Conquer Club

Dice Complaints and Various Suggestions to Fix Them

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Re: New Dice Generator *Rejected*

Postby hecter on Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:05 pm

Twill wrote:Without saying too much about how the system works...it doesn't work that way :)

The dice file is random, thus meaning that if we cycle over it is still random...it's just the same random random numbers over again.

It is also impossible to predict/reserve which number you are getting, even if you had access to the file and a millisecond timer and trigger finger (there are what, 10 dice rolls ever second?).

The system doesn't just "cycle through" the numbers. there is a bit more randomness added in and the randomness which is added in is in fact based on randomness pulled from a random source. (that makes it several layers of random deep I think)

Aaaaaaaand, the dice file is replaced from time to time just to keep things interesting and add more randomness to the system.

Hope that puts your mind at ease there a bit :)

Have a good one
Twill

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37918&p=983902&hilit=dice+file#p983902
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Re: New Dice Generator *Rejected*

Postby e_i_pi on Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:08 pm

waynef100 wrote:thank you for your thoughtful answer!

so assuming you have the dice file and can predict roughly where in the dice file conquer cub is currently (very easy to do).... it *is* possible for someone to perform say... a 60 army attack at a fairly "quiet" time on conquer club and receive the EXACT SAME dice rolls for another 60 army attack later during another "quiet" time.

i ask you what the odds of that (2 60-army attacks generating the exact same sequence of rolls) happening in real life are ... i propose that number in real game play is very very very low.... but almost 1 on conquer club if you are aware of the current position in the dice file. on the second attempt you may not get all 60 rolls the same but you will get a large number the same including back-to-back-to-back-etc similar rolls.

No, this is an incorrect assumption based on exactly what I said previously. There are no quiet times on CC, therefore the number of times you will get exactly the same dice is miniscule, probably very close to the chances of the same happening in real life.
since this behavior does not really exist in real life but can be replicated on conquer cub i conclude the dice do not exhibit real-world behavior.

I would think that conclusion is easy to come to, based on the fact that you're not actually rolling physical dice on a physical surface :roll: The difference between real-world dice and the dice on CC is negligible, I have proven it.
Then again, perhaps NASA could put a hold on their space exploration programs to address this situation with the CC dice, since it is of such grave import.

i understand you did analysis on the dice file but this file is replaced at unknown intervals. did you analyze the new one? clustering is a statistical fact and streaks will exist. maybe not in the file you examined but maybe in another it exists a lot.

Then your problem is with random.org, and not CC. If you do not trust their random number generation methods, and believe they are providing bugged out batches, that is a problem you must address with them. You may want to prepare yourself before approaching them, as they have already passed these tests on their random number generation methods:
* Frequency Test: Monobit
* Frequency Test: Block
* Runs Test
* Test for the Longest Runs of Ones in a Block
* Binary Matrix Rank Test
* Discrete Fourier Transform (Spectral Test)
* Non-Overlapping Template Matching Test
* Overlapping Template Matching Test
* Maurer's Universal Statistical Test
* Linear Complexity Test
* Serial Test
* Approximate Entropy Test
* Cumulative Sums Test
* Random Excursions Test
* Random Excursions Variant Test
* A chi-square test
* A test of runs above and below the median
* A reverse arrangements test
* An overlapping sums test
* A binary rank test for 32Ɨ32 matrices

just like counting cards... youre not predicting the next card... youre predicting the probability of good cards.
why is it so unreasonable to just read from the dice file randomly? you can have a much smaller dice file... about 7K lines total.
why is it so unreasonable to generate random dice on-the-fly?
the current design lends itself to be exploitable. im just trying to help :)

Explain to me your theory on how it can be exploited, and I will put my account on the line by testing it out. You may assume that I am the one doing the exploiting, as I have access to the file itself. Tell me, how do I accurately predict how many users are going to click "attack" between my clicks of attack. I'll be very interested to hear this one. BTW, you may not use a TARDIS in your theory
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Re: New Dice Generator *Rejected*

Postby lancehoch on Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:59 pm

waynef100, I just want to also point out that the thread you dug up is over 2 1/2 years old. It is no longer relevant.
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Re: New Dice Generator *Rejected*

Postby waynef100 on Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:44 am

thanks for your answers. as long as the file isnt read sequentially and an auto attack with a large number does not get you a chunk of the file... then we have true randomness. thanks to those who helped and have the knowledge to answer the questions i was asking
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Re: New Dice Generator *Rejected*

Postby waynef100 on Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:00 pm

hecter wrote:Research done for you, stop complaining. I told you, just do a search and you'll get all your answers :roll:


there was never complaining just attempting to understand how the site is protected against on the surface seemed like an exploitable design. calm down
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Re: New Dice Generator *Rejected*

Postby troubadour64 on Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:34 am

