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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby StorrZerg on Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:52 pm

also note, if pcm does hammer james, he is must less likely to be connected.

(i disagree with james read on hotshot, i think hotshot was playing pretty town day 1. He was not as inactive as james indicated.

James regarding why he didnt check me.
I was going to try and push a case on you to get you to claim, so it made no sense to waste a night action on something that would be gained the next day. Looks like everyone else pitched in with that.


Seems like if he checked me he would have gotten confirmed information to either damn me or save me. He could have even proven if my claim was false. Once a mafia is dead form a day 1 lynch, why the heck don't you check your number 1 suspect.



His last statement about preparing a case as to push jonty over himself was 7 hours ago.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby JamesKer1 on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:00 pm

StorrZerg wrote:His last statement about preparing a case as to push jonty over himself was 7 hours ago.


Yes, I do have a life Storr, and I apologize that I cannot be on my laptop every 7 hours. I had family matters to attend to, and I figured that the game could wait a little bit. But before I begin...

StorrZerg wrote:James regarding why he didnt check me.
I was going to try and push a case on you to get you to claim, so it made no sense to waste a night action on something that would be gained the next day. Looks like everyone else pitched in with that.


Seems like if he checked me he would have gotten confirmed information to either damn me or save me. He could have even proven if my claim was false. Once a mafia is dead form a day 1 lynch, why the heck don't you check your number 1 suspect.


As I said, I had a feeling you would be getting heat day two. And I turned out to be right. If you want me to check you tonight, I'll waste my action on it. But I, nor anyone else in their right mind, would like that, especially since I may be the only investigative role for town.

And besides- Day 1 is always a complete shot in the dark, no pun intended. I'll try to pick someone who doesn't die tonight I guess?

And now onto my case for Jonty. I'll be going through all of his posts and nitpicking it for details. Normally it isn't something I like to do, but Storr, you want me to do it to prove my innocence so I will.

jonty125 wrote:StorrZerg's vote is seriously rubbish,
StorrZerg wrote:Now virus failed to read OP

this makes me think he is scum
reading the OP and been scum are independent of each other. so my vote is now a serious vote on Zerg.

Also, virus' comment was a joke before D1 started, so in my eyes, you can't read anything from it, and I believe that by trying to construct a case from said post is scummy.


Defense of virus, one of the first to do it- I don't believe he ever got questioned over that as hard as I did by you, Storr.

jonty125 wrote:
StorrZerg wrote:Reasoning was 2 part jonty. I'd hardly consider outing someone as a role with your first post a joke.


See, I disagree that virus outed spiesr, I think spiesr was just confirming in a different way.

Which means to me your case has no merit whatsoever - hence useless to talk about - hence you should be lynched for bringing a case with no merit.


In other news, mtam said he used fake votes to trap people, I find using fake votes allows scum to vote scummily and backtrack, so I dislike them (fake votes) and find them that use them scummy.


Hard to get reads from this- however, a continued agreement with Virus and a debate against confirmed town doesn't look good.

jonty125 wrote:unvote, vote Virus for scummarining and as a 1-shot vig, you wouldn't shoot N1, even if you were outed, and also claiming a killing role seems a very easy fakeclaim for mafia (granted this is WIFOM) but the scummarining is the main point.


Quick Point of View change, and no explanation besides switch of opinion on the argument why he thinks Storr is clear. Definitely strange, but maybe not scummy. Open for interpretation

jonty125 wrote:OK looking back virus hasn't scummarined. His laying low comment caught my eyes as scummarining.

And Streaker, I put him at L-1, with a claim on the board, there is nothing wrong with that, I aren't looking for a fast lynch, if I had hammered him I would understand your case but as of now I don't. Also, yes I changed my opinion on virus but the game changes with time, and the case on virus changed in that time, so naturally my opinion changes.


... And a half explanation to my previous point. Weak, but I'll try to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Is the first line admission to skimming?

jonty125 wrote:I have to agree Storr was incredibly scummy towards the D1, and the fact that we was protecting mafia cannot be ignored.

Also, I believe the cult recruiter in the scene either tried to target PGO/Mafia/SK, not vig.

vote StorrZerg


Here's something I can work with.

We are now back to Storr. At first it was because he was pushing Virus, now it was because he was "protecting" Virus, and soon there will be some other crazy reason. Weak argument on my end, but when you can't even get your own reasoning straight, how are you supposed to do it with someone else's?

