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ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

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ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby Pirlo on Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:24 am

I haven't paid attention to politics for a while, but some people are getting too much attention, and it seems to be a joy for media to keep telling their horrible stories and massacres against any moving body, especially minorities.

Anyone has a reliable source or info about these guys? Who fund and train them? and tell us something other than r different from what we see in media every 2 minutes.

I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theory, but it might be safe to say they are deliberately terrorizing people for some reason. One theory suggests that they are doing this to pave the road for USA to come back to Iraq; and this time, just for the record, and unlike the 2003 war on Iraq, USA is very welcomed by Iraqi people to intervene. Another theory suggests they are manipulated and secretly controlled by Assad (Syria President), maybe for a distraction purpose, which explains why they hardly fight Syrian soldiers; instead, they fight the rebels or the "Syrian Free Army."

Let's see this interesting example:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... l-facebook

Women stoned to death for 'adultery' in Syria as jihadi rebels impose strict shariah law on areas under their control

Some of you may not be familiar with the so-called Sharia Law, so I'll be cool and explain :mrgreen:

1. It's known for radicals that he/she who commits adultery shall be stoned only if married; otherwise, he/she shall be whipped (80 or 100 times, not sure about the number).. according to the report above, the stoned woman was a widow, so also not sure why she had to be stoned? :shock:

2. Where's the man with whom she committed adultery? The reports mentioned no man.

Well, I don't think there was an "adultery" in the first place. The woman was probably picked randomly because they needed to do something that gets the world's attention, and it's not a secret that abusing a woman is the shortest way to do so. This should explain why no man was involved or punished.

Know wuts funny? Even Al-Qaida describes them as "too violent" :lol:
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:36 am

They're very likely to be an unintended consequence of US foreign policy's tampering with the region, so I'd rule out the first possible conspiracy theory you mentioned.

Other than that, I'm not sure. They look like a bunch of guys with guns who (1) tell people to follow the extreme rules of some silly book, (2) take other people's resources, and (3) are so far successful in their territorial conquests. (But that sums up what the media has been generally blabbing about for awhile, so I'm sorry, DY). :D
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:04 am

The U.S. funded the Syrian "rebels" without any thought of exactly what alternative to Dr. Bashar al-Assad might emerge out of the desert. But the people who have fought to hold the line against the darkness the last 50 years knew exactly what was coming. When Saif al-Islam was captured in Libya, he said, "You people have no idea what you have unleashed. Within a year or two you will learn but, on that day, do not say Saif al-Islam did not warn you." And he was right. The U.S. has single handidly set-out about the end of the world. The unfortunate reality is that ISIS is unstoppable and unbeatable. What's going to happen next is set in stone and will be horrible beyond anyone's imagination.

In 2010, Wikileaks shows, that Syria offered to cooperate with the U.S. in hunting down these takfiri but the U.S. decided "no." Why? Salafists are the #1 threat to the U.S., but the Syrian Arab Republic is the #1 threat to Israel. And the U.S. does what is in Israel's interest, even if it means its own suicide.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/10DA ... HB6RB6UCDN
Last edited by saxitoxin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby Ray Rider on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:09 am

Not sure how serious you are in your questioning, but it's mainly a continuation of the religious conflict between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam, a conflict which first began after the death of Mohammed. Iran, Iraq (after Saddam), and Syria (under the minority Alawite government of Assad) are Shia while the rest of the Islamic world is Sunni, thus they have been funneling support to the rebel Sunni groups in Syria and Iraq which desire to create their own Sunni Islamic state. US foreign policy regarding the region has been either extremely schizophrenic (by supporting some powers on either side of the divide) or has been intentionally fostering chaos in order to keep both sides weak (likely this is the case). Either way, it's tragic for the civilians caught in the middle of the turmoil.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:29 am

Ray Rider wrote:it's mainly a continuation of the religious conflict between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam


There is no religious conflict; that's the version the Historic Bloc [the U.S. and its satellites] sells to try to downplay what's coming next, to make it seem a ho-hum routine of age-old war. In fact, it is a conflict between Islamic fundamentalists on one side, and secular Arabs (including Sunni, Shia, Christian, Druze, and the Non-Religious) on the other side. It is a battle between Modernism or Tradition; a Republic or a Beardocracy.

