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ROME: CIVIL WAR v31

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Re: [Abandoned] - Caesar Mortuus Est

Postby iancanton on Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:19 pm

[moved] back to the drafting room!

what's the version number of the latest image? i notice that the dagger has gone.

i've rescinded the gameplay stamp for the time being, as is best practice for revived maps, to ensure that the gameplay meets current criteria. why would anyone attack the gates unless necessary, since the bonus is more difficult than all others while being worth less per region held? i suggest +5 for every 4 gates and +3 for any group of 3 non-gate symbols, to provide a small positive differential.

the tiber is one of those classically-famous rivers that is traditionally named without the word river being added.

ian. :)
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Re: [Abandoned] - Caesar Mortuus Est

Postby HitRed on Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:40 pm

*fireworks* *music* *dancing*

Back from the dead! Resurrection!


Congrats Minister X =D>
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Re: [Abandoned] - Caesar Mortuus Est

Postby HitRed on Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:06 pm

Will the Is the dagger reappear? Stay tuned everyone!
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v26

Postby Minister X on Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:36 pm

Thank-you Ian!

I've edited the first post - please tell me if it's not okay.

We're now on v26. It's possible that v25 was skipped but 26 comports with my own version numbering so let's please go with it.

There was never any "dagger". That was a gladius (a short sword). We can discuss its reappearance. 8-)

I have no problem eliminating "river".

The original post included the following:
BONUSES
Bonus for every three territories of any type (as normal)
Bonus for every four gates
Bonus for getting all three of any of five different special territories, designated by icons and spread across the map

So if you own four gates do you get the bonus for that PLUS the bonus for owning three of any type?? Is it +4 as per the current map or +5 because it's four plus one? If you own three matching thematic terts the same question applies.

The issue of bonuses is going to be a complex one on this map and, I suspect, not settled before significant play-testing. Consider: the five thematic groups of three each have all terts separated by a goodly distance. Isn't it harder to hold onto them than a group of four that all connect and can reinforce/protect each other? But not all gate terts come in such groups. Five of them are all alone, not connected directly to any other gate. There's a group of three at the southwest edge, another group of three just southeast of them, a group of five center high (Fontinal to Colline), and then from the Flaminian in the northwest corner all the way around and down to the Ardean (center bottom) is a connected group of 14! How in the world could a perfectly calculated bonus be derived for such a diverse group of terts? Likewise, the terts that are neither thematic or gates appear alone and up to a clump of six. Imagine a three-player game with automatic initial troop drop. You'll start out owning nine plain terts and no gates or thematics. On the first turn all the other plain terts will have three armies in them, gates and thematics just two. It will be easier to go after gates than plain terts. Say you roll like a madman and capture four gates on the first turn. You will earn not just the +4 for the gates, but an extra one because now you own 13 total terts. So in effect four gates already earns you 5.33 armies. Since that matter of whether gates count toward total tert count was not clear even to me, I suspect Ian may not have considered this. And though this dynamic is hugely unlikely on the first turn, as the game progresses it certainly will apply. So I beg to differ with Ian. A gate tert is not "worth less per region held" and not really any more difficult to secure than any other four specific terts. Let's discuss this.

Another critical issue: I originally proposed that all gate and thematic terts would start out neutral. Is this strictly necessary? It makes sense for two players but what about for eight? Couldn't one each of the thematic terts be assigned and some of the gates?

I just counted carefully to be sure. There are:
30 Gate terts
15 thematic terts
29 plain terts.

Finally: I ask Ian, if at all possible, to suggest a plan of action as we go forward. What do we tackle first, second, third, etc.? I realize it's probably too much to expect any such plan to be followed closely. As this very post shows, all sorts of issues occur to one willy-nilly. So if the plan is just to tackle them as they come up until no more do, that would be understandable. But maybe at least a rough idea of order would be helpful.
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby Minister X on Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:14 pm

In honor of being reactivated... an updated version.

• I reverted to separate bonus texts for the five thematics - less ambiguity.
• Added clarification in lower right box regarding the gate bonus.
• Altered title appearance a bit.
• Eliminated "river".

