic messages out there. Be one of the more active posters in your game. I get these guys who accuse me of all sorts of stuff - again you need to have a thick skin with these games.
c) The key to diplomacy is not in the people who do something against you or do something for you since few people follow this in any case. The true power is truces along major borders.

2) Crazy Irishman - I agree with many of your ideas on strategic options. I use some myself but did not write it up yet. (like keeping troops away from the front) I think I'll post some of your ideas and a few other updates in a version 3.0

3) Commander62890 - I think your going after the early lead is good. I call that the "Alpha Male" position. I actually end up winning most of the games when I take an early lead on. The secret:
a) Be VERY nice to people who are nice to you. Or even others that you have nothing to do with. VERY nice means not trying to take advantage of your lead and giving them a more than fair deal.
b) Be VERY hard on someone who tries to take you down. I have learned that its probably best to take them out of the game entirely if possible - probably over three turns.
c) Know when to pare back your position to a reduced footprint/high density defensive position. My favorite game of mine was on Napoleon where I had taken an early lead with Germany/Austria/Scandinavia. I was surrounded by 3 other players who decided that they wanted to take out the leader. I gave up the Rhine confederation/Scandinavia and even Austria but preserved troops strength. As I guessed, the coalition fell apart over how to divide the spoils. After they attacked each other it was easy to win with my lead in troop count still.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby bob72 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:31 am

Nice post took me 100s of games to realise some of your points.

I always find I'm the alpha male agressive player since I don't agree with diplomacy as it is usually loud mouths bullying other players into letting them win.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby rousseau72 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:13 am

Hi Bob72, Thanks for your comment but I disagree with the diplomacy point. You can ignore diplomacy if you want (at your own risk) BUT, the game should be played with what others will do in mind. How do you know what is on their mind if you don't talk to them?

I understand though that some people really agree with you. I wish that was an option when you set up the game - Tick yes for diplomacy or no for no diplomacy. No diplomacy would allow only chat before and after the game. Diplomacy only works because another person stands to gain from your deal/diplomacy. There is skill in figuring out what that is for different players.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby FarangDemon on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:30 pm

Commander62890 wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:I guess it's a philosophical thing - I'd rather lose to bad luck than because of someone's bad advice to someone else to kill me. Mainly it's because I know that in the long run, I will be lucky just as often as unlucky - so an individual instance of bad luck is nothing to get upset over.

Yes, +1


My problem with diplomacy games is that I'm always that guy who gets out to an early lead and has all the noobs gang up on him. I know that good players avoid this by playing it slow and always being #2 in the game... but I just can't help wanting to have the best position and the most armies.


It seems we've found our niche then with clan warfare. No diplomacy. Just skull-crushing. :D
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby Crazyirishman on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:18 pm

FarangDemon wrote:
Commander62890 wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:I guess it's a philosophical thing - I'd rather lose to bad luck than because of someone's bad advice to someone else to kill me. Mainly it's because I know that in the long run, I will be lucky just as often as unlucky - so an individual instance of bad luck is nothing to get upset over.

Yes, +1


My problem with diplomacy games is that I'm always that guy who gets out to an early lead and has all the noobs gang up on him. I know that good players avoid this by playing it slow and always being #2 in the game... but I just can't help wanting to have the best position and the most armies.


It seems we've found our niche then with clan warfare. No diplomacy. Just skull-crushing. :D


Theres a very delicate point that you can reach a big enough lead early in the game to seal the deal. If your going to try to be number one you have to try to do it before anyone can reasonably challenge you for that top spot, and once you get over that point then its just cruise to victory
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby rousseau72 on Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:38 am

I agree that taking the number one spot is very delicate. Thats the key word. A lot of people seem to approach the number one position as a ruthless grab for power. I think that is where they lose it.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby pickleofdoom on Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:30 pm

rousseau72 wrote: did you wipe the other guy out to get cards?

Yep.
:)
Must have been pure luck ;)

Nice hat Rousseau!
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby Gen. Ramsarelli on Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:51 pm

Im only playing devils advocate here since noone else is! :)

Diplomacy....truces....negotiations.... in my opinion, 'war' is not only about who has the biggest guns, the most men, the better field advantage but it is also a matter of psychological warfare. If you can negotiate your way out of a jam or talk another player into doing some of your dirty-work, all the more power to you! For cryin' out loud...ITS WAR!!! I don't recall there being an 'etiquette guide' handed out at the beginning of each game saying "Play nice and stick to the beaten path!" You cannot win a war without preservation and sometimes things dont go your way and you find yourself on the short end and you need a boost to keep from going out. Your dice and your troop count/placement arent the only factors in your success. The other players are also a tool for you to use IF you are able to 'use' them. Now don't get me wrong, Im all for a toe-to-toe, knock-down-dragout fisticuff thats straightforward fighting BUT, where is the skill in pushing a button and letting a random generator pick your dice roll for you? If you have a silver-tongue and can 'persuade' the enemy(ies) into defeat....now THAT is skill and should be awarded with a win!
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby rousseau72 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:41 am

Hi Gen. Ramsarelli,
You are not the devil's advocate here! I completely agree with you. The chat box is there so that you can put forth your view. I think diplomacy is best used in certain situations:
1) There is a new leader and no one is standing up to the new leader to stop them. You can propose a coalition
2) Proposing a quiet border truce with another player
3) Proposing a very specific attack - "Ill take out territory X if you take out territory y"
I find that requests otherwise many times will be mistaken for "you are getting me to do your bidding for you". As you point out, this is the purpose - BUT people will not listen anyway even if its for their own good.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby Augustus Maximus on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:19 am

I think you will also find that often people will no longer respond to diplomacy because it leaves you far too open to treachery. More often than not I will be attacked by the person proposing a diplomatic truce within 2 to 3 turns after accepting it. That is why I no longer respond to any sort of diplomacy.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby rousseau72 on Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:08 pm

Hi Augustus Maximus, I can understand the frustration with diplomacy. HOWEVER, I think people just need to define better ways to agree. I replied earlier on where Diplomacy works better - what do you think of that?