The U.S. has been attacking Modernism (not because it's opposed to Modernism, just because that's who happens to be on the wrong side of its goals); leaders that introduced equal rights for women and protection of the rights of religious minorities such as in Syria, pre-invasion Libya, and pre-invasion Iraq. Meanwhile, the U.S. defends and arms the traditional (read: stone-age) societies of the fat, cocaine-addicted kings of the gulf emirates who preach hadith while having orgies with 14 year olds. And it less directly helps ISIS, too.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby GabonX on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:55 am

saxitoxin wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:it's mainly a continuation of the religious conflict between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam


There is no religious conflict; that's the USA Today colorful charts version. It is a conflict between Islamic fundamentalists on one side, and secular Arabs (including Sunni, Shia, Christian, Druze, and the Non-Religious) on the other side. It is a battle between Modernism or Tradition; a Republic or a Beardocracy.

The U.S. has been attacking Modernism (not because it's opposed to Modernism, just because that's who happens to be on the wrong side of its goals); leaders that introduced equal rights for women and protection of the rights of religious minorities such as in Syria, pre-invasion Libya, and pre-invasion Iraq. Meanwhile, the U.S. defends and arms the traditional (read: stone-age) societies of the fat, cocaine-addicted kings of the gulf emirates who preach hadith while having orgies with 14 year olds.


Do tell us more Saxi, about how the Husseins and Assads are such wonderful arbiters of human rights :lol:
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:08 am

GabonX wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:it's mainly a continuation of the religious conflict between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam


There is no religious conflict; that's the USA Today colorful charts version. It is a conflict between Islamic fundamentalists on one side, and secular Arabs (including Sunni, Shia, Christian, Druze, and the Non-Religious) on the other side. It is a battle between Modernism or Tradition; a Republic or a Beardocracy.

The U.S. has been attacking Modernism (not because it's opposed to Modernism, just because that's who happens to be on the wrong side of its goals); leaders that introduced equal rights for women and protection of the rights of religious minorities such as in Syria, pre-invasion Libya, and pre-invasion Iraq. Meanwhile, the U.S. defends and arms the traditional (read: stone-age) societies of the fat, cocaine-addicted kings of the gulf emirates who preach hadith while having orgies with 14 year olds.


Do tell us more Saxi, about how the Husseins and Assads are such wonderful arbiters of human rights :lol:


Sure:

- Women don't have to wear hijabs in Syria. That's not an accident and it wasn't always like that, GabonX.
- Women can own land, bring action in court, and sign contracts in Syria. That's not an accident and it wasn't always like that, GabonX.
- There are women cabinet ministers in Syria. That's not an accident and it wasn't always like that, GabonX.

FAFO wrote:Women in Syria enjoy their rights more than in most Arab and Islamic countries. This has been the result of a large scale of opening-up to contemporary civilization at an early stage in which only Egypt and Lebanon have preceded Syria. The government in Syria is keen on empowering women, capable of this, and practices it. Therefore, the official public orientations always include a persistence on equality between men and women.

http://www.fafo.no/ais/middeast/syria/s ... SW-Jabbour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafo


There's a tremendous amount of work that still has to be done in Syria. And I guarantee it has a better chance of being accomplished under the Ba'ath Party than it does under the Islamic Caliphate. You obviously don't believe that. But, you know very little GabonX and believe in the innate racial inferiority of Arabs, a feeling that drips off your posts with your superfluous emoticons and incredulous asides when someone floats a non-comic book version of Arab life by you. You have made your supremacist views abundantly clear in the angry rants and screeds you blast us with from the mobile home park or wherever. You are a crude little goblin of a man consumed by searing hate for people who are different from you.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby GabonX on Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:22 am

If you ignore the mass killings the Baathists in Iraq and Syria carry out against their opposition your post sounds kinda good.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:39 am

GabonX wrote:If you ignore the mass killings the Baathists in Iraq and Syria carry out against their opposition your post sounds kinda good.


By "opposition" you mean "Islamic fundamentalists" (AKA ISIS and its predecessors).

In 1982 the Syrian Arab Army inflicted 10,000 fatalities on the Salafists in Hama. That was obviously horrible, but, the alternative then would be what is happening right now in Iraq. So don't cry your crocodile tears about the Syrian "opposition" while cheering American airstrikes against ISIS. They're the same people.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:34 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:They're very likely to be an unintended consequence of US foreign policy's tampering with the region, so I'd rule out the first possible conspiracy theory you mentioned.