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I'd like to add another topic for discussion. In the original comments above there was some complaint about the Latin title, but it was decided to keep it. I like it, but I realize now there may be a problem that wasn't brought up. When one CCer emails or IMs another about what game to play next, they'll very likely (I hope) say, "Let's play the Rome map." Almost all maps are titled by their geographic location when appropriate. Sure, some will say, "Let's play the Caesar map," but "Rome" will be common and then when they seek the map among the 200+ available they won't be able to find it! So I'd like to entertain the idea of renaming this such that "Rome" is the first word and thus the map can take its logical place in an alphabetic listing. Here are some possibilities; please suggest better ones.

Rome: Who WIll Rule?

Rome, the Eternal City

Rome's Next Dictator

Roman Imperium
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby HitRed on Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:07 pm

I like the current name but see your point. It is creative and you are the map maker. I used Pi-School which is off the beaten path.

If you must change I like

Rome: Age of Caesar
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby HitRed on Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:32 pm

I can answer this.

Minister X wrote: Another critical issue: I originally proposed that all gate and thematic terts would start out neutral. Is this strictly necessary? It makes sense for two players but what about for eight? Couldn't one each of the thematic terts be assigned and some of the gates?


You can have some gates or some the thematic bonuses start as player controlled. A bonus from the drop can be possible but should be unlikely.

In the few maps where this happens one player would have 3 troops and the other 4 troops starting. Luxembourg is famous for one player having 3 troops and the other 5 troops starting. Not fun if the other player has 5 and goes first.

Caesar's bonuses are not just +1 or +2 though! Yours are +4 which would be devastating. So consider sparsely using them. Keep in mind these start a weak Neutal 2 so are easy to take. Do you want players getting +4 round 2? Your call. I would think 1 each thematic and only 1 or 2 gates. I agree with the neutral 2 starts. If they were 3's player would ignore them and attack each other.

IanCanton wrote: I suggest +5 for every 4 gates and +3 for any group of 3 non-gate symbols, to provide a small positive differential.
He is not taking about a double bonuse. They are separate.
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby Minister X on Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:56 pm

"Rome: Age of Caesar" is good because it mentions Caesar, which ties in with the top left text. There are similar possibilities.

Rome: Caesar is Dead

Rome After Caesar

Rome: Caesar's Imperium

Rome: Caesar's Heir

Rome: Who Will Succeed Caesar?

I totally agree about needing to avoid the unfortunate results of a lucky drop, so indeed if any "good" terts start out owned they should be very few indeed. Question: say in a six player game six gate terts were to start out owned. Is it possible to ensure that each player gets one and only only or must the drop be completely random?
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby HitRed on Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:09 pm

Minister X wrote:"Rome: Age of Caesar" is good because it mentions Caesar, which ties in with the top left text. There are similar possibilities.

Rome: Caesar is Dead

Rome After Caesar

Rome: Caesar's Imperium

Rome: Caesar's Heir

Rome: Who Will Succeed Caesar?

I totally agree about needing to avoid the unfortunate results of a lucky drop, so indeed if any "good" terts start out owned they should be very few indeed. Question: say in a six player game six gate terts were to start out owned. Is it possible to ensure that each player gets one and only only or must the drop be completely random?



<positions>

If present, defines which territories will be owned by players when the game starts, and how they will be distributed between such players. The territories not present inside this tag are dealt out in the standard way.
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby Minister X on Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:11 am

For the record, I just ran this map through the color-blindness tests. Since red and green labels are used they of course become undifferentiated with several types of color-blindness, but that does not render the map unreadable. The special or thematic terts all have those symbols, so the issue is gates vs. plain terts. Gate terts have border shading and all have the word "Gate" in their labels. Plain terts have no border shading and never include "Gate". So even if this map is rendered in grayscale it's quite playable.

HitRed: just to make sure I understand, use of the XML <positions> thingie means that we CAN ensure that if six players start each gets just one gate. Right?
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby HitRed on Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:42 pm

Minister X wrote:HitRed: just to make sure I understand, use of the XML <positions> thingie means that we CAN ensure that if six players start each gets just one gate. Right?


There are a lot of choices and variations. We can tie 2 terr together like City Mogal. A and b, c and d, e and f. So the players are random but the territories always go together. This part of XML is new to me but I understand it. If I am correct the other non-neutrals would go random. But in a 2 player game a player would start with 4 starting positions AND 4 gates! unless coded not to by using MAX. this would limit any games with under 5 players to 1 set or 2 sets. Still learning. Are you OK if players know "a"always goes with "b"?


