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PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby Endgame422 on Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:42 pm

mrswdk wrote:
Endgame422 wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:If the Hitlers on the site are forced to change their name, the various Stalins and Maos should be forced to change theirs.


Not a valid comparison.

inb4 20m people starved hurr durr

In the context this was written in it certainly is a valid comparison. That was about people's names that could be offensive. Not about who is better/worse as a person, or about the related politics you want it to be. The point was people could be offended by Mao references on this site and here you are,offended.


What could possibly be offensive about someone choosing the handle 'Mao'? Would you be offended if I called myself 'GeorgeBush'?

Regardless of your political opinion of Mao,there is no denying he is controversial. This thread is evidence of that.
It is similar to any other politically motivated handle in that it will upset people who are ideologically opposed to him. Just like an abortion related name or a gay rights related name, it's automatically inflammatory to anyone with an opposing viewpoint.
That said duk showed up here to make a case against Mao, so my defense of his statement is a tad bit meaningless,but I think the former chairman is too controversial a figure not to be compared with these 2.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:15 pm

mrswdk wrote:
The Racist Diplodocus wrote:There was no starvation in the big coastal cities or in the far north, where most people were loyal to Mao.


Well, duh. Food was taken from the countryside to fuel the industrialization of the cities. Hence the lack of starvation in the cities. And of course, as I said before, the starvation in the countryside was accidental anyways.


>food was taken from the countryside
>the starvation in the countryside was accidental anyways





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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby mrswdk on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:04 pm

They didn't realize they were taking too much. However, they were and thus people starved.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby muy_thaiguy on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:39 pm

mrswdk wrote:wai_mai_guy, I'm not playing with the names to insult you. I just do it to keep myself amused. Ask Biebs/BigBootyStalin.

You have clearly been so indoctrinated by the anti-China fanatics that I am never going to get through to you, as illustrated by the glaring factual errors you are making in your denigration of Mao. Do a little research, learn about the GLF and then get back to me.

Just going off of history. Not Chinese brainwashing, I mean, education.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:57 pm

mrswdk wrote:They didn't realize they were taking too much. However, they were and thus people starved.


Not only is it the high taxes but also the prohibition of exchange and the collectivization of agricultural which also discouraged production, thus the bad policies create bad outcomes. Therefore, people up top making and enforcing such decisions get the blame (Mao and the CCP). The problem was socialism because it's theoretically incoherent and totally vulnerable to opportunistic behavior (corruption). From start, it was doomed to fail--as was explained in the 1930s during the Socialist Calculation debate. The critics were ignored cuz ONWARD TO SOCIALISM.

It's reasonable to blame idiotic governments--including Mao--for such consequences, regardless of their imagined intentions. A well-intended vigilante who accidentally yet systematically shoots innocent children deserves nothing but scorn. Your position amounts to whitewashing. It's pretty weird.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby mrswdk on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:35 am

My position? My position is that accidentally causing a bunch of deaths with well-intentioned but misguided policies is not at all comparable to sending trainloads of people to death camps or nuking major civilian cities.

Are suicide bombers the same thing as bus drivers who crash and cause the deaths of their passengers? Are surgeons who make a mistake during an operation the same thing as a crack head who stabs you in the throat for your phone? No, just as the Great Leap Forward is absolutely not the same thing as the Holocaust or the gulags.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby mrswdk on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:42 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:
mrswdk wrote:wai_mai_guy, I'm not playing with the names to insult you. I just do it to keep myself amused. Ask Biebs/BigBootyStalin.

You have clearly been so indoctrinated by the anti-China fanatics that I am never going to get through to you, as illustrated by the glaring factual errors you are making in your denigration of Mao. Do a little research, learn about the GLF and then get back to me.

Just going off of history. Not Chinese brainwashing, I mean, education.


Well you seem to think that Mao apologized for the GLF and then continued on with it anyway and that he caused the Chinese economy to 'tank', so I guess no one's educational system (or ability to carry out simple fact checks) is coming out of this discussion in a positive light.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:23 am

mrswdk wrote:My position? My position is that accidentally causing a bunch of deaths with well-intentioned but misguided policies is not at all comparable to sending trainloads of people to death camps or nuking major civilian cities.

