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Baltic States [3/10] V33 P34 Beta!!

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Re: Baltic States [7/27] V29 P28 Small Map ready

Postby Bruceswar on Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:31 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:Fixed now... I did not mean to turn off that layer

Cool!



Also fixed the border which was not thicker or sticking out, but I reworked it. Lim is fixed also.
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Re: Baltic States [6/19] V17 P20

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:37 am

iancanton wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
BluU wrote:I also think islands should yield a bonus of 1 comparing to the other bonuses of 2 which look much more harder to defend[/list]
@ the point about the islands. I want that bonus to come into play... So with that said if you make it a 1 bonus then nobody is gonna mess with it. Make it 2 and people will want it.

bruce, +2 for the 2-region osel bonus will not fly. not only does it mean that the easiest bonus zone to take has the biggest bonus-to-region ratio at 1:1, which is the wrong way round, but the location of osel is the most natural place on the map to hide in a multiplayer game while collecting a bonus and waiting for opponents to weaken each other; +1 per turn is enough of a reward for the hide-and-wait strategy.

The Islands are a plus 2, which is a 1:1 ratio but that will help balance out the lower part of the map. The north needs some pull also.

there is also no reason for an easy sea connection between kuressaare and talsi. no bridges, ferries or planes go that way in peacetime, while an army will find such an international sea crossing extremely hazardous: hitler's forces failed to cross a similar distance from france to england. removing this sea route gives some respite to courland, which has been hard-pressed all through the development of this map.

While the Sea route might not be the best choice for a sea route I think for this map it is very needed to keep the map from clogging up in the middle of Latvia

some more of those awfully nice trees, positioned between kuldiga and tukums, together with removal of the sea route, will help to give to the map at least one bonus zone larger than classic oceania that players will consider to be viable.

I am open to adding trees there if enough people support it. Anybody else support it?

with 6 border regions to defend, the riga bonus is too hard for a +5. this can be solved by putting trees on the north side of limbazi.

Also the same here any more support for it? I am open to that idea also.

the n1 neutrals will need to become n2 neutrals if, during beta, it is clear that the 3-region bonuses are the first to be held in the vast majority of games. from the mapmaker handbook, there should be many ways a game might progress on a map, and many roads to victory. if holding a 3-region bonus before the enemy does is the key to victory in 80% of 1v1 games, for example, then the map clearly fails the many roads to victory test.

As stated I am going to wait till beta. If it is a major issue then ofc it will be changed. Lets see how it plays out.

did i say that i like the trees? they look a lot better than the mountains, which are unconvincing, and the rivers, which are still a different hue from the sea and lakes. is there any chance that u might replace either the mountains or the rivers with more trees? incidentally, trees don't grow in straight lines. where u have room (such as between jurbarkas and marijampole), draw an odd-shaped clump of them that covers the borders and more. the africa ii map has good examples of non-linear clumps of trees that cover borders.

The mountains have been redrawn and look much better now. As to adding in more trees. I will look into it and see what I can do.

ian. :)




Now that I have more time... Responses will come in red....
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Re: Baltic States [7/27] V29 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby RedBaron0 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:51 am

The colored numbers are going to cause issue. Red, orange, yellow for sure, maybe teal too. A tweak to those offending colored region need to be done, or the addition of army circles/ovals/what-have-you needs to be explored.
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Re: Baltic States [6/19] V17 P20

Postby iancanton on Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:24 am

Bruceswar wrote:
iancanton wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
BluU wrote:I also think islands should yield a bonus of 1 comparing to the other bonuses of 2 which look much more harder to defend[/list]
@ the point about the islands. I want that bonus to come into play... So with that said if you make it a 1 bonus then nobody is gonna mess with it. Make it 2 and people will want it.

bruce, +2 for the 2-region osel bonus will not fly. not only does it mean that the easiest bonus zone to take has the biggest bonus-to-region ratio at 1:1, which is the wrong way round, but the location of osel is the most natural place on the map to hide in a multiplayer game while collecting a bonus and waiting for opponents to weaken each other; +1 per turn is enough of a reward for the hide-and-wait strategy.

