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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby Gillipig on Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:32 pm

So....you have relatives in Palestinia Saxi?
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Re: Confirmed - Israelis Announce Plan to Bulldoze UNESCO Si

Postby Gweeedo on Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:53 pm

saxitoxin wrote:GENOCIDE UPDATE: AUGUST 8

New Israeli Ethnic Cleansing Video

The whole world agrees the Israelis aren't really trying to engage in "anti-terrorist operations," they're simply trying to engage in ethnic cleansing. Now a new video underscores that - on top of all the other evidence that has been shown. In it, Israeli soldiers cheer and dance as Palestinian homes are destroyed. The commander cheerfully pipes in saying "we're going to see which homes are still intact!" before another volley of tank rounds are unleashed to level the remaining houses of Palestinian children.

No targeted operation or "stray" shells here, just straightforward ethnic cleansing by the worst people in the world.



Green Party Canada President Ousted Over Outrageous Pro-Israel Statement

Throughout the whole world (except the U.S.) expressing support for Israel is correctly viewed as a form of hate speech. Who knows what Canadian Green Party president Paul Estrin was thinking when he had the audacity to declare his support of Israel on the party blog. Now he has been forced to resign in shame and disgrace after an outcry by party members.

The statement angered many party supporters. Some threatened to resign or stop donating, so upset were they by the implication Estrin's views reflected party policy. Party [parliamentary] leader Elizabeth May quickly distanced herself from him. "I didn't know he felt this way about Gaza," she said. "He had not raised this before."

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Green ... story.html


Steve May, a Green Party official who filed the initial complaint against the hatemonger, explained the issue.

Mr. Estrin’s post has no place on the Green Party’s website ... language such as Mr. Estrin’s has no place in any respectful and legitimate discourse on any subject, much less on a site hosted by the Green Party for respectful discourse.

http://sudburysteve.blogspot.com/2014/0 ... trins.html


Estrin's original post has been deleted from the Green Party blog, along with all his other writings over the years. Goodbye.

former GPC president Paul Estrin; people who publicly support groups like the KKK and Israel often face public backlash
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Human Rights Watch: Israelis Shoot Fleeing Civilians in the Back

Kevin Roth, the head of Human Rights Watch, says Israel is shooting fleeing civilians and has called on the State of Palestine to seek the prosecution of Israel in front of the International Criminal Court for war crimes of the most outrageous nature.

Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, fleeing civilians—to shoot at a fleeing civilian is an obvious war crime. That’s deliberately killing a civilian, a noncombatant.

We’re also looking at situations in which the Israelis are using indiscriminate means, such as heavy artillery in heavily populated areas. The laws of war require you to use discriminate means, to focus very narrowly on a military target.

We’re looking at other instances where Israel has targeted a structure which is not a legitimate military target, it’s a civilian home. Often what they’ll say is, "Oh, this was the home of a Hamas commander," and then they’ll blow it up, even though it was the family home and there’s no evidence the commander is even there. That often results in civilian casualties, and that, too, is a war crime.

And finally, we’re looking at cases in which there may well have been a militant there, but Israel fires even though there are many civilians around. And so, you know, for example, when they hit the beach cafe killing nine people watching the World Cup, we don’t even know if there was a militant there, but that was a wholly inappropriate time to shoot. Or when they claimed to have been going after a militant, hit his family home and killed 25 civilians who were breaking the Ramadan fast. These are clearly disproportionate harm to civilians, a war crime regardless of whether there might have been a militant in the vicinity or not.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/6/as ... man_rights


Bummer...such is War; what you gonna do.
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby targetman377 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:59 pm

this thread should now be dead saxi you have switched topics so much spouted out so many generalization then when ever isreal pulled out themselves you switched to show there was a group who want the dome of the rock gone. Well i can show you a group call the kkk that lives in montaina and wants all black people to move out willingingly. Its kinda sad you lump all of isreal together like that... also you claim that haums is your authoritiy but you never once talk about how he came to power? wonder why??
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:40 pm

targetman377 wrote:this thread should now be dead saxi you have switched topics so much spouted out so many generalization then when ever isreal pulled out themselves you switched to show there was a group who want the dome of the rock gone. Well i can show you a group call the kkk that lives in montaina and wants all black people to move out willingingly. Its kinda sad you lump all of isreal together like that... also you claim that haums is your authoritiy but you never once talk about how he came to power? wonder why??