Are suicide bombers the same thing as bus drivers who crash and cause the deaths of their passengers? Are surgeons who make a mistake during an operation the same thing as a crack head who stabs you in the throat for your phone? No, just as the Great Leap Forward is absolutely not the same thing as the Holocaust or the gulags.


Yeah, sorry, that's a bullshit excuse--especially after socialists had been warned about their nonsense. Maybe it's excusable if the well-intended person accidentally killed one person, and maaayybe if they dismissed any warnings as "bourgeoisie," but when they keep systematically killing and coercing so many people... c'mon. If you're gonna excuse that, it just sounds like whitewashing. Such outcomes of central planning to that large of a degree are not accidental (haha, even Chiang Kai-shek was favorable to such planning. Fascism and Naziism were inevitable outcomes of socialist thinking).

Sure, those events are "not the same thing," but they're comparatively just as fucked up and reprehensible. You're not thinking rationally about this.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:48 am

The GLF wasn't even that bad compared to his cultural revolution.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby muy_thaiguy on Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:37 am

mrswdk wrote:
muy_thaiguy wrote:
mrswdk wrote:wai_mai_guy, I'm not playing with the names to insult you. I just do it to keep myself amused. Ask Biebs/BigBootyStalin.

You have clearly been so indoctrinated by the anti-China fanatics that I am never going to get through to you, as illustrated by the glaring factual errors you are making in your denigration of Mao. Do a little research, learn about the GLF and then get back to me.

Just going off of history. Not Chinese brainwashing, I mean, education.


Well you seem to think that Mao apologized for the GLF and then continued on with it anyway and that he caused the Chinese economy to 'tank', so I guess no one's educational system (or ability to carry out simple fact checks) is coming out of this discussion in a positive light.

Only going off of what you personally said with that. He "apologized" after a few years and 45 million deaths? Yeah, "unintentional" my ass. And that part is simply common sense, hence the "I'm sorry" South Park video I posted. He said one thing, but his action indicate otherwise.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:18 am

you guys are idiots
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby mrswdk on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:06 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Yeah, sorry, that's a bullshit excuse--especially after socialists had been warned about their nonsense.


Warned by who - the same people who'd spent the previous century invading, exploiting and trying to control China? Who had been directly funding and supplying the KMT government which had tried to crush Mao? Gee, I wonder why he didn't listen.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby mrswdk on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:16 am

ITT: whymeguy and BigBallinNoworsethanmao continue to accuse Mao of intentional slaughter despite hearing very clear arguments to the contrary.

It's okay guys, China's capitalist now. You can turn off the propaganda hose.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:46 am

mrswdk wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Yeah, sorry, that's a bullshit excuse--especially after socialists had been warned about their nonsense.


Warned by who - the same people who'd spent the previous century invading, exploiting and trying to control China? Who had been directly funding and supplying the KMT government which had tried to crush Mao? Gee, I wonder why he didn't listen.


Well, Hayek and Mises spent 10 years trying to show socialists that socialism was incoherent and impractical, but it's understandable if the German, then English, translations didn't make it to China ("bourgeoisie literature!!!" "capitalist pigs!!"). I'm pretty sure the Chinese authorities (CCP and KMT) had more pressing questions--as oppose to wondering if central planning was counter-productive (they didn't have much doubt though). So, basically you're justifying the acts of a well-intended homicidal maniac who is hardly concerned with intellectually challenging his own beliefs.

I don't see how Mises and Hayek were supporting the KMT. Many in the US during the 1930s--e.g. FDR and his main man Rexford Tugwell--were enthusiastic about fascism in Italy and the socialism of the Soviet Union. The US merely placed their bets on the socialism of the KMT rather than the socialism of the CCP, so your excuse is weak. You're still whitewashing terrible policies implemented by terrible politicians--especially Mao.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:47 am

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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby nietzsche on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:20 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, Hayek and Mises spent 10 years trying to show socialists that socialism was incoherent and impractical, but it's understandable if the German, then English, translations didn't make it to China ("bourgeoisie literature!!!" "capitalist pigs!!").