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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby Minister X on Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:54 pm

I think I understand maybe a quarter of what you just tried to communicate. Maybe half. I appreciate the effort. Let's try this: we discuss and agree on goals and then it becomes your responsibility to make sure the XML supports them. If it turns out it cannot, we adjust the goals.

My 1st take on goals:
1) maximize the total number of terts awarded on the drop but under no circumstances permit any player to have a bonus from the thematics or the gates.
2) If thematics are awarded, no more than one per player, and ideally each player would get exactly one.
3) If gates are awarded, an equal number to each player and no more than two per player.
4) much less important: avoid letting one player get any sort of advantageous drop, for instance by all his terts being in a clump while everyone else's are spread way out.

How's that sound and can you work with that? I suspect #4 is not possible. That's not a big deal. What about the first three?

And note that if worse comes to worst, we can always limit the drop to plain terts, no thematics or gates whatsoever, random drop on the plain terts -- and that would be fine. It's only if we want to get fancy that we have to be careful about avoiding a very unfair drop.
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby HitRed on Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:37 pm

Minister X wrote:I think I understand maybe a quarter of what you just tried to communicate. Maybe half. I appreciate the effort. Let's try this: we discuss and agree on goals and then it becomes your responsibility to make sure the XML supports them. If it turns out it cannot, we adjust the goals.

My 1st take on goals:
1) maximize the total number of terts awarded on the drop but under no circumstances permit any player to have a bonus from the thematics or the gates.
2) If thematics are awarded, no more than one per player, and ideally each player would get exactly one.
3) If gates are awarded, an equal number to each player and no more than two per player.
4) much less important: avoid letting one player get any sort of advantageous drop, for instance by all his terts being in a clump while everyone else's are spread way out.

How's that sound and can you work with that? I suspect #4 is not possible. That's not a big deal. What about the first three?

And note that if worse comes to worst, we can always limit the drop to plain terts, no thematics or gates whatsoever, random drop on the plain terts -- and that would be fine. It's only if we want to get fancy that we have to be careful about avoiding a very unfair drop.


Deal. Visually the XML will have no effect on the graphics. Gates or no gates I mean. I will start the coding only after you get more 'stamps'.

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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby Minister X on Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:02 pm

Absolutely. No need to start coding until eventual publication becomes a realistic hope.
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby Minister X on Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:18 pm

Small map version of v27. This brings the small map up to date and mimics changes made to the large map. In addition, most army numbers were repositioned just a touch.

One important difference/change: the text in the lower right corner explaining the bonuses. Note how this differs from the large map. Which version is clearer? Easier to understand? Harder to misunderstand? Can anyone think of better wording?

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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby Minister X on Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:03 pm

I've been using a free image hosting service called techpowerup.org. Their website is not responding and recent images here have gone blank. I'll wait a day or so to see if this is just temporary or if they've shuffled off this mortal coil. If they're dead I'll repost everything via a more reliable service.
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby iancanton on Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:44 pm

Minister X wrote:maximize the total number of terts awarded on the drop but under no circumstances permit any player to have a bonus from the thematics or the gates.

when u say under no circumstances, is a 0.1% chance unacceptable? what about a 1% chance?

Minister X wrote:If gates are awarded, an equal number to each player and no more than two per player.

the bonus structure for gates means that 2-player games will start with 26 of 30 gates being neutral. if it's changed so that, for example, u earn a +5 bonus for every four blood red gates except for your first four, then the increased difficulty means players can start fairly with a larger number of gates.

there's no need to mention +1 for every three of any type, as this is assumed in the rules.

is baths of contantine meant to be baths of constantine?

ian. :)
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Re: Caesar Mortuus Est v27

Postby Minister X on Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:30 am

iancanton wrote:
Minister X wrote:maximize the total number of terts awarded on the drop but under no circumstances permit any player to have a bonus from the thematics or the gates.

when u say under no circumstances, is a 0.1% chance unacceptable? what about a 1% chance?