The Islands are a plus 2, which is a 1:1 ratio but that will help balance out the lower part of the map. The north needs some pull also.

if u put in +2 for osel, then most of the other bonuses need to be increased, otherwise they become of marginal relevance and strategy becomes limited in too many games to being first to take and hold osel and the 3-region bonuses. perhaps reduce the bonus to +1, but also reduce the neutral from n3 to n2?

Bruceswar wrote:
iancanton wrote:there is also no reason for an easy sea connection between kuressaare and talsi. no bridges, ferries or planes go that way in peacetime, while an army will find such an international sea crossing extremely hazardous: hitler's forces failed to cross a similar distance from france to england. removing this sea route gives some respite to courland, which has been hard-pressed all through the development of this map.

While the Sea route might not be the best choice for a sea route I think for this map it is very needed to keep the map from clogging up in the middle of Latvia

the bay of riga is the only significant impassable on this map. even if needed, it is inappropriate for attacks using the sea route to be as easy as driving ten minutes up the road from riga to the next town. connect kuressare and talsi by a neutral-starting zero-bonus boat that is otherwise normal (no legend explanation needed)? a killer neutral can also be used, with explanation.

Bruceswar wrote:
iancanton wrote:some more of those awfully nice trees, positioned between kuldiga and tukums, together with removal of the sea route, will help to give to the map at least one bonus zone larger than classic oceania that players will consider to be viable.

I am open to adding trees there if enough people support it. Anybody else support it?

Bruceswar wrote:
iancanton wrote:with 6 border regions to defend, the riga bonus is too hard for a +5. this can be solved by putting trees on the north side of limbazi.

Also the same here any more support for it? I am open to that idea also.

riga and courland are certainly undervalued otherwise.

Bruceswar wrote:
iancanton wrote:the n1 neutrals will need to become n2 neutrals if, during beta, it is clear that the 3-region bonuses are the first to be held in the vast majority of games. from the mapmaker handbook, there should be many ways a game might progress on a map, and many roads to victory. if holding a 3-region bonus before the enemy does is the key to victory in 80% of 1v1 games, for example, then the map clearly fails the many roads to victory test.

As stated I am going to wait till beta. If it is a major issue then ofc it will be changed. Lets see how it plays out.

agreed.

ian. :)
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Re: Baltic States [7/27] V29 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby RedBaron0 on Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:10 pm

How you doing here Bruce?
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Re: Baltic States [7/27] V29 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:02 pm

There will be an update soon.. Been slammed at work.
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Re: Baltic States [7/27] V29 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Bruceswar on Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:35 pm

Version 30

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What is new:
  • Osel changed to 1 from 2
  • Courland issues fixed by changing the boarders slightly to make it easier to defend.
  • Osel Neutral changed from 3 to 2.
  • Other minor fixes
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Re: Baltic States [7/27] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Bruceswar on Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:37 pm

That should fix most of the game play issues that Ian brought up
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby RjBeals on Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:51 am

This map looks good. Only thing I would change is the special thanks font in upper right. The clear font with black outline doesn't blend with the map.

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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Aleena on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:00 am

ya make special thanks all most not readable - for why promote such willingness to honour those whom helped ya....

Instead of fading them out into a all most unreadable blur - maybe if it's just in solid black like the Legend text then it will still be readable and should fit - since it matches other text in the same area...
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby koontz1973 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:11 am

Bruce, nice, Tukums, name is on the border, can you move it slightly to in the region. You seem to have the room. Tree impassable next to Zemgala, can you add one more tree to the end of the line please. Lastly, have to agree with RJ over the thanks text. While I like his idea, Aleena has a point over making it fit the map better so do it in the style and colour of the country names (Russia, Belarus and Poland). That should be a good compromise between the two ideas and fit in with the map.
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby RjBeals on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:53 am

Aleena wrote:ya make special thanks all most not readable - for why promote such willingness to honour those whom helped ya....


You're lucky your name is even getting put on the map.
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:40 pm

RjBeals wrote:This map looks good. Only thing I would change is the special thanks font in upper right. The clear font with black outline doesn't blend with the map.