Other than that, I'm not sure. They look like a bunch of guys with guns who (1) tell people to follow the extreme rules of some silly book, (2) take other people's resources, and (3) are so far successful in their territorial conquests. (But that sums up what the media has been generally blabbing about for awhile, so I'm sorry, DY). :D


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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby shickingbrits on Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:00 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:They're very likely to be an unintended consequence of US foreign policy's tampering with the region, so I'd rule out the first possible conspiracy theory you mentioned.

Other than that, I'm not sure. They look like a bunch of guys with guns who (1) tell people to follow the extreme rules of some silly book, (2) take other people's resources, and (3) are so far successful in their territorial conquests. (But that sums up what the media has been generally blabbing about for awhile, so I'm sorry, DY). :D


Unintended consequences of US foreign policy?

Kind of like Mali? Gadafi enjoyed overwhelming support in Libya. He had turned it into one of the richest countries in Africa, guaranteed everyone a house, higher education domestically or abroad and maintained peace. But he challenged US hegemony by trying to introduce a gold standard to trade oil in.

The US then funded opposition. They provided support to Abu Sufian bin Qumu, a former guest at Gitmo. The media was so kind as to attend pro-Gadafi rallies and describe them to the greater public as pro-rebel rallies. 90% of the population gathered to show support for Gadafi. The media was also so kind as to release footage of Gadafi being sodomized to death with a bayonet.

Last spring, our sponsored "freedom" fighters (Al Qaeda) then marched on Mali. Canada and others intervened. Canada was given rights to their gold for intervention.

The "unintended consequences" of these actions miraculously provided the US and it's allies with what they wanted.

ISIS is another example of "unintended consequences" that will provide the US with exactly what it wants. It's almost like funding them makes them do our bidding...
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby patches70 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:24 am

saxitoxin wrote:The unfortunate reality is that ISIS is unstoppable and unbeatable.


I don't think so, saxi.
Hell, Turkey could wipe ISIS off the map if they wanted to and developed the will to do so. Thus far, those who could crush ISIS have decided to simply watch from the sideline for whatever reason.

Even the US was content to just watch until ISIS threatened Erbil. I guess Erbil is the red line to US interests, with good reason I suppose and it was Erbil's threatened fall that finally spurred the US into action.


But I do tentatively agree with you that the Islamic wars with itself is primarily between the modernists and the fundamentals.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby Ray Rider on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:13 am

saxitoxin wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:it's mainly a continuation of the religious conflict between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam


There is no religious conflict; that's the version the Historic Bloc [the U.S. and its satellites] sells to try to downplay what's coming next, to make it seem a ho-hum routine of age-old war...

Actually I've never heard that it was a Sunni/Shia religious conflict from Western media; that is what I learned from speaking directly to Muslim Arabs in Jordan, Israel, and Egypt on my recent trip to the Middle East. That is what the locals there whom I met describe it as.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:57 am

shickingbrits wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:They're very likely to be an unintended consequence of US foreign policy's tampering with the region, so I'd rule out the first possible conspiracy theory you mentioned.

Other than that, I'm not sure. They look like a bunch of guys with guns who (1) tell people to follow the extreme rules of some silly book, (2) take other people's resources, and (3) are so far successful in their territorial conquests. (But that sums up what the media has been generally blabbing about for awhile, so I'm sorry, DY). :D


Unintended consequences of US foreign policy?

Kind of like Mali? Gadafi enjoyed overwhelming support in Libya. He had turned it into one of the richest countries in Africa, guaranteed everyone a house, higher education domestically or abroad and maintained peace. But he challenged US hegemony by trying to introduce a gold standard to trade oil in.

The US then funded opposition. They provided support to Abu Sufian bin Qumu, a former guest at Gitmo. The media was so kind as to attend pro-Gadafi rallies and describe them to the greater public as pro-rebel rallies. 90% of the population gathered to show support for Gadafi. The media was also so kind as to release footage of Gadafi being sodomized to death with a bayonet.

Last spring, our sponsored "freedom" fighters (Al Qaeda) then marched on Mali. Canada and others intervened. Canada was given rights to their gold for intervention.

The "unintended consequences" of these actions miraculously provided the US and it's allies with what they wanted.