Also, while it seems clear that Hotshot approached someone other than Virus, killing him, speculation on the fact to "guide the game" in a different direction could be interpreted as anti-town.

jonty125 wrote:Storr, you're at L-2, it's very unlikely people are going to unvote, until you claim. Also Storr, I disagree with you claiming town creds because tambo thought you were town because he had a "town mindset", that doesn't mean he's infallible and also that Newbie Mafia, there were lots of players there with town mindsets, and yet the mafia weren't lynched. Also, the I'd never kill Tambo, doesn't do anything for me, it sounds like the kind of thing I hear when I play mafia with my mates and the lynch is based on weak cases and it's all a laugh and a joke.

In reference to me putting Storr @ L-1
IB wrote:you just don't jump in and put someone at L1 before they claim. That has been CC mafia protocol forever.
L-2/L-1 are very similar IB at this stage of the game we're not at LYLO, if someone had speed-hammered Storr after his claim - then we would have an easy D3 suspect.


Do I honestly believe you[Storr] were protecting virus? At the end of D1, yes. If you want me to give some reads Storr, you're probably gonna be disappointed but I like to keep everyone close or on neutral, unless they do extreme things (as that way I can try to keep an open mind)

So I currently see pcm & mets, as leaning slightly town, that D1 argument smelt town on town but it could verily easily not have been. And everyone else I'm keeping at neutral.


Failing to give reads is for sure scummy. "Staying neutral" to avoid making enemies and having to claim is definitely a problem. Plus, it keeps you from having to take a fall or any pressure for any misconceptions you may have provided.

jonty125 wrote:A couple of questions Storr.

You targetted yourself N1, does that mean if you die on any night information on the killer will show up in the day post? Or is it one night only you have to target the soon to be deceased on the same night as there death?
Also, do you have any idea what information you would receive?


Not sure what to make of this. Could be mafia trying to figure out the power of the role if he were to kill it, or town trying to verify the claim.

jonty125 wrote:
Iron Butterfly wrote:It is standard play here at CC that mafia shoots and serial killers chop or kill.


Is it? I have never used that in the few games I have modded.



I am content with lynching virus today & I didn't jump on "suddenly" on D2, I did vote you early on D1, but then virus claimed. (or at least that is how I remember it).


Another example of guiding with role possibilities. No reads on second part.

jonty125 wrote:
Streaker wrote:
jonty125 wrote:
You targetted yourself N1, does that mean if you die on any night information on the killer will show up in the day post? Or is it one night only you have to target the soon to be deceased on the same night as there death?
Also, do you have any idea what information you would receive?



This is clearly, if ever, fishing. If I was mafia, I would want to know exactly this. Storr also already noticed this on his next post. ''Can we kill you this night, Storr, without giving information to town?'' ''Or do we go for someone else''?

... Now jonty, I would very much like to hear a reason for your fishing that much detail about Storr's power.


I wouldn't quite call it fishing, but I am information on the role because I was at the time unsure of what it did because I've never seen Crier before. Also, I wanted all the facts before I decided if Storr's role, was worth keeping alive. Now I have more information, I don't think it is.

Iron Butterfly wrote:We have played many games with mafia double voters
I can't think of "many" off the top of my head or even any but this is a balance not included, maybe I shouldn't of put him at L-1.


L-2, I'll claim. I'm Edgar Gries-Town Fumigator. It's kinda of like a super jailkeeper. In that every night I target someone and they get a bulletproof vest, and they are roleblocked until the vest is removed by a kill attempt. N1 I targetted DJFireside, because he was quiet.


What the heck is a Fumigator? I've never heard of that, and a Google search wasn't helpful whatsoever. I don't want to speculate too much into this, but if DJ turns up mafia, we definitely need to crack down on Jonty over this. But I will leave it until then.

jonty125 wrote:
spiesr wrote:Interesting. Can the target voluntarily remove the protection/block, and can you have it on multiple players at once?


Not that I'm aware of and yes.


unvote, vote James randomly confessing that you were at the scene of the crime. That's not town play. And for clarity. I'd still like Virus lynched.


He definitely skimmed over my posts, and for the few that I had at that point I would definitely hope that everyone read them. Virus-Storr mistake is understandable, but the vote is not. However, until I get my name cleared, I guess this won't be looked into much.