Moving past some of saxi's rhetoric, it was interesting to note that regardless of the subject matter which was mentioned, the pro-Israel diehards ITT would defend it--no matter how insane or immoral it was. It would be similar to pro-Iraq war 2003 diehards supporting something as crazy as the KKK while they're screaming UHMERICA!!!. It was a fun pattern to observe.
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Re: Confirmed - Israelis Announce Plan to Bulldoze UNESCO Si

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:59 pm

Gweeedo wrote:Bummer...such is War; what you gonna do.


If you are a U.S. citizen, you can:
(1) avoid voting for politicians that use code phrases like "Israel's right to defend itself," etc.,
(2) attend any of the dozens of Day of Rage protests that have been called for this Saturday,
(3) donate funds to Christian Aid, Islamic Relief, or Friends of the United Nations Refugee Agency (they need cash to rebuild the numerous schools the Zionists have blown up)
(4) avoid purchasing any products made by The Abomination

If you are the USA president, you can:
(1) stop sending welfare payments to the Israeli government,
(2) stop selling weapons to the Israeli government,
(3) shut-down the U.S. War Reserve Stockpile Israel,
(4) stop vetoing UN Security Council resolutions aimed at Israel,
(5) stop arming the Islamist extremists in the so-called "Islamic State / caliphate" (formerly known as "ISIS," formerly known as the "Syrian rebels," formerly known as the "Syrian youth democracy movement"),
(6) remove Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hezbollah, the Organization of the Oppressed on Earth / Islamic Jihad from the DOJ list of designated foreign terrorist organizations, as the U.S. admirably did briefly in the late '90s and early 00's (before the AIPAC lobby turned up the heat on their bought-and-paid-for congressmen and got them put back on),
(7) stop interfering with Iran's attempts to develop its nuclear warfighting capabilities
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby shickingbrits on Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:29 pm

Wait, who said Iran is attempting to develop a nuke?
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby targetman377 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:36 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
targetman377 wrote:this thread should now be dead saxi you have switched topics so much spouted out so many generalization then when ever isreal pulled out themselves you switched to show there was a group who want the dome of the rock gone. Well i can show you a group call the kkk that lives in montaina and wants all black people to move out willingingly. Its kinda sad you lump all of isreal together like that... also you claim that haums is your authoritiy but you never once talk about how he came to power? wonder why??


Moving past some of saxi's rhetoric, it was interesting to note that regardless of the subject matter which was mentioned, the pro-Israel diehards ITT would defend it--no matter how insane or immoral it was. It would be similar to pro-Iraq war 2003 diehards supporting something as crazy as the KKK while they're screaming UHMERICA!!!. It was a fun pattern to observe.


I will note that. that was pretty good.
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:29 pm

shickingbrits wrote:Wait, who said Iran is attempting to develop a nuke?


Good point, I got ahead of myself.

I hope Iran seeks nuclear weapons so as to incentivize Israel to agree to the NPT treaty and help lead to a nuke free Middle East where no country has the bomb, but you are absolutely correct that there is no unambiguous indications they're attempting to do that.
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:59 pm

Is this the thread that's gonna dethrone the Obamacare thread? I'll check back in another year :D
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby muy_thaiguy on Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:10 am

The derailment of this thread took about 2 posts, and boom, here we are.
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What, you expected something deep or flashy?
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Re: Confirmed - Israelis Announce Plan to Bulldoze UNESCO Si

Postby Gillipig on Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:00 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Gweeedo wrote:Bummer...such is War; what you gonna do.


