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Ireland 1475

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Ireland 1475

Postby Minister X on Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:26 pm

Map Name: Ireland 1475
Mapmaker(s): Minister X and HitRed
Number of Territories: LOTS! (TBD)
Special Features: Probably very few.
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: TBD

Map Image:

Image

This is an early-stage map showing only rivers and 23 bonus regions. That's right - those are bonus regions, not terts. Terts TBD.

There is already an Ireland map. It has 32 terts. I really like it - very pretty, easy to read, good gameplay. For reference, here it is:

Image

I am not trying in any way to compete with or replace this map. It's just that I feel like making a super-large map with something like 150 to 200 terts and my first approach to that has focused on Ireland. The geography is good; there are a multitude of towns, cities, and counties nicely spread all throughout this densely-settled island; the island has a rich history and 1475 (circa - I'm not being excessively literal) provides interesting political subdivisions (in addition to the 23 bonus regions I've depicted so far, there can be several larger-scale divisions: native Irish lands [perhaps several groupings], lands held by Anglo-Irish lords, and "The Pale" which was owned by the English king); and the internet provides a wealth of reference materials included wonderfully detailed large-scale maps, including several from the 15th century.

And so I present this early-stage graphic in The Melting Pot merely to see if there's any interest in such a map. Most maps over 150 terts in size have quite a few special rules. Most don't depict a recognizable geography. Some, IMHO, aren't very pretty. Most aren't easy to read and understand. The exception is USA 2.1 and interestingly it gets by far the most plays of any of these nine maps with more than 150 terts. My goal would be to make a map of this size that's pretty, fairly simple, easy to read and understand, based on familiar geography, and (hopefully) provides good gameplay with lots of strategic alternatives regardless of the rules chosen at game start.

Making such a large map will be a huge task, which is why I present this incomplete (and down-sized) first draft - just enough to give you an idea of what I have in mind. If the consensus is something like, "But we already have an Ireland map - chose someplace else," or, "All the super-large maps have a primarily horizontal orientation - a more vertical one like this just won't work," then fine. Little ventured, little lost. But if this idea gets enough initial approval I'll see if I can't find a way to fit 150-200 army numbers, tert names, and all the rest into a map that maybe runs something like 1000 wide by 1250 tall (USA 2.1 is 1200 x 901). I'll need some space because names like "Earldom of Ormond" and "Mac-Murrough" will be used. Not too many Irish place names are as short and snappy as "Cork".
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby HitRed on Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:06 pm

I think there is too much/or not enough to imagine on a blank slate. Maybe filling in just one county would help?

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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby ZaBeast on Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:10 pm

There's already France and France 2.1 maps and about a thousand USA ones, so I don't think having a much bigger Ireland map would be an issue.
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby Minister X on Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:39 pm

HitRed wrote:I think there is too much/or not enough to imagine on a blank slate. Maybe filling in just one county would help?

Instead let me show you some of the maps I'll be using as I construct this map. The first shows roughly how super-regions will be distributed. The green "native" lands can easily be made into two to four super-regions. Each super-region is comprised of several normal bonus regions, as is done on the Eurasia map. The other two images shown below are bits of the old maps I'll be using to name terts. These samples are significantly down-sized. The originals are huge. Aren't they wonderful?

Image

Image

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I realize that a better "taste" of my completed map would make your job easier but it just isn't possible. Constructing this map will have to be done with extreme care. First, I'll need some sort of commitment from Ian about size. Then I'll start placing tert names and army numbers, seeing how many I can fit in, shifting them about to make sure there's room for all. Only then can I draw tert borders, or perhaps decide to use connection lines ala USA 2.1. Meanwhile, I'll be planning where and how to show and specify bonus regions and numbers. Only at this point can I start thinking about visual presentation. How much room do I have for a frame? For various graphic adornments?

So the best I could do now is a very artificial sample. You'd be better off using your imagination. Look at those reference maps above; look at my other maps. Hope for the best. ;)
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby HitRed on Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:07 pm

I understand USA 2.1 on Ireland. Sounds good.

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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby Minister X on Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:49 pm

I've got a problem. I did some math to figure out how many terts I'd have to fit into one small county such that it would equate to 200 overall. I made those four terts, used a compressed font for their names, and placed army numbers. Based on the maximum amount of reduction that could stand before becoming unreadable (my draft map is 4000 pixels wide so I'll be able to read those two highly detailed historical maps I'm using for reference) and the fact that army numbers must be 24x15 pixels in size, I was then able to calculate how large my final map must be to just barely contain 200 readable terts. HUGE.

