Page 2 of 2

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:14 pm
by BigBallinStalin
GoranZ wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:Not surprised Hong Kong is doing this. Up until recently, they had Western standards of freedom. Now, they're under Chinese rule, and look at Tienanmen Square. Be safe Hong Kong residents.

You mean Hong Kong was under 150 years concession of UK that "recently" ended... That "recently" was in 1997, 17 years ago :D
Hong Kong is not under Chinese rule... its essential part of China, and in China apply Chinese rules.

I think now China understands why straighten its ties with Russia will bring bigger stability for her.


You say that as if it's a good thing. Why is it reasonable for HK to increasingly resemble the Chinese model of government--when HK's model has produced one of the richest and more free places in the world?

Economically, both China and HK are doing quite good, and hardly which country in the world can compare to their economical success. So both systems create rich people. However demonstrations like the one happening now undermine economic growth in both systems. The conclusion that HK will become less democratic after 2017 is more or less a speculation... Even now HK(or most of the other "democratic" countries in the world) actually dont have democratic system. Only ballot paper with "none of above" in their list can create Democratic system, everything else is a farce(but this is different story).


Your claims are inaccurate if you compare HK's and PRC's GDPs, Freedom Index ranking, freedom of press ranking, etc.

According to the Polity IV rankings of democracy, HK is 'way up there' with the Western European countries and Uhmerica. China is not. There's a big difference. There's more to those democratic governments than a ballot box; otherwise, crummy democracies like Iran and Pakistan would be politically indistinguishable from Western democracies (if we applied your reasoning to the extreme).

So, back to your point: "its essential part of China, and in China apply Chinese rules." It doesn't make sense. It would've been more profitable for the PRC if they simply taxed HK and left them alone. The PRC's constant buggering with HK unsurprisingly results in larger protests.

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:32 pm
by GoranZ
BigBallinStalin wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:Not surprised Hong Kong is doing this. Up until recently, they had Western standards of freedom. Now, they're under Chinese rule, and look at Tienanmen Square. Be safe Hong Kong residents.

You mean Hong Kong was under 150 years concession of UK that "recently" ended... That "recently" was in 1997, 17 years ago :D
Hong Kong is not under Chinese rule... its essential part of China, and in China apply Chinese rules.

I think now China understands why straighten its ties with Russia will bring bigger stability for her.


You say that as if it's a good thing. Why is it reasonable for HK to increasingly resemble the Chinese model of government--when HK's model has produced one of the richest and more free places in the world?

Economically, both China and HK are doing quite good, and hardly which country in the world can compare to their economical success. So both systems create rich people. However demonstrations like the one happening now undermine economic growth in both systems. The conclusion that HK will become less democratic after 2017 is more or less a speculation... Even now HK(or most of the other "democratic" countries in the world) actually dont have democratic system. Only ballot paper with "none of above" in their list can create Democratic system, everything else is a farce(but this is different story).


Your claims are inaccurate if you compare HK's and PRC's GDPs, Freedom Index ranking, freedom of press ranking, etc.

I'm not comparing GDP... or GDP per capita, only comparing the successes in increase of their GDP. On this field both China and HK are quite solid in the last 17 years.

BigBallinStalin wrote:According to the Polity IV rankings of democracy, HK is 'way up there' with the Western European countries and Uhmerica. China is not. There's a big difference. There's more to those democratic governments than a ballot box; otherwise, crummy democracies like Iran and Pakistan would be politically indistinguishable from Western democracies (if we applied your reasoning to the extreme).

So, back to your point: "its essential part of China, and in China apply Chinese rules." It doesn't make sense. It would've been more profitable for the PRC if they simply taxed HK and left them alone. The PRC's constant buggering with HK unsurprisingly results in larger protests.

China needs HK, and HK needs China, I think that China wont drastically change HK's government. For now they probably only want more influence there. If China wanted to extremely change HK they had chance to do that many times but they chose not to. As I said previously Chinese idea is to make HK more Chinese, not more Western, but probably without losing HK's success in many fields.

P.S. In the last 20-30 year China has 1 ruling party, America has 2, but there are countries that have many times more ruling parties then China+America combined together. In really it doesn't matter how many ruling parties are there in one country, it matter how much they listen to the general population and work for its interests.

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:33 pm
by oVo
The United States has the illusion of two "ruling parties"
but it's actually just two cheeks of the same ass.

I worry about the safety of protesters... it took a long
time to drag in military forces from distant provinces
to carry out the Tiananmen Square massacre. The heavy
handed violent response went far beyond the students
and others in the square.

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:04 pm
by AndyDufresne
GoranZ wrote:China needs HK, and HK needs China, I think that China wont drastically change HK's government. For now they probably only want more influence there. If China wanted to extremely change HK they had chance to do that many times but they chose not to.

No, they've just chosen not to do it one single instance. They've chosen the piecemeal approach to attempt to make it more palatable probably, since obviously it seems like some are not fond of the changes.


--Andy

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:28 am
by macbone
Oh, it's being changed, slowly but surely. The national education plan last year was one method to teach (opponents said brainwash) students to be good patriotic citizens. Other moves, like developing new towns near the border with the mainland and connecting Hong Kong and China via high-speed rail are seen by many to be more ways to integrate Hong Kong into greater China. Still other people are upset at immigrants from mainland China moving to Hong Kong and being eligible for government assistance. It's easy enough to change a people's overall ideology if it can be stocked with more citizens who have the right mindset.

Of course, Hong Kong's always been an immigrant city. 150 years ago, this place was just a handful of fishing villages.

Here's a video from traffic cameras at Causeway Bay on Sunday night posted by the South China Morning Post:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:36 am
by DoomYoshi
This is what I envision when I think of pro-CPC people:
Image

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:10 am
by notyou2
DoomYoshi wrote:This is what I envision when I think of pro-CCP people:
Image


They make the Russian signs in English?

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:45 am
by DoomYoshi
notyou2 wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:This is what I envision when I think of pro-CCP people:
Image


They make the Russian signs in English?


That was on the Left Coast.

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:45 am
by macbone
It's been really calm the past few days. The government is playing it smart and ignoring the protesters for the most part.

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:51 am
by 2dimes
DoomYoshi wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:This is what I envision when I think of pro-CCP people:
Image


They make the Russian signs in English?


That was on the Left Coast.

That picture started a Google chain reaction. I have been reading and looking at Hanford pictures.

Going to be 60 years since the Manhattan project in 2015.

Re: Is Hong Kong going to be a repeat of Tiananmen Square?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:51 am
by Neoteny
The guy who does Nukemap has a pretty interesting blog that focuses on nuclear secrecy. Check that out for some cool pics and history, if you haven't already.