ISIS is another example of "unintended consequences" that will provide the US with exactly what it wants. It's almost like funding them makes them do our bidding...


It's possible that the US funded elements of ISIS, but I haven't seen anything definitive. It's an unintended consequence because it's not like the US foresaw all of this happening when they destabilized the entire region by taking Iraq, AFG, by bombing Libya, and by funding insurgents in Syria. Of course, something bad was increasingly becoming more likely, but the usual argument against that is "it won't be that bad" or "we did the best we could" or "well, it would've been even worse had we not intervened."

The bar for arguing that the US intended for all of this to happen is much higher. You'd need more evidence. Also, it's government; they're quite incompetent in (a) post-war reconstruction, (b) generating sustainable wealth and institutions through foreign aid, (c) promoting the 'public good' within their own borders, etc. The problem with conspiracy theorists, which you seem to be, is that there's a paradox where government is in reality very incompetent but somehow awesome at pulling off even more complicated plans abroad.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby Ray Rider on Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:02 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:It's possible that the US funded elements of ISIS, but I haven't seen anything definitive. It's an unintended consequence because it's not like the US foresaw all of this happening when they destabilized the entire region by taking Iraq, AFG, by bombing Libya, and by funding insurgents in Syria. Of course, something bad was increasingly becoming more likely, but the usual argument against that is "it won't be that bad" or "we did the best we could" or "well, it would've been even worse had we not intervened."

The bar for arguing that the US intended for all of this to happen is much higher. You'd need more evidence. Also, it's government; they're quite incompetent in (a) post-war reconstruction, (b) generating sustainable wealth and institutions through foreign aid, (c) promoting the 'public good' within their own borders, etc. The problem with conspiracy theorists, which you seem to be, is that there's a paradox where government is in reality very incompetent but somehow awesome at pulling off even more complicated plans abroad.

Haha so true...
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby shickingbrits on Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:02 pm

The problem with your theory is that:

1. You have assumed that I consider the US government incompetent,
2. You assume the US government is incompetent.

You cannot prove 1, because it is not true. I consider the government extremely competent in carrying out its intentions. As to why moves us to 2.

The only way you can call the US government incompetent is thus: The US government is the most incompetent government, except for all the other governments in the world. The US in the sole superpower, defeating all competitors. How does this equate to incompetence?

False flag operations were described in the Art of War, a 2500 year old text which is mandatory reading for all officers in the US military. Is the US so incompetent that it could not pull one off (remember the US has the most competent military in the world) or made of stronger moral stuff (the US have overthrown more than 100 democratically elected governments)?
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby GoranZ on Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:32 pm

GabonX wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:it's mainly a continuation of the religious conflict between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam


There is no religious conflict; that's the USA Today colorful charts version. It is a conflict between Islamic fundamentalists on one side, and secular Arabs (including Sunni, Shia, Christian, Druze, and the Non-Religious) on the other side. It is a battle between Modernism or Tradition; a Republic or a Beardocracy.

The U.S. has been attacking Modernism (not because it's opposed to Modernism, just because that's who happens to be on the wrong side of its goals); leaders that introduced equal rights for women and protection of the rights of religious minorities such as in Syria, pre-invasion Libya, and pre-invasion Iraq. Meanwhile, the U.S. defends and arms the traditional (read: stone-age) societies of the fat, cocaine-addicted kings of the gulf emirates who preach hadith while having orgies with 14 year olds.


Do tell us more Saxi, about how the Husseins and Assads are such wonderful arbiters of human rights :lol:

Usually US wants blood, it is the case in every part of the world US put their fingers into. You guys have blood thirsty governments for very long time. You even manage to create organizations like Al-Qaeda to target your country. ISIS might be able to do the same sometimes :)
Since US started mixing its fingers in Iraq/Syria, the region is going from bad to worse... so yes Husseins and Assads are 1000 times better then the dongs that US wants to install. On top of everything both Husseins and Assads were acting predominately secular.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby shickingbrits on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:05 pm

Saying that the US government's annual sales of $681bn of war to the US people is incompetence is like saying Apple is a charity that just happens to get really good donations.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:32 pm

I do not believe the U.S. funded ISIS.