Vote Jonty125. I can only hope others would do the same. I might not be the best at presenting or creating arguments, but when I have to do reads on a guy who has been playing for years and I'm on the hotseat... Guess who's at a huge disadvantage.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:06 pm

StorrZerg wrote:Mets, why jonty over james?


I think it's more likely than not that James is telling the truth about his claim. Not certain, but probable. If jonty is lynched and flips town, James would be my next target (well, and you :-)).
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby StorrZerg on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:33 pm

unvote JamesKer1
Vote jonty125


No counter claim does make it easier on james.

I would find it hard to believe we would start with no investing roles.

(I don't consider mine to be investigation type. )


Having an extra day helps.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby spiesr on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:53 pm

James, why how do you expalin Dj confirming Jonty's action?
StorrZerg wrote:That is fine if you suspect me over james or jonty. My follow up question is, do you suspect them. If you do, would you be willing to put your vote on either of them to insure a lynch happened. If so which one? Why that one over the other? IF neither, then who do you suspect since you said you had more than 1 scum read.
As he has begun posting more I am becoming somewhat suspicious of Jamesker. While I still don't really think that his inactivity was an intentional scum move, I am not exactly liking what I am hearing from him today. Hi new case on Jonty feels like it was put together solely to get heat off of him and not because he actually thinks Jonty is scum. (Part of that might be because you basically made him do so.)
I am reading Jonty as town right now. If the alternatives were lynching Jonty or no lynch I would vote for Jamesker ahead of those. I still would prefer you as the lynch at this point.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:56 pm

Question for the mod: supposing someone had a bulletproof vest in the way that jonty described it, would the vest stay on even after jonty died?
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby JamesKer1 on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:57 pm

spiesr wrote:James, why how do you expalin Dj confirming Jonty's action?


JamesKer1 wrote:I don't want to speculate too much into this, but if DJ turns up mafia, we definitely need to crack down on Jonty over this. But I will leave it until then.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:08 pm

JamesKer1 wrote:
spiesr wrote:James, why how do you expalin Dj confirming Jonty's action?


JamesKer1 wrote:I don't want to speculate too much into this, but if DJ turns up mafia, we definitely need to crack down on Jonty over this. But I will leave it until then.


Four main possible scenarios:

1) jonty is town fumigator, Dj is town and telling the truth

2) jonty is mafia fumigator, Dj is town and telling the truth

3) They're both mafia and completely lying about jonty's role

4) jonty is town fumigator, and Dj is telling the truth but he's mafia

Now, if we lynch jonty and he flips town, then that eliminates 2 and 3 but unfortunately it doesn't tell us about Dj. So it may still be necessary to investigate him tonight.

However, the problem here is that if we don't trust your claim, then we also can't trust your investigation of Dj.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Iron Butterfly on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:14 pm

StorrZerg wrote:StorrZerg(3): Djfireside, pancakemix, Streaker, jonty125, spiesr
Jamesker1 (4): StorrZerg, StorrZerg, jonty125, Iron Butterfly, streaker, StorrZerg
jonty125 (1): StorrZerg, Streaker, Iron Butterfly, Metsfanmax

Sorry, updated Vote count. The votes should be correct, on both sets. If you find something wrong let me know.


So Mets has opted to no lynch under the guise of voting jonty. Call it what you will but by putting the lone vote on jonty after folks backed off is the same as not voting in my book. Perhaps it's not a "real" vote for no lynch but it is a wasted vote in my opinion.

jonty even has back up to his claim from DJ while James has nothing except...well nothing really.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby spiesr on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:15 pm

JamesKer1 wrote:
spiesr wrote:James, why how do you expalin Dj confirming Jonty's action?
JamesKer1 wrote:I don't want to speculate too much into this, but if DJ turns up mafia, we definitely need to crack down on Jonty over this. But I will leave it until then.
This isn't the answer I am looking for. Scenarios exist where Jonty could be scum despite what DJ said. Logically for you to be voting for him you must believe one of those to be true. I want to know which one you are operating under the assumption of it being.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:16 pm

FYI: I still thought a jonty lynch was possible when I cast my vote. I was just careless and didn't realize mine was the only vote left at the time I made it.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby spiesr on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:16 pm

I think the current vote count looks like this:

Storr (3) - DJfireside, PancakeMix, spiesr
Jonty (3) - Metsfanmax, JamesKer1, StorrZerg
Jameker (3) - jonty125, Iron Butterfly, Streaker
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:19 pm

Iron Butterfly wrote:jonty even has back up to his claim from DJ


That means little to us. Even if Dj is town, that doesn't mean jonty is also town.