Are you people serious ... there's nothing random about a generator of any kind not sure what you people understand about this but the primaitive one were playing on is exactly the up to date with other site's that use these ie: casino's oh and another thing people who complain about it are quite with in there right's to do so just as those who are happy with it.
So if want to get it right dont bother just enjoy the game for what it is and expect 3-4 double rolls against you and your CC because this site as much as i enjoy it and never complain on forums because i think there terrible for any product is so basic it's unbeliveable that all pay a premium to extend or loyalty. I have and i've had some good fun so far . So unless or founders are setting barriers in the IT industry and selling there generators to other company's which is highly unlikely since this web site probably fuels a smart individual i have only to go and play my best ....
Peace out.. Troubadour 64 =D>
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Re: New Dice Generator *Rejected*

Postby Timminz on Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:27 pm

troubadour64 wrote:Are you people serious ... there's nothing random about a generator of any kind not sure what you people understand about this but the primaitive one were playing on is exactly the up to date with other site's that use these ie: casino's oh and another thing people who complain about it are quite with in there right's to do so just as those who are happy with it.
So if want to get it right dont bother just enjoy the game for what it is and expect 3-4 double rolls against you and your CC because this site as much as i enjoy it and never complain on forums because i think there terrible for any product is so basic it's unbeliveable that all pay a premium to extend or loyalty. I have and i've had some good fun so far . So unless or founders are setting barriers in the IT industry and selling there generators to other company's which is highly unlikely since this web site probably fuels a smart individual i have only to go and play my best ....
Peace out.. Troubadour 64 =D>

So, are you for, or against, the dice? I have trouble reading stream-of-consciousness.
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Re: New Dice Generator *Rejected*

Postby troubadour64 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:03 am

troubadour64 wrote:Are you people serious ... there's nothing random about a generator of any kind not sure what you people understand about this but the primaitive one were playing on is exactly the up to date with other site's that use these ie: casino's oh and another thing people who complain about it are quite with in there right's to do so just as those who are happy with it.
So if want to get it right dont bother just enjoy the game for what it is and expect 3-4 double rolls against you and your CC because this site as much as i enjoy it and never complain on forums because i think there terrible for any product is so basic it's unbeliveable that all pay a premium to extend or loyalty. I have and i've had some good fun so far . So unless or founders are setting barriers in the IT industry and selling there generators to other company's which is highly unlikely since this web site probably fuels a smart individual i have only to go and play my best ....
Peace out.. Troubadour 64 =D>

for it!
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Unlucky or bug in the system ?

Postby Sun Su on Sat May 02, 2009 7:00 am

I played a gamed with loosing all my assaults... I won 2 troops in the whole game !!!!!... I lose a lot of games I should win but the dice seems to be only against me .. I'm starting to think there is a bug in your system it's impossible to have so much unluck.

<DELETE ME>
PLACE A CONCISE DESCRIPTION OF THE SUGGESTION OR BUG IN THE SUBJECT LINE!!!

The dice ARE random, lots and lots of analysis has been done on them both internally and by community members.

Search for previous suggestion or bug reports and check stickies before posting something "new".

Delete or replace any xxxxxxx with the appropriate information.
Delete any entires which do not apply.
</DELETE ME>

Concise description:
  • xxxxxxx

Specifics:
  • xxxxxxx

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
  • xxxxxxx (you can obviously delete this for bug reports)
  • xxxxxxx
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Re: Unlucky or bug in the system ?

Postby Selucid Empire on Sat May 02, 2009 7:33 am

(Were any of those attacks 3 vs 3?) I only ask because... well, once I had bad luck, I lost 11 men attacking 2 and that through me over the edge because I turned in a set to get those men and needed to break Africa early in the game. Needless to say my emotions got the better of me and I lost all interest in the game and so I just attacked and attacked, 3 vs 3 battles caused both defending dice to win time and time again and I think I only managed to kill 2 people with the rest of my attacks until I had all 1s.

... Were you attacking... "on tilt" as they say? Or did you have an established army and simply lose time and time again? How long was the game? etc... (Sorry, a gal's nothing if not curious :mrgreen: )
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Re: Unlucky or bug in the system ?

Postby cicero on Sat May 02, 2009 3:03 pm

Pretty certainly just unlucky I'm afraid.

Out of curiosity what was the game number ?
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Re: Unlucky or bug in the system ?

Postby Sun Su on Tue May 12, 2009 9:07 pm

Oh I forgot the game # there are so many... but yeah I had made myself forgotten and built a monster coloss army of 34 deadly worriors starving for blood... well at least that's what thought, didn't know they were armless midjit faggets .. yellow was gettin over the other dudes and I had to go in to settle things up .. 34 VS 3 = 3 on 1 .. yeah I pressed that auto-assault button more like the auto-kill than anything else .. lol it was my only country and my only assault in the game...

PS - that was in my periode were I lost like 10 games in a row .. and I do remember losing one like you did Selucid Empire
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CAn you null and void a game if the dice are just way wrong?