I have also discovered something very recently - which is that the one turn notice truce is naturally not a good agreement.

Here is why - the person ending the truce is the one who gets the first attack on the other player! You say, ok Red truce is over. Then, red sits there and you attack him next. Its naturally unstable. I have a better proposal - the person calling for the end of the truce is the first one attacked. He calls for the end but the opposing player CAN attack but is not necessarily planning for an attack. Its a fairer way of doing a truce. Any other opinions on this?
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby Augustus Maximus on Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:19 pm

You are presupposing that the end is called. More typically what I have seen, not always with me involved, is that the player that asked for the truce will just attack. Usually they will do so too early, well before the "common" enemy is actually defeated. The truce will last 2 or 3 turns, the leader will have been weakened, but not to the point of being unable to retaliate, and they wind up winning the game anyway. If there was a standard format to declaring a truce, such as your proposing, then yes, truces will work better and more of them will be made.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby rousseau72 on Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:57 am

Ok, Augustus - I think I will post something on truces. I think that it means too many different things to different people so there is value in a common understanding for that.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby FarangDemon on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:01 pm

Gen. Ramsarelli wrote: Now don't get me wrong, Im all for a toe-to-toe, knock-down-dragout fisticuff thats straightforward fighting BUT, where is the skill in pushing a button and letting a random generator pick your dice roll for you?


The skill is in where you decide to place your troops, where you attack, how much you attack, and where you fort. ](*,)

And yes, diplomacy is, of course, also a skill.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby zimmah on Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:47 pm

rousseau72 wrote:c) Know when to pare back your position to a reduced footprint/high density defensive position. My favorite game of mine was on Napoleon where I had taken an early lead with Germany/Austria/Scandinavia. I was surrounded by 3 other players who decided that they wanted to take out the leader. I gave up the Rhine confederation/Scandinavia and even Austria but preserved troops strength. As I guessed, the coalition fell apart over how to divide the spoils. After they attacked each other it was easy to win with my lead in troop count still.


very smart, you seem like a good player indeed.

was that game foggy or sunny?

also, do you play team games?
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby rousseau72 on Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:57 am

Hi Zimmah,

The pare back stratetgy is something I dont see too many others do. As a tactic its good too - sometimes its better to pull completely out of one part of the map. In the vacuum you create, there may be a war between former allies. That particular game was sunny - I don't ever play with fog if I can help it.

I do play team games - I had a lot of invites after I posted this. I am discovering though that I like individual games better. Players styles vary quite a bit from your own and I think its easier in a way to just be responsible for your own fate.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby Gen. Ramsarelli on Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:53 pm

FarangDemon wrote:
Gen. Ramsarelli wrote: Now don't get me wrong, Im all for a toe-to-toe, knock-down-dragout fisticuff thats straightforward fighting BUT, where is the skill in pushing a button and letting a random generator pick your dice roll for you?


The skill is in where you decide to place your troops, where you attack, how much you attack, and where you fort. ](*,)

And yes, diplomacy is, of course, also a skill.





I was kinda considering those factors a given but yes, there is definitely skill and technique with those variables.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby zimmah on Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:08 pm

rousseau72 wrote:Hi Zimmah,

The pare back stratetgy is something I dont see too many others do. As a tactic its good too - sometimes its better to pull completely out of one part of the map. In the vacuum you create, there may be a war between former allies. That particular game was sunny - I don't ever play with fog if I can help it.

I do play team games - I had a lot of invites after I posted this. I am discovering though that I like individual games better. Players styles vary quite a bit from your own and I think its easier in a way to just be responsible for your own fate.


i actually prefer team games because you can socialize on a new level with friends. i do however prefer to play with teammates that communicate and preferably player i know.

having different styles can also be an advantage, because you can more easily switch your tactics in the middle of a game if you see your oponents respond well to some kind of tactic, but might have a weak spot for another tactic (two know more then one).

also, i don't always trust diplomacy on non-teams.
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Re: Getting to Colonel in 106 games without freestyle v2.0

Postby sheepwn on Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:05 pm

C) The Suicide Bomber - its not a strategy I like but it is an option of last resort that you should consider. Stack all of your forces on a single territory, keep edge strength to 1 and then announce a full counterattack if someone attacks you. (picture all the forces on Lima/Peru instead of Brazil/Venezula on Classic) Often you can not win, but you can determine who wins. This knowledge and using it through diplomacy can get you to a point where you may be able to recover
D) Sherman's Marching Army - sometimes you have the troop strength (its the key) but not the map position. You are caught in the middle between two players etc etc. Put all of your troops on one territory and MARCH! get to a new position in the map where you can defend and restart over.


This works very well on Japan in classic as it's a territory no one really quite wants or needs and while you build you should try and grab easy territories with 1 troop defending it to gather cards. I only really suggest this if you get mauled in the beginning by the risk gods and you are in dead last. I found it also works fairly well on Vienna in 1914 Europe since no one ever tries to take Austria and you can slowly branch out and take Italy from there.
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