The problem with lynching james is that it gives us no information on the jonty/Dj issue. Lynching jonty (or Dj, I suppose) both helps us understand that issue and also gives us more info on whether we can trust James. If we lynch James and he flips cop, we've lost a huge advantage as town. The cost-benefit clearly goes to lynching either jonty or Storr for me. I'm not going to vote James unless something really scummy happens in the next 24 hours.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Iron Butterfly on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:23 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
JamesKer1 wrote:
spiesr wrote:James, why how do you expalin Dj confirming Jonty's action?


JamesKer1 wrote:I don't want to speculate too much into this, but if DJ turns up mafia, we definitely need to crack down on Jonty over this. But I will leave it until then.


Four main possible scenarios:

1) jonty is town fumigator, Dj is town and telling the truth

2) jonty is mafia fumigator, Dj is town and telling the truth

3) They're both mafia and completely lying about jonty's role

4) jonty is town fumigator, and Dj is telling the truth but he's mafia

Now, if we lynch jonty and he flips town, then that eliminates 2 and 3 but unfortunately it doesn't tell us about Dj. So it may still be necessary to investigate him tonight.

However, the problem here is that if we don't trust your claim, then we also can't trust your investigation of Dj.


You fast posted on me. I understand your logic BUT why jonty over James? And why do that knowing your vote is pretty much wasted unless 4 others join you, which I wont say is impossible but highly unlikely. You talk of trust but DJ has confirmed that his role is valid. Why would you trust James who has no proof of his role while jonty has at least had his role confirmed?
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Iron Butterfly on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:36 pm

I'm sorry I'm really tired from work...I thought the vote count switched around where met was the lone voter. I looked at the wrong vote count.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby JamesKer1 on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:44 pm

How about this IB (and to others I suppose)- if you keep me around just one more night, and mafia and town and whoever else don't interfere with my actions, I'll get you a clean investigation on one of the "hot topics" from today. If I fail to provide this tomorrow, then you have every right to lynch me, although I would advise you didn't. This way, I have my chance, but for those who think I'm still mafia, I'm still hanging by a thread and won't be given any breaks.

However, if I investigate someone who pops up dead again or Jonty or someone else gets in my way, then I would hope the above would be reconsidered. I can't help these factors.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby StorrZerg on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:53 pm

James auto claims day start with role and alignment. Then who ever that was on confirms or deny.

James lynch tells us less, because light connection or no connection.

Jonty has more information if lynched + part of his claim is rb. A town rb is dead. + looking lately, james is contributing.

Right now votes are pretty close. Any person could go. I had james at L-1

My main town read streaker, would rather jonty still (I think, unless something has changed)

I trust mets judgment of James vs jonty.

James, if you live. You must contribute more. No more lurking for days and days.

1 more to switch after streaker. I'd consider jonty at L-1 tbh
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:05 pm

JamesKer1 wrote:How about this IB (and to others I suppose)- if you keep me around just one more night, and mafia and town and whoever else don't interfere with my actions, I'll get you a clean investigation on one of the "hot topics" from today. If I fail to provide this tomorrow, then you have every right to lynch me, although I would advise you didn't. This way, I have my chance, but for those who think I'm still mafia, I'm still hanging by a thread and won't be given any breaks.

However, if I investigate someone who pops up dead again or Jonty or someone else gets in my way, then I would hope the above would be reconsidered. I can't help these factors.


Think about this carefully. If you pick a 'hot topic' that may increase the likelihood that you investigate someone who ends up dead. It is in your best interests to return an investigation tomorrow. Failing to do so will likely be bad for you, regardless of whether that's fair to you.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby StorrZerg on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:24 pm

I agree with mets.

An alive check tomorrow is your goal.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby pancakemix on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:38 pm

I state i can't be the last mafia to entice you to look for another mafia, to see who you push. It doesn't Matter if you trust streaker, since it proves I'm either town, thus another mafia/s or we are a scum team hence another mafia.


Okay...? I don't understand where you're going. I voiced a concern about Streaker, is that not sufficient to your point? Are you not entertained?