If you are a U.S. citizen, you can:
(1) avoid voting for politicians that use code phrases like "Israel's right to defend itself," etc.,
(2) attend any of the dozens of Day of Rage protests that have been called for this Saturday,
(3) donate funds to Christian Aid, Islamic Relief, or Friends of the United Nations Refugee Agency (they need cash to rebuild the numerous schools the Zionists have blown up)
(4) avoid purchasing any products made by The Abomination

You forgot #5, Complain about it on the internet.
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Re: Another Day, Another School Bombed by Israel

Postby mrswdk on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:28 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Why would they reward that department for sending funds to Israel?


Because the Department of Defense is increasing national security by funding the efforts of its ally, Israel. The DoD is making the US a safer place. Blah blah blah, US Foreign Policy and its self-serving theory, blah blah blah.


lul. Sounds like a scenario from an article about groupthink.
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:02 pm

I've been staying out of the discussion for the most part, but paying lots of attention here as well as elsewhere, and I have truly come to feel some sympathy for the Palestinian people. Whatever I feel about Israel does not interfere with my conclusion they are going way too far with their attacks and airstrikes and ground operations.
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Re: Human Rights Watch: "Israel Gunning Down Fleeing Civilia

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:00 pm

Genocide Update - "Everyone Hates Israel" Edition

Glasgow Latest City to Fly Palestinian Tricolor

Glasgow became the latest major world city to fly the Palestinian tricolor over its city hall, in solidarity with the Palestinian right to defend itself. Everyone hates Israel!

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Zionist Products Confiscated in Northern Ireland - Stores Begin Pulling Zionist Goods

Belfast residents took control of a Sainsbury's supermarket and removed all Israel-linked products from the shelves, yesterday. Random Sainsbury's may continue to be subject to unannounced raids and having their Israeli-made products confiscated until they figure out it is more cost-effective to just stop selling them. SuperValu got ahead of the curve by urgently emailing all 239 of its stores to pull Israeli-made products from its shelves and not to restock them. Everyone hates Israel!

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 88190.html

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Plans to Stop Israeli Ships from Docking on U.S. West Coast Ports

Meanwhile, in San Francisco - and at least two other west coast U.S. cities - plans are underway to stop Israeli cargo ships scheduled to dock next week. At the San Francisco event ("Block the Boat") more than 2,000 people have so far RSVP'ed via Facebook to stop the pirate ship from the prohibited nation which is scheduled to dock August 16 to sell its goods. Everyone hates Israel!

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Saturday, August 9 - 200,000 in Cape Town - 150,000 in London ... All United Against Israel! (80 Pro-Israel Supporters Rally in Calgary)

Everyone hates Israel!

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Last edited by saxitoxin on Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby mrswdk on Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:31 pm

Hipsters, hipsters everywhere.
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:57 pm

This video shows Zionist stormtroopers using live ammunition against a whopping group of 80 un-armed protesters in Sector H2 (in the West Bank - not in Gaza) earlier this week. At :08 in the video the Zionists execute Nader Edrees by shooting him once in the chest. Others were shot in their knees and legs. It's permitted to periodically "cull" Arabs in Israel to keep the population under control so Edrees' family has no recourse to the courts like they would in a European or North American country. It was a legal street execution.



[Hebron is divided into two zones by race. Sector H2 has 30,000 Palestinians and 1,000 Israelis living in it; Palestinian police are not permitted to enter H2, and the Israeli army enforces martial law 24/7. Any group of 5 or more Palestinian men who assemble in public can be shot without warning in the same way animal control might shoot a pack of feral dogs. Certain streets can also only be used by Jews, and Muslims and Christians are prohibited from walking or driving down them and will be shot if they try. Israelis have also been known to dump their garbage in parks and streets and Palestinians have had to install nets to stop the slobs from trashing the city anymore.]

