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Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:34 am
by Gilligan
Image

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:38 am
by Gilligan
          Beta - Quenching

---The development period has concluded for the Pirates and Merchants Map. All objections have had their time. The Foundry and I hereby brand this map with the Foundry Beta Brand. Let it be known that this map is now ready for BETA Play. After an extended period of time in BETA and once all quirks and issues have been resolved, the map will be put into Full Play (barring any Admins or Foundry Foreman vetoes).

Conquer Club, enjoy!

              Image


While the map is in BETA Play, there are a couple of administrative tasks that are required of the mapmaker(s) in addition to the initial gameplay testing:
    1. Please ensure that the first post of the thread contains all the necessary information to help future visitors to the development thread; it's particularly important to ensure the most recent images are there, along with any helpful guides (such as gameplay quirks/nuances or the location/size of any starting neutrals etc.)
    2. It is the responsibility of the mapmaker(s) to ensure that they respond to further feedback in a timely and constructive manner.
    3. Write a "creative" map description and send it to the Foundry Foreman via PM. You're encouraged to post it into the first post of the thread as well; the description will be used to populate the maps database.


Gilligan

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:34 pm
by DiM
cool. feedback is welcome.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 7:18 am
by zimmah
http://zimmah.webs.com/Pirates%20and%20 ... 0v1.1c.xml

changes: Moved Esa'ala 7 pixels to the left on the large map by DiMs request.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 1:07 pm
by jbrettlip
HAve a way to attack the ships. It is horrible gameplay.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 8:36 pm
by zimmah
jbrettlip wrote:HAve a way to attack the ships. It is horrible gameplay.


it is by design that the ships can't be attacked, that's the whole point.....

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:42 am
by jbrettlip
zimmah wrote:
jbrettlip wrote:HAve a way to attack the ships. It is horrible gameplay.


it is by design that the ships can't be attacked, that's the whole point.....


but it is dumb...you can never eliminate a player. games will last forever on this type of map. You should have a British warship that starts with a 10 neutral and reverts back to neutral after the turn, that can attack the pirates.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:58 pm
by DiM
read mission, complete it, win.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:32 pm
by jbrettlip
Read CC mission: deploy, attack, reinforce. CONQUER your opponent. You can't do this on this map. Have you tried looking at this map on an ipad or phone? Reading the small font, to try and figure out how many treasures you are holding? It is flat out terrible. Sorry DiM. I have loved AOM since the beginning. THAT was a great innovation. This is simply frustrating gameplay.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:54 pm
by Gilligan
jbrettlip wrote:Read CC mission: deploy, attack, reinforce. CONQUER your opponent. You can't do this on this map. Have you tried looking at this map on an ipad or phone? Reading the small font, to try and figure out how many treasures you are holding? It is flat out terrible. Sorry DiM. I have loved AOM since the beginning. THAT was a great innovation. This is simply frustrating gameplay.


any map on a phone is horrible, but i'd imagine it's alright on an ipad.

how is this concept any different than das schloss? you have to hold the objective to win, that's the only way to do it. yes, there's a way to eliminate, but does anyone do it? no. if anything it's more intriguing because you don't know what objective people need to win.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:27 am
by Donelladan
Just started to play the map, very interesting concept indeed.


Since it is 100% impossible to eliminate someone, this map should be block from assassin and terminator no?
Also, only way to kill someone is to play nuclear and zombies, can you make it impossible to get the card from the ships?

Haven't finished one game yet but love the concept. =D>

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:12 am
by Gilligan
Donelladan wrote:Just started to play the map, very interesting concept indeed.


Since it is 100% impossible to eliminate someone, this map should be block from assassin and terminator no?
Also, only way to kill someone is to play nuclear and zombies, can you make it impossible to get the card from the ships?

Haven't finished one game yet but love the concept. =D>


this is as good point, nukes and zombies should be blocked because without your ship you can't win. Unfortunately we can't block territories from appearing on cards

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:00 am
by Donelladan
I am playing the map in poly 3 and poly 4. I wanted to try.
I have the feeling the map is not suitable at all to 1vs1,2vs2,3vs3 or 4vs4. It is very difficult to fulfill the objective with those settings.
I am currently trying it in multiplayer game as well - more than 2 teams - it seems better and much more fun.

But I am wondering if changes shouldn't be made to make it easier to play in game with only 2 player or only 2 teams.
The problem is, it is difficult to take the advantage, because the bonus are small, and are easily breakable.
I am not sure if you should either, take away the auto deploy/increase the value of the bonus/give some bonus to each boat that they are somehow the only one to have at the beginning.
Like each boat has a coastal base, that only them can attack directly ( other can attack from neighboring regions on the coast) and this coastal base is giving them auto deploy or deploy bonus.

I am not sure if you consider it an issue. But if it stay like it is I'll never play it again in 1vs1 or in a game with only 2 teams. - still like the map anyway and will play it on multiplayer game.