As for james, his pattern was different. In his previous town game, he was a lot more involved. Now that he is under pressure he is more active. I say this was a productive push. Being unproductive for town is scummy


That's my point: his inactivity hasn't been intentional. He said as much. I don't understand why you think it's a defense and why you think I'm scum because I'm "protecting" him (even though I'm not).

Being up to be lynched never crossed my mind. I've got a fairly large ego with this game. I can come off as a know it all, I can be an ass, I tell people what to do, I'm very opinionated. So adding pretentious prick. Why not.


As long as you own it, I guess. It doesn't change the fact that it's either terrible play or a terrible lie.

As for Speirs, other options are present. He talked about no lynch and how it might happen. I'm saying a no lynch is the fault of everyone, not one person who refuses to be lynched.


So you ARE trying to tell him what his opinion is. Okay. Just making sure.

I'd like to point out a NL could also be the fault of the guy who said he'd try to avoid making a hammer if he were scum, which is something said person was accused of attempting...

Also, stop directing actions. It's scummy. You've already got a long enough list of scummy things to be attributed to you and you're in no position to be playing captain anyway...

His last statement about preparing a case as to push jonty over himself was 7 hours ago.


...or being the activity police. Again.

As I said, I had a feeling you would be getting heat day two. And I turned out to be right.


Tell me again, Storr, how being a lynch candidate never crossed your mind...

On James' case: There's very little of substance here, really. The jump onto virus is probably the most notable thing about it. "A" for effort? As far as jonty himself goes, I'm still undecided. I'd be more inclined to vote him if it weren't for DJ's corroboration (speaking of whom, where'd he run off to?).

Hi new case on Jonty feels like it was put together solely to get heat off of him and not because he actually thinks Jonty is scum. (Part of that might be because you basically made him do so.)


Agree with this, in part because it shows the problem inherent in forcing so many reads from people: sometimes they're forced.

Metsfanmax wrote:Question for the mod: supposing someone had a bulletproof vest in the way that jonty described it, would the vest stay on even after jonty died?


I believe jonty claimed that the vest would stay until a shot was fired, so I'd assume yes. SW may not be able to answer that question directly.

JamesKer1 wrote:How about this IB (and to others I suppose)- if you keep me around just one more night, and mafia and town and whoever else don't interfere with my actions, I'll get you a clean investigation on one of the "hot topics" from today. If I fail to provide this tomorrow, then you have every right to lynch me, although I would advise you didn't. This way, I have my chance, but for those who think I'm still mafia, I'm still hanging by a thread and won't be given any breaks.

However, if I investigate someone who pops up dead again or Jonty or someone else gets in my way, then I would hope the above would be reconsidered. I can't help these factors.


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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby Streaker on Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:35 am

So James, all we need to give you is a 'clean' night, in a game where EVERYONE has a power? And mafia has to cooperate as well?

I hate changing my votes around like this, but I always said I was more interested in lynching jonty for reasons stated. I also believe we get more information from lynching him, especially about DJ.

I'd also like to add that any discussion about balancing power roles (i read something Storr said about town not having any investigative roles is unlikely) is moot, in a game called 'balance not included'.

Unvote, vote jonty
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby strike wolf on Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:31 am

Hey all, I am still sick but I think I am up for pulling a vote count together. If there has been no lynch made yet, deadline will be tonight around 11-1130.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.


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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby strike wolf on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:02 am

Vote Count

Storr (3)-DJfireside, PancakeMix, Spiesr
Jonty (4)-Metsfanmax, Jameskerr, Storrzerg, Streaker
James (2)-Jonty, Iron butterfly

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline tonight 11-1130 EST.

Metsfanmax wrote:Question for the mod: supposing someone had a bulletproof vest in the way that jonty described it, would the vest stay on even after jonty died?


Regardless of how they occur, all BP vests if in game would be permanent until used up or otherwise stated as part of someone's role.
Iliad wrote:The upside of calling everyone scum and making 1000 predictions is that statistically you should get a few right.


Strike wolf need brain for smart making.
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby jonty125 on Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:32 am

Self-preservation (not sure if I'm in time or not so I'm not going to risk a long post vote Storr
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Re: Balance Not Included Mafia 9/12 D2: Distracted Equilibri

Postby jonty125 on Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:33 am

jonty125 wrote:Self-preservation (not sure if I'm in time or not so I'm not going to risk a long post vote Storr


EBWOP [b][color=red]unvote, vote Storr
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