"the Middle East's only democracy"
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby ooge on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:45 pm

So is this the pattern? Israel goes into Gaza a few years pass Israel goes into the west bank a few years pass and Israel goes back into Gaza.If this is the pattern it seems to be intentional.
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:44 am

Sam Harris: Why Don't I Criticize Israel?

The truth is that there is an obvious, undeniable, and hugely consequential moral difference between Israel and her enemies. The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” This is a political document. We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of Palestinians.

...

What would the Jews do to the Palestinians if they could do anything they wanted? Well, we know the answer to that question, because they can do more or less anything they want. The Israeli army could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow. So what does that mean? Well, it means that, when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill four Palestinian children, as happened last week, this is almost certainly an accident. They’re not targeting children. They could target as many children as they want. Every time a Palestinian child dies, Israel edges ever closer to becoming an international pariah. So the Israelis take great pains not to kill children and other noncombatants.

...

What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason, Israel’s critics just don’t want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the worst of itself. We’ve already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century. People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide, we should listen. There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could.
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:44 am

Metsfanmax wrote:Sam Harris: Why Don't I Criticize Israel?

The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could.


An incredibly uninformed screed. Hamas controls the only armed apparatus capable of resistance in Gaza at this time, it is not the representative of the Palestinian people.

Harris is either knowingly or unwittingly playing into the Zionist agenda - castrate the secular resistance so that people get scared when they see the religious resistance. The political activities of Ahmed Yassin had been prohibited by most Arab nations, only Israel allowed him to freely operate as a strategy to neuter the more popular secular resistance (which included, and includes, some Jewish members). Israel wants to face Hamas instead of the secular resistance for PR reasons. This is well documented.

Second - Harris uses right-wing talk radio memes to conflate the goals of Hamas with the goal of Palestinian liberation. Since he's quoting charters as proof of the inate racial desire of Palestinians to kill every Jew in Israel, I'll quote some as proof to the contrary. From the Palestinian National Charter:

    Article 5:
    The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

    Article 6:
    The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

To show how serious the racist Harris should be taken on this issue, he has previously said:

For instance, [liberals] ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/head_ ... sam_harris


They can keep screaming this line all they want, there is no proof that has ever been the case. But this has become such an article of faith among Israel backers at this point that no evidence is required and any evidence to the contrary is blasphemy that can be dismissed.

Israeli Jewish civilians killed by "the Muslims" in last 45 days: 1*
Palestinian civilians killed by Israelis in last 45 days: 1,408

http://www.ochaopt.org/content.aspx?id=1010361

    * 3 total civilians killed; 1 was a non-Israeli tourist from Thailand and one was a Bedouin
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:46 am

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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:00 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Sam Harris: Why Don't I Criticize Israel?

The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could.


An incredibly uninformed screed. Hamas controls the only armed apparatus capable of resistance in Gaza at this time, it is not the representative of the Palestinian people.

Harris is either knowingly or unwittingly playing into the Zionist agenda - castrate the secular resistance so that people get scared when they see the religious resistance. The political activities of Ahmed Yassin had been prohibited by most Arab nations, only Israel allowed him to freely operate as a strategy to neuter the more popular secular resistance (which included, and includes, some Jewish members). Israel wants to face Hamas instead of the secular resistance for PR reasons. This is well documented.

Second - Harris uses right-wing talk radio memes to conflate the goals of Hamas with the goal of Palestinian liberation. Since he's quoting charters as proof of the inate racial desire of Palestinians to kill every Jew in Israel, I'll quote some as proof to the contrary. From the Palestinian National Charter:

    Article 5:
    The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

    Article 6:
    The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

To show how serious the racist Harris should be taken on this issue, he has previously said:

For instance, [liberals] ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/head_ ... sam_harris


They can keep screaming this line all they want, there is no proof that has ever been the case. But this has become such an article of faith among Israel backers at this point that no evidence is required and any evidence to the contrary is blasphemy that can be dismissed.