Also, if you play 2vs2 and one team got no pirates while the other got 1 or 2 pirates, I think the pirate will be strongly advantaged, Didn't have the case yet but it is possible.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:24 am
by iAmCaffeine
I like it so far, especially the new aspect of gameplay it brings. I just recommend not playing in trench.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:32 am
by buddhabelly
first time playing, and i had to read the rules 3 times before i noticed the difference between pirates and merchants. plus it seems like this map very much favors the pirate for the first handful of turns. i would be willing to bet in a 1v1, the pirate wins 75% of the time.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:35 am
by iAmCaffeine
buddhabelly wrote:first time playing, and i had to read the rules 3 times before i noticed the difference between pirates and merchants. plus it seems like this map very much favors the pirate for the first handful of turns. i would be willing to bet in a 1v1, the pirate wins 75% of the time.


This was a game against me. I do agree it can be confusing to fully grasp the map from the beginning. I seemed to have an advantage over buddhabelly but cannot confirm if that was due to strategy or private vs merchant as I haven't played the map enough. I am in another 1v1 where we both have a pirate ship and it's just a game of the dice.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:25 pm
by DiM
as with every new concept it's very tricky to get it right on the first try, especially when it involves more complications than any map ever made. with all those separate missions balancing is a hard task so i'm quite sure that i did not get it perfectly balanced.
the thing is i will need plenty of feedback to reach a clear conclusion. losing in a game might be simply because the other player had great dice and not because the map is imbalanced.
so far i think fearsome DiM's mission is a bit too difficult, but i could be wrong.
i expect this to sit in beta for quite a while.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:43 pm
by iAmCaffeine
DiM wrote:as with every new concept it's very tricky to get it right on the first try, especially when it involves more complications than any map ever made. with all those separate missions balancing is a hard task so i'm quite sure that i did not get it perfectly balanced.
the thing is i will need plenty of feedback to reach a clear conclusion. losing in a game might be simply because the other player had great dice and not because the map is imbalanced.
so far i think fearsome DiM's mission is a bit too difficult, but i could be wrong.
i expect this to sit in beta for quite a while.


Agreed it will take quite a while to work out the perfect balance. In my two 1v1 games I've had Fearsome DiM both times - won one against a merchant ship and going to lose against a pirate ship. I haven't played enough from other starting positions to comment.

My biggest issue is reading the text - just one or two letters seem similar.

Using BOB, the winning condition for Fearsome DiM wasn't shown correctly in the continent overview. It didn't show the various regions needed. I only wanted to highlight them to find them on the map through map inspect but instead had to gander around, wasn't really an issue.

I'll add further thoughts the more I play.

Just wondering, has this passed a colour blind test?

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:03 am
by morleyjoe
jbrettlip wrote:
zimmah wrote:
jbrettlip wrote:HAve a way to attack the ships. It is horrible gameplay.


it is by design that the ships can't be attacked, that's the whole point.....


but it is dumb...you can never eliminate a player. games will last forever on this type of map. You should have a British warship that starts with a 10 neutral and reverts back to neutral after the turn, that can attack the pirates.


This is not dumb - this is why this is a great map! In multi-player games, everyone plays until the end - how could it be any better....well I would agree with some comments that it is a little hard to read some of the names....but otherwise, so far, it is an awesome map!

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:50 am
by Dukasaur
DiM wrote:so 9 would be better?

or perhaps leave it at 7 treasures but add 2 ports from where he can plan his ruthless attacks.

this way he'll have to compete with other pirates for the treasures and with the merchants for the ports.



one more thing. are the pirates a bit overpowered cause they can attack any coast? would it be better if instead of this, they'd be able to attack any port + any coastal treasure?

One possibility for balancing this would be to require him to hold at least one inland hex. There's even a perfectly viable narrative for this requirement: All the treasure sites are known, and he needs to find a new, safer place to hide his treasure. And, it would certainly reduce the advantage that he holds as a pirate, since he couldn't police the inland hex directly from his ship.

jbrettlip wrote:
zimmah wrote:
jbrettlip wrote:HAve a way to attack the ships. It is horrible gameplay.


it is by design that the ships can't be attacked, that's the whole point.....


but it is dumb...you can never eliminate a player. games will last forever on this type of map. You should have a British warship that starts with a 10 neutral and reverts back to neutral after the turn, that can attack the pirates.

That would just make it like so many other maps. Stack, stack, stack, then pull the trigger, take out the bombarding ship, win or lose all in one big attack. Yawn. Been done soooo many times.

This is a new and different kind of map. Don't know yet how much fun it will be in practise (I only started one game last night and I'm still pondering my first move) but in theory it should lead to some very intricate possibilities.