However, the fact that the U.S. funded and armed opponents to the Syrian government (non-ISIS) has been publicly announced by the White House proudly and repeatedly. That those opponents attacked the Syrian government is common news. That the Syrian Arab Army was weakened and drained by these attacks is common news. This left the S.A.A. a shell of its former self; drained of men, munitions and its ability to obtain more of the latter on the international markets due to sanctions and embargoes advanced by the U.S.

The U.S. did not directly aid ISIS, but were it not for U.S. meddling - done for a short-term goal of castrating Syria as a threat to Israel (notice how president Obama-McCain dropped his formerly intense public interest in Syrian "human rights" the minute Syria turned in its chemical deterrent) - ISIS would have been wiped aside in a matter of days by the S.A.A., just like the S.A.A. smashed the Islamists the last time they tried to take over the the cradle of civilization, in 1982.

Syria was being raped and the U.S. held it down as the rapist mounted. The fact the U.S. didn't get its dick wet doesn't make it less guilty.

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saxitoxin wrote:
Ray Rider wrote:it's mainly a continuation of the religious conflict between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam


There is no religious conflict; that's the version the Historic Bloc [the U.S. and its satellites] sells to try to downplay what's coming next, to make it seem a ho-hum routine of age-old war...

Actually I've never heard that it was a Sunni/Shia religious conflict from Western media; that is what I learned from speaking directly to Muslim Arabs in Jordan, Israel, and Egypt on my recent trip to the Middle East. That is what the locals there whom I met describe it as.


I don't know what to tell you. Ask a Syrian.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby patches70 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:35 pm

Lets see....

-IRS loses emails, loses hard drives in violation of federal law
-Benghazi debacle
-Fast and Furious debacle
-USPS in the last 40 quarters (10 years) had revenues of $700 billion but costs of about $750 billion, net loss about $50 billion
-Fannie May and Freddie Mac, endless money pits that have to be bailed out virtually every year by Congress
-The VA debacle
-The Libya debacle
-Iraq, Mission Accomplished (Bush Jr, 2003)
-Iraq, "We leave Iraq stable and secure" (Obama, 2013)
-McCain "ipods and iphones are made in America" (McCain, 2010)
-NIH's (National Institutes of Health) $442,340 study of male prostitute's behavior in Vietnam
-The Federal tax code that is 70,000 pages long
-$1.15 million federal stimulus funds allocated to put a guard rail around Optima Lake, Oklahoma. The problem is, Optima lake doesn't exist.
-February, 2014, the federal deficit for that single month was $223 billion. The single largest monthly deficit in the history of the US
-$389,000 in federal stimulus grants to study 100 resident in Buffalo, NY to find out how much Malt liquor and marijuana they could consume in a day
-The government shutdown, 2011, over $61 billion in cuts. $61 billion representing about 2% of the total budget
-Hurricane Katrina aftermath (unless you want to make the case that it was a highly successful effort)


I, or anyone else, could go on and on and on about just how incompetent the US government is. So, anyone, feel free to add to the list of the never ending bungles of government.
And that's not even taking into account the government graft, crimes and other misdemeanors and high crimes that various elected and appointed officials get themselves involved in!
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby shickingbrits on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:49 pm

Let's see...

If I don't present myself to court, I can be imprisoned for withholding evidence. If I tell a lie, I can be imprisoned for perjury.

When the IRS withholds evidence and lies about it, we call it incompetence. They weren't doing anything bad because they were too stupid to be doing anything bad.

I can go on and on with this, but I will save you the kneejerks. The US has convinced its population to do whatever it wants with their own money and ignore any negative effects it has on them. It has convinced the US taxpayer not to hold them accountable to trillions spent on war by selling them a $500,000 piece of trivia. It's cheaper than it costs to air one episode of SNL. Live from Rockefeller Center its Saturday Night.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:55 pm

shickingbrits wrote:The problem with your theory is that:

1. You have assumed that I consider the US government incompetent,
2. You assume the US government is incompetent.

You cannot prove 1, because it is not true. I consider the government extremely competent in carrying out its intentions. As to why moves us to 2.


So, how do you explain the failure of post-war reconstruction in Iraq and AFG?

[Note: if you change the goal posts by saying, "well X wasn't the REAL intention of government," then your theory becomes completely arbitrary. For example, whatever contradicts your theory of government, you'll rubber stamp as "not their TRUE intentions," and whatever you want government to intend, you'll simply state that's what they intend].


shickingbrits wrote:The only way you can call the US government incompetent is thus: The US government is the most incompetent government, except for all the other governments in the world. The US in the sole superpower, defeating all competitors. How does this equate to incompetence?