Israeli Jewish civilians killed by "the Muslims" in last 45 days: 1*
Palestinian civilians killed by Israelis in last 45 days: 1,408

http://www.ochaopt.org/content.aspx?id=1010361

    * 3 total civilians killed; 1 was a non-Israeli tourist from Thailand and one was a Bedouin


I remember Sam Harris. There was a 6+ hour lecture series about atheism and religion. Sam Harris was the Islamiphobe. I've never heard such prejudiced, backwards shit about an entire group of people--coming from a person who's supposedly an intellectual. Someone stood up in the audience and called him out on his completely unscientific position, and Sam Harris dug in his heels.
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:07 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I remember Sam Harris. There was a 6+ hour lecture series about atheism and religion. Sam Harris was the Islamiphobe. I've never heard such prejudiced, backwards shit about an entire group of people--coming from a person who's supposedly an intellectual. Someone stood up in the audience and called him out on his completely unscientific position, and Sam Harris dug in his heels.


It is actually a fairly common position among public atheist intellectuals to single out Islam as more dangerous/violent than other major religions. Christopher Hitchens took a similar stance. Richard Dawkins is known for making similar comments as well.
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:16 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Sam Harris: Why Don't I Criticize Israel?

The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in Israel if they could.


An incredibly uninformed screed. Hamas controls the only armed apparatus capable of resistance in Gaza at this time, it is not the representative of the Palestinian people.


As he pointed out, Hamas is the representative of the Palestinian people, if we take their election several years back as counting what the Palestinian people want. And also as he pointed out, it doesn't matter if Hamas doesn't represent all of the Palestinian people; it represents enough of them to make the threat credible.

Harris is either knowingly or unwittingly playing into the Zionist agenda - castrate the secular resistance so that people get scared when they see the religious resistance. The political activities of Ahmed Yassin had been prohibited by most Arab nations, only Israel allowed him to freely operate as a strategy to neuter the more popular secular resistance (which included, and includes, some Jewish members). Israel wants to face Hamas instead of the secular resistance for PR reasons. This is well documented.


What Israel wants is less important than what the Palestinians want in this discussion. Sure, of course Israel wants the resistance that is taken the least seriously by the international community -- that is a normal realist stance. If the religious resistance is popular among Palestinians independent of what Israel wants, then Harris' point is legitimate.

For instance, [liberals] ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/head_ ... sam_harris


They can keep screaming this line all they want, there is no proof that has ever been the case. But this has become such an article of faith among Israel backers at this point that no evidence is required and any evidence to the contrary is blasphemy that can be dismissed.


I think he was arguing this as a matter of realism. It is never in Israel's interest to kill innocent civilians unless its policy is that of outright extermination of all Palestinians (which it is clearly not). Every time it does so, it loses international credibility.
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Re: 150,000 People in London Rally Against Israel

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:25 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I remember Sam Harris. There was a 6+ hour lecture series about atheism and religion. Sam Harris was the Islamiphobe. I've never heard such prejudiced, backwards shit about an entire group of people--coming from a person who's supposedly an intellectual. Someone stood up in the audience and called him out on his completely unscientific position, and Sam Harris dug in his heels.


It is actually a fairly common position among public atheist intellectuals to single out Islam as more dangerous/violent than other major religions. Christopher Hitchens took a similar stance. Richard Dawkins is known for making similar comments as well.


Well, I'm not sure what the survey data is, but it's true that those three hold such beliefs. The problem is that compared to the other arguments being made, theirs had the least evidence and the farthest jump to a conclusion. I don't think they realize that (1) any religion given similar circumstances would've been used as a means for violence (or they simply downplay this by cherry-picking from the Quran), (2) one segment of one group != the entire group (e.g. recall during the race riots; similar reasoning to their would conclude: ah-ha, the blacks are violent because they're black!" It's sloppy reasoning).

If I had more time, I'd love to delve into their works because I wonder how they controlled for other relevant factors in determining that Islam is more dangerous and violent than other religions.
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