Wasn't a propaganda war going on?

There will always be critics for whatever you do. And if what you are doing involves millions of people and million of dollars you will find critics for sure. How were they supposed to know if the critics were correct?

That argument is poor and non-conclusive.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:34 pm

nietzsche wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, Hayek and Mises spent 10 years trying to show socialists that socialism was incoherent and impractical, but it's understandable if the German, then English, translations didn't make it to China ("bourgeoisie literature!!!" "capitalist pigs!!").



That argument is poor and non-conclusive because:
Image

There will always be critics for whatever you do. And if what you are doing involves millions of people and million of dollars you will find critics for sure. How were they supposed to know if the critics were correct?


Image
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby mrswdk on Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:35 am

I don't mean Mao was just ignoring anything and everything that came out of historically imperialist countries. Marx and Lenin weren't exactly your typical Han Chinese and nor were the various European and American scholars who were advocating socialism at the time, but Mao listened to a bunch of them.

When I say 'Mao and the CCP were unlikely to listen to those who had previously been busy oppressing China' I mean that it's unsurprising Mao didn't want to listen when US/UK politicians and global financial organizations tried to coax China into their free trade capitalism world order. The Great Powers had been forcing China into their global system throughout the previous century and up until that point it had worked out very badly for China.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby nietzsche on Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:54 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, Hayek and Mises spent 10 years trying to show socialists that socialism was incoherent and impractical, but it's understandable if the German, then English, translations didn't make it to China ("bourgeoisie literature!!!" "capitalist pigs!!").



That argument is poor and non-conclusive because:
Image

There will always be critics for whatever you do. And if what you are doing involves millions of people and million of dollars you will find critics for sure. How were they supposed to know if the critics were correct?


Image


Take it easy, i'm not exactly contradicting you i'm just saying that its easy now in retrospect to see the error and look for any warning and say " you should've listened to it!!!". It would have been more difficult in the moment. For any decision as big as that one there will always be some who say go for it and others who say stop.

Jeezz, you are so sensitive since saxi did that thing to you.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby tzor on Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:16 am

Not that I would ever want to defend Mao, but when you have a massive bureaucracy and levels of officials it often happens that "bad news" never filters to the top, because "bad news" can get the lower levels of the system killed.

Here is a section from Wikipedia on cover ups of the famine, one was intended to deceive Mao himself.

show
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:38 am

nietzsche wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, Hayek and Mises spent 10 years trying to show socialists that socialism was incoherent and impractical, but it's understandable if the German, then English, translations didn't make it to China ("bourgeoisie literature!!!" "capitalist pigs!!").



That argument is poor and non-conclusive because:
Image

There will always be critics for whatever you do. And if what you are doing involves millions of people and million of dollars you will find critics for sure. How were they supposed to know if the critics were correct?


Image


Take it easy, i'm not exactly contradicting you i'm just saying that its easy now in retrospect to see the error and look for any warning and say " you should've listened to it!!!". It would have been more difficult in the moment. For any decision as big as that one there will always be some who say go for it and others who say stop.

Jeezz, you are so sensitive since saxi did that thing to you.


Nietz, ya need to troll harder.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:41 am

mrswdk wrote:I don't mean Mao was just ignoring anything and everything that came out of historically imperialist countries. Marx and Lenin weren't exactly your typical Han Chinese and nor were the various European and American scholars who were advocating socialism at the time, but Mao listened to a bunch of them.

When I say 'Mao and the CCP were unlikely to listen to those who had previously been busy oppressing China' I mean that it's unsurprising Mao didn't want to listen when US/UK politicians and global financial organizations tried to coax China into their free trade capitalism world order. The Great Powers had been forcing China into their global system throughout the previous century and up until that point it had worked out very badly for China.


Haha, okay. You don't know what you're talking about. Maybe after I post this, you can repeat points which have already been addressed.

What did you say earlier? " Do a little research." Yeahhhh, go do that.
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby Army of GOD on Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:47 pm

all of you have been trolled
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Re: PROOF: Dinosaurs are sinophobic

Postby tzor on Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:28 pm

Army of GOD wrote:all of you have been trolled


I thought that was the purpose of this forum.
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