Take a look at the huge maps. Spanish Armada (232 terts) fits 60 "extra" terts into tiny boxes in each lower corner and the main part of the map practically fills a rectangular area edge-to-edge with terts. Clandemonium (173 terts) fills 80% of the total map area with terts, the great majority named with numbers. USA 2.1 (249 terts) is blessed by the fact that the USA is basically rectangular in shape. Nevertheless the cartographer had to distort the shapes of New England, Florida and Southern California. Even with that I'm in awe of how he got 240 readable terts into an area 1200 by 900 pixels. Bravo! But I doubt anyone would say that the map is a paragon of cartographic beauty. Hive and King's Court both use hexagons (the most efficient possible use of space) and numbers instead of names for terts.

Ireland is shaped sort of like an eroded tilted parallelogram - not the most inefficient shape but not nearly as good as any of those other large maps. There will have to be "wasted" space on my map. I can't use numbers, only names, and they tend to be lengthy. And so I can't possibly fit something like 175 terts into a map no larger than those others. I'm left with two choices:

1) Ian allows me at least 1100 by 1500 pixels (HxW), maybe even 1200 by 1600, or
2) He allows me a lesser area and I scale back the number of terts commensurately.

I would say to Ian that allowing me to go ahead with a map of X dimensions will hardly be taken as final approval of whatever I come up with. Not remotely. It just gives me a starting point. After that, all the normal rules apply. If the map deserves stamps down the road, great; if not, so be it. And if he wants to be extra generous, he can also specify a not-too-reduced size for the small version. I'm dreading the thought of that small map. [-o<

But let me also add this: if he declines to meet my hopes for any reason I won't sit and sulk. Based on what I had to do just to fit four terts into one county I can predict that making this map will be a enormous pain in the you-know-what. Furthermore, I like trying to make pretty maps and I'm having great difficulty seeing how I can make one with this many terts anything like pretty. Even if you grant me an enormous area I can easily foresee being unjable to make a map that meets my own esthetic standards and abandoning the project quite early. So Ian buddy... decline away. I won't regret it. I've got several other irons in the fire. Maybe one day I'll figure out a way to make a pretty map with 120 terts in a reasonably small area. Or maybe I'll come up with a cool idea akin to the Hive - employing geometry and some abstraction to fit lots of terts into a small space.
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby Minister X on Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:51 pm

double post - sorry
Last edited by Minister X on Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby jfm10 on Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:13 am

How many territories are you planning to have in Wexford ?
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby HitRed on Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:54 am

The railway maps use 3 letter codes for much longer named stops to save space.
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby Minister X on Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:55 am

Three letter codes? Sorry... no. Converting "Shilelagh" to "SHI" would be too great a loss of atmospherics. Kilkenny. Ballagheen. Bally-Castle. These names are way too wonderful to lose. What would be the point of doing this map with codes or numbers?

jfm10: Likely five or six terts in Wexford Lordship. The one in which I fit four was the farthest northeast county. Wexford is a bit larger on my posted draft map. Here's a look at my test county:
Image
Rather crowded, no?
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby ZaBeast on Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:18 am

A lot of maps use abbreviations. On England you have the likes of cambs, gloucs, etc. On USA 2.1 you have some terts replaced by a number on the map, and a legend for these names on the right. On the rail maps you have 3-letter codes. For all of them you can see the whole name when you hover above a tert with map inspect though. I think that's a good compromise if you can come up with good abbreviations and not just chose a few random letters from the places' names.
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby Minister X on Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:23 pm

FORGET THIS MAP - AT LEAST FOR NOW.

I've decided to take a completely different approach to making a super-large map. Want to see? Go here: https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=234262
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Re: Ireland 1475

Postby iAmCaffeine on Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:16 pm

ZaBeast wrote:A lot of maps use abbreviations. On England you have the likes of cambs, gloucs, etc. On USA 2.1 you have some terts replaced by a number on the map, and a legend for these names on the right. On the rail maps you have 3-letter codes. For all of them you can see the whole name when you hover above a tert with map inspect though. I think that's a good compromise if you can come up with good abbreviations and not just chose a few random letters from the places' names.

But the abbreviations on the England map are actually commonly used. The Rail maps are stations. I agree with Minister.
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