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What font is that??
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:42 pm

RjBeals wrote:
Aleena wrote:ya make special thanks all most not readable - for why promote such willingness to honour those whom helped ya....


You're lucky your name is even getting put on the map.



Her name is not on the map... but Amazzony is
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:42 pm

koontz1973 wrote:Bruce, nice, Tukums, name is on the border, can you move it slightly to in the region. You seem to have the room. Tree impassable next to Zemgala, can you add one more tree to the end of the line please. Lastly, have to agree with RJ over the thanks text. While I like his idea, Aleena has a point over making it fit the map better so do it in the style and colour of the country names (Russia, Belarus and Poland). That should be a good compromise between the two ideas and fit in with the map.



All issues fixed here. Will be in the next update
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby RjBeals on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:07 pm

don't know what font that was. Didn't save the file. And sorry about the Aleena comment. It's like she just likes to argue. You don't have to put everyone's name on YOUR map just because they contributed feedback during it's development. It's very nice of you, but not necessary. I would keep it small and unobtrusive.

* Edit: I also tried flush right text and it seemed fit a little nicer than centered.
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Aleena on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:10 pm

Brucewars, don't know what it is - but I seem to rub some people the wrong way.....
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Re: Baltic States [8/25] V30 P29 Small Map ready??

Postby Bruceswar on Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:23 pm

Version 31:


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Whats new:

  • Added the tree by koontz request
  • Fixed the special thanks!
  • Tukums name and number moved to fit better.
  • Other minor fixes
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Re: Baltic States [6/19] V17 P20

Postby isaiah40 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:46 pm

iancanton wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
iancanton wrote:with 6 border regions to defend, the riga bonus is too hard for a +5. this can be solved by putting trees on the north side of limbazi.

Also the same here any more support for it? I am open to that idea also.

riga and courland are certainly undervalued otherwise.

Have you given any thought to this?? I think it would be a good idea to do.
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Re: Baltic States [6/19] V17 P20

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:01 am

isaiah40 wrote:
iancanton wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:
iancanton wrote:with 6 border regions to defend, the riga bonus is too hard for a +5. this can be solved by putting trees on the north side of limbazi.

Also the same here any more support for it? I am open to that idea also.

riga and courland are certainly undervalued otherwise.

Have you given any thought to this?? I think it would be a good idea to do.



I did... I made some changes to Courland which should have fixed issues there. I am still not sure about the trees there. Though I guess it could be done.
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Re: Baltic States [8/26] V31 P30 Small Map ready??

Postby koontz1973 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:40 am

Bruceswar wrote:I am still not sure about the trees there. Though I guess it could be done.

Go with some trees. I would also go one further than ian and add some trees at Cesis to block that territ from Madona and Gulbene. My reason is one purely from a players stand point. I love the maps that give you choices and force you to make decisions on a way to go. But I will leave this extra one to you to decide on.
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Re: Baltic States [8/26] V31 P30 Small Map ready??

Postby Bruceswar on Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:01 am

koontz1973 wrote:
Bruceswar wrote:I am still not sure about the trees there. Though I guess it could be done.

Go with some trees. I would also go one further than ian and add some trees at Cesis to block that territ from Madona and Gulbene. My reason is one purely from a players stand point. I love the maps that give you choices and force you to make decisions on a way to go. But I will leave this extra one to you to decide on.



I would be ok with the first suggestion... the 2nd is ugh too much
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Re: Baltic States [8/26] V31 P30 Small Map ready??

Postby RjBeals on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:50 am

graphics look good to me. Nice work. Still love the colors on this map.
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Re: Baltic States [8/26] V31 P30 Small Map ready??

Postby Aleena on Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:20 am

I agree with RjBeals
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Re: Baltic States [8/26] V31 P30 Small Map ready??

Postby isaiah40 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:08 pm

Bruce go ahead and get the following items done:

1. Small Map
2. Color Blind tests
3. Map with starting neutrals and starting amounts
4. Both maps with the 888 numbers on them

Update the OP with the above as well as the current page, and either RB0 or myself will take a look at everything.
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