Here's a better standard: efficiency. You can also compare government-induced order to other governments (e.g. liberal democratic governments like GER, FRA, etc). And you can also compare government-induced order and govt-provided goods to market provided goods and market provided order.

If the goal is: SUPREME DOMINATION, then I guess you got me there, but I doubt each bureaucrat and politician goes to work and thinks, "how can I make US a global hegemon?"



shickingbrits wrote:False flag operations were described in the Art of War, a 2500 year old text which is mandatory reading for all officers in the US military. Is the US so incompetent that it could not pull one off (remember the US has the most competent military in the world) or made of stronger moral stuff (the US have overthrown more than 100 democratically elected governments)?


I'm pretty sure the government can pull off some percent of 'false flag ops', but it doesn't mean that every event you see is the direct result of the US government. "If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything looks like nail," as the saying goes.

You keep saying the government is competent because it topples government. You're overlooking the history of government's incompetence in the arenas which I've already mentioned. If you disagree, please explain how government excels in aiding the poor, creating optimal health care policies, etc.

Or better yet: read some books and get back to me.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:59 pm

shickingbrits wrote:Saying that the US government's annual sales of $681bn of war to the US people is incompetence is like saying Apple is a charity that just happens to get really good donations.


Sure, that's incompetent because it's wasteful. There is such a thing as providing too much of something. That was easy.

Your analogy is dumb because a corporation isn't at all a government. One operates by profit-and-loss accounting, the other operates by political clout, rent-seeking, prestige, budget-maximization, etc.
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Re: ISIS - Who da f*ck are you?

Postby shickingbrits on Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:30 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
shickingbrits wrote:The problem with your theory is that:

1. You have assumed that I consider the US government incompetent,
2. You assume the US government is incompetent.

You cannot prove 1, because it is not true. I consider the government extremely competent in carrying out its intentions. As to why moves us to 2.


So, how do you explain the failure of post-war reconstruction in Iraq and AFG?

[Note: if you change the goal posts by saying, "well X wasn't the REAL intention of government," then your theory becomes completely arbitrary. For example, whatever contradicts your theory of government, you'll rubber stamp as "not their TRUE intentions," and whatever you want government to intend, you'll simply state that's what they intend].


shickingbrits wrote:The only way you can call the US government incompetent is thus: The US government is the most incompetent government, except for all the other governments in the world. The US in the sole superpower, defeating all competitors. How does this equate to incompetence?


Here's a better standard: efficiency. You can also compare government-induced order to other governments (e.g. liberal democratic governments like GER, FRA, etc). And you can also compare government-induced order and govt-provided goods to market provided goods and market provided order.

If the goal is: SUPREME DOMINATION, then I guess you got me there, but I doubt each bureaucrat and politician goes to work and thinks, "how can I make US a global hegemon?"



shickingbrits wrote:False flag operations were described in the Art of War, a 2500 year old text which is mandatory reading for all officers in the US military. Is the US so incompetent that it could not pull one off (remember the US has the most competent military in the world) or made of stronger moral stuff (the US have overthrown more than 100 democratically elected governments)?


I'm pretty sure the government can pull off some percent of 'false flag ops', but it doesn't mean that every event you see is the direct result of the US government. "If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything looks like nail," as the saying goes.

You keep saying the government is competent because it topples government. You're overlooking the history of government's incompetence in the arenas which I've already mentioned. If you disagree, please explain how government excels in aiding the poor, creating optimal health care policies, etc.

Or better yet: read some books and get back to me.


BBS, you are like a toy that has run out of batteries that are no longer in production.

I don't really like wild goose chases, but thanks for the offer.

The US government lied about why they were going to Iraq, how they would be received, how long they thought it would take, declared a false victory and now I'm supposed to ignore the intentions that they had in going into Iraq and act as if those lies were not told and so that I'm able to even address the question according to your terms.

Act like history doesn't exist and the government honestly wanted a stable Iraq, now explain how they failed.

Efficiency at what? At receiving payment? At manipulating their population? Why do you feel it is in the government's best interest to create optimal health care policies or aid the poor? Without the threat of poverty, sickness, war or jail, what would motivate your population to finance your policies?
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