I'd like to make a drop on them VERY rare. I suppose 2% or maybe even 3% would be acceptable. But I have an imperfect understanding of what must be sacrificed (i.e. in XML and drop rules) to make this possible. If allowing 5% would mean some advantage gained in some other aspect of the drop, I'd want to consider that. I'm really relying on you and HitRed here.

iancanton wrote:
Minister X wrote:If gates are awarded, an equal number to each player and no more than two per player.

the bonus structure for gates means that 2-player games will start with 26 of 30 gates being neutral. if it's changed so that, for example, u earn a +5 bonus for every four blood red gates except for your first four, then the increased difficulty means players can start fairly with a larger number of gates.

Great idea but maybe it should be adopted simultaneously with reducing the gates needed for a bonus to three (after the first three) and the bonus amount staying at four. I propose this (tentatively) because negating the first three or four has the effect of reducing the number of "in play" gates, making them harder to accumulate, and gates should be a major goal. I don't know. Tough question. We can always adjust as playtest helps us evaluate this.

I just did a bit of interesting research. Using the "Find Games" tool I checked active games. I figure "waiting games" might be skewed while active are more up-to-date than all those completed ones. Here's the result of the number of games by number of players:
2 players: 3,458
3 players: 580
4 players: 1,410
5 players: 926
6 players: 1,303
7 players: 389
8 players: 1,273
9 players: 169
10 players: 318
11 players: 84
12 players: 520
13+ players: 8

A bit more than half of all games are 4 players or less, but in terms of total players, the break comes at six-player games. Just over half of all players are in games of 6 or less, the rest are in games of 7 or more. This has relevance for game design. For instance, when considering the bonus rules and amounts for gates, we might want to pay particular attention to how it works for 5 players because 4 is one median and 6 is the other. This is by no means to suggest that we ignore 2-player games or 12-player games, merely that we consider 5 to be a sort of average or typical game (even though games with that exact number are rare).

If 5 players each get 4 gates, that leaves only ten "open" ones to try to grab. Of course you can always steal gates from other players, but I think this might argue for my 3/3/4 suggestion and that's what I'll put on the next map. But don't let that be taken as any sort of final decision. Clearly this is an issue that can benefit from multiple sources of input and in-depth discussion. As I've said elsewhere, I'm no expert when it comes to assigning bonuses.

iancanton wrote:there's no need to mention +1 for every three of any type, as this is assumed in the rules.

I was worried there might be some confusion over this. But I realize now that's just because I get confused by complicated maps! I'll eliminate the unneeded wording.

iancanton wrote:is baths of contantine meant to be baths of constantine?

Good eye! Indeed it should be Constantine. The baths were built around 310 to 315 and thus are perhaps the "newest" landmark on the map. BTW, if anyone within the sound of my voice happens to visit Rome, don't miss the Baths of Caracalla. The sheer scale of the construction is absolutely amazing and your respect for what the Romans were able to achieve as engineers/architects will soar.

Map update tomorrow.
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Re: ROME: CIVIL WAR v28

Postby Minister X on Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:13 pm

When uploading the newest map (below) I learned that the image hosting service I've been using for the last year is being shut down. That means I need to replace around a hundred images that appear here. ARGHH!!

Please... any suggestions regarding a good hosting site, free or cheap? I used Google Photos for this one and it seems okay.
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Re: ROME: CIVIL WAR v28

Postby Minister X on Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:20 pm

Version 28:

• Title changed to "Rome: Civil War" (see discussion above). Thus the name of the thread was also changed; sorry if this causes any confusion.
• Crossed gladiuses (gladii?) added to fill space created by shorter title.
• Corrected "Baths of Constantius".
• Altered bonuses for gates and the explanation lower right (see discussion above).
• Added XML credit for HitRed.

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Re: ROME: CIVIL WAR v28

Postby HitRed on Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:42 pm

Should the swords point up?
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Re: ROME: CIVIL WAR v28

Postby Minister X on Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:05 pm

HitRed wrote:Should the swords point up?

I tried both; it looks better this way. BTW, I'd be open to replacing the gladii with something else appropriate. I thought about a bust of Caesar but that's an image that's taller than it is wide, so won't really fit in the space. But maybe this...

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Re: ROME: CIVIL WAR v28

Postby Mishalex on Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:57 am

I really like the graphic and can't wait to try it. Nice work Minister X
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