Gilligan wrote:
jbrettlip wrote:Read CC mission: deploy, attack, reinforce. CONQUER your opponent. You can't do this on this map. Have you tried looking at this map on an ipad or phone? Reading the small font, to try and figure out how many treasures you are holding? It is flat out terrible. Sorry DiM. I have loved AOM since the beginning. THAT was a great innovation. This is simply frustrating gameplay.


any map on a phone is horrible, but i'd imagine it's alright on an ipad.

how is this concept any different than das schloss? you have to hold the objective to win, that's the only way to do it. yes, there's a way to eliminate, but does anyone do it? no. if anything it's more intriguing because you don't know what objective people need to win.

+1

Donelladan wrote:Since it is 100% impossible to eliminate someone, this map should be block from assassin and terminator no?
Also, only way to kill someone is to play nuclear and zombies, can you make it impossible to get the card from the ships?

Why should that be blocked? The 1-in-whatever chance that your base will get nuked will be one of the risks you take. If you don't want to take that risk, then don't play it in nukes, but don't close the door on that possibility for others.


DiM, in my first assessment, you've done a great job. I'm still not thrilled with the size, and I think you could squeeze things together better to make room on the side. Horizontal scrolling to get to attack bar or to see the stats is very annoying. Still, I don't want to go off on one of my anti-supersize tirades. I think everybody in the foundry knows how I feel about that. Far more importantly, this is not just another map. This is a genuine step forward, expanding the possibilites of CC.

It might take a while to get the balance right. I hope somebody with decent spreadsheet skills starts keeping stats on which starting positions win the most often, etc., so that we're not just stuck with anecdotal evidence. But the effort will pay off. This is a really good map.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:02 pm
by Donelladan
Donelladan wrote:Since it is 100% impossible to eliminate someone, this map should be block from assassin and terminator no?
Also, only way to kill someone is to play nuclear and zombies, can you make it impossible to get the card from the ships?

Why should that be blocked? The 1-in-whatever chance that your base will get nuked will be one of the risks you take. If you don't want to take that risk, then don't play it in nukes, but don't close the door on that possibility for others.



I am speaking of assassin and terminator, and you reply me about nuke.

So, why should that be blocked? Because it is a non-sense to play a terminator/assassin on this map if you can't kill someone.
It should be block for assassin and terminator for the same reason conquest map are now blocked from manual. Nothing to deploy -> no manual setting ( -> doens't count for the medal).



Concerning nuke and zombie I only voiced a concern, Gilligan said it should be block. I agree it is rather stupid for this map to have nuke and zombie on, in multiplayer game it will definitely incite people to deadbeat or throw the game, especially since the map can be pretty long.
But of course, it doesn't matter to me, I know it and won't be playing it with those settings you right on that.





Otherwise, DiM, I would have like your opinion on my concerns concerning 1vs1, 2vs2, 3vs3 and 4vs4.
It really does make a boring game. Have you tried it?
Maybe you don't want to change because you think it for multiplayer, for which the map is really great and I like it very much that way. But for 1 team vs 1 team it sucks.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:21 pm
by DiM
i'm sorry i'm not posting more often but my time is extremely limited. :(

i haven't had the time to play this too much but so far i agree 1v1 can become an attrition battle especially if both players are pirates/merchants.

assassin and terminator games would just play as a standard game so not sure if they really need to be blocked.

not sure how zombies actually work, but the nukes could indeed provide a nasty surprise if your ship gets bombed. i'm not decided on whether this should be blocked or not. i guess the majority's opinion should decide it.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:24 pm
by Donelladan
Zombies works like nuke. It turns your regions into neutrals. But except to put it to 1 neutral, it put it to whatever number of troops that was on the territory to neutral.
But concerning your map, zombies would have the exact same effect than nuke.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:33 pm
by Gilligan
DiM wrote:i'm sorry i'm not posting more often but my time is extremely limited. :(

i haven't had the time to play this too much but so far i agree 1v1 can become an attrition battle especially if both players are pirates/merchants.

assassin and terminator games would just play as a standard game so not sure if they really need to be blocked.

not sure how zombies actually work, but the nukes could indeed provide a nasty surprise if your ship gets bombed. i'm not decided on whether this should be blocked or not. i guess the majority's opinion should decide it.


people were exploiting loopholes with manual (ie, manual AoR....but it's not actually manual since you only have one tert) to avoid having to play *real* manual. I don't see how would be any different, for people that don't actually want to play assassin or terminator games but can use this map as an easy get around for the medals.

Re: Pirates and Merchants - V9 - Pg 1&13

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:08 pm
by Winged Cat
Gilligan wrote:how is this concept any different than das schloss? you have to hold the objective to win, that's the only way to do it. yes, there's a way to eliminate, but does anyone do it? no.


6511902 - they do when they have problems holding the objective for an entire round. Which could be a thing with enough players in Escalating Sequential: after enough turns, someone's probably going to cash in a set between any two of your turns, getting significantly more armies than you got on your last set, and they probably only have to break 1 or 2 of your areas (especially if you have a mission that requires spots by name). Unless you ban sunny from this map, then sunny 8 player Escalating Sequential: as before and everyone knows exactly where to stop you.