Postby Slaylark on Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:52 pm

2009-09-25 12:02:22 - Slaylark: gg, lost 11 won none, dice suck, i hate when game is determined soley by luck...
2009-09-25 13:11:39 - Slaylark: OMG that was 4 more in a row...
2009-09-25 13:12:07 - Slaylark: make that a total of 17 lost
2009-09-25 14:28:44 - Slaylark: your good luck and mine are just deplorable for a fair game...sigh
2009-09-25 14:29:52 - Slaylark: UNF^&%#$^%# believable, 6 more lost only 2 taken. wtf.
2009-09-25 14:47:12 - Slaylark: lol, wow..
2009-09-25 14:47:58 - Slaylark: LOLOLOLOLOL, LOST 6 more in a row, won none... i am reporting this game...


game #: 5648399 Arms race.. never seen luck this bad, is there something wrong with the dice program,, it is way wrong

should be a permittance to allow a null and void if dice are >80% lopsided....

Thank you...
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Re: CAn you null and void a game if the dice are just way wrong?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:54 pm

You will see dice much worse than that occassionaly, but a game will never be adjusted because of a bad roll...not the least of the reasons, as having it impossible to prove...

move on and have fun...
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Re: dice rolling [replaced]

Postby campbell555 on Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:56 am

I think the system yous have now sucks, and should be replaced ! I been screwed so many times by the way the dice is determined,that some times i want to stop playing conquer club, but i like it . If there is a way of pushing a button and letting the dice spin and than push the button again for the dice to stop, that would make rolling better ! This way u feel like your more in control. :idea:
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Re: dice rolling [replaced]

Postby frankiebee on Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:16 am

this is from 2006 ? :?
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Re: dice rolling [replaced]

Postby sinctheassasin on Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:54 am

campbell555 wrote:I think the system yous have now sucks, and should be replaced ! I been screwed so many times by the way the dice is determined,that some times i want to stop playing conquer club, but i like it . If there is a way of pushing a button and letting the dice spin and than push the button again for the dice to stop, that would make rolling better ! This way u feel like your more in control. :idea:



That would actually be a great idea. Like a slot machine. But what about auto assults? A certainly don't want to pull a lever 100+ times in city mogul...

Perhaps an option to pull the lever, and then let the randomizer take care of it if there are large numbers if troops?
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Re: dice rolling [replaced]

Postby AAFitz on Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:20 am

sinctheassasin wrote:
campbell555 wrote:I think the system yous have now sucks, and should be replaced ! I been screwed so many times by the way the dice is determined,that some times i want to stop playing conquer club, but i like it . If there is a way of pushing a button and letting the dice spin and than push the button again for the dice to stop, that would make rolling better ! This way u feel like your more in control. :idea:



That would actually be a great idea. Like a slot machine. But what about auto assults? A certainly don't want to pull a lever 100+ times in city mogul...

Perhaps an option to pull the lever, and then let the randomizer take care of it if there are large numbers if troops?


its not a great idea...its a fun idea, but its a bad one. Right now the dice are random. They are affected only by weather variations independently, and then delivered and used.

If a player could affect them, in even the smallest way, it would completely reduce randomness across the board for everyone.

The cubes would then be affected by computer speed, download speed, server speed, and everyone else's speeds. To some degree that is true now, but mostly indirectly. The game would become about clicking the dice at the right time, more than just playing with a random chance at rolls, which is how the game should be played.

There may very well be a way to make the dice perfectly random for each roll....but letting players choose them is certainly not the way to make it that way.
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Re: dice rolling [replaced]

Postby sinctheassasin on Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:11 am

AAFitz wrote:
sinctheassasin wrote:
campbell555 wrote:I think the system yous have now sucks, and should be replaced ! I been screwed so many times by the way the dice is determined,that some times i want to stop playing conquer club, but i like it . If there is a way of pushing a button and letting the dice spin and than push the button again for the dice to stop, that would make rolling better ! This way u feel like your more in control. :idea:



That would actually be a great idea. Like a slot machine. But what about auto assults? A certainly don't want to pull a lever 100+ times in city mogul...

Perhaps an option to pull the lever, and then let the randomizer take care of it if there are large numbers if troops?


its not a great idea...its a fun idea, but its a bad one. Right now the dice are random. They are affected only by weather variations independently, and then delivered and used.

If a player could affect them, in even the smallest way, it would completely reduce randomness across the board for everyone.

The cubes would then be affected by computer speed, download speed, server speed, and everyone else's speeds. To some degree that is true now, but mostly indirectly. The game would become about clicking the dice at the right time, more than just playing with a random chance at rolls, which is how the game should be played.

There may very well be a way to make the dice perfectly random for each roll....but letting players choose them is certainly not the way to make it that way.



are you saying a simple flash animation of dice randomizing themselves at speeds un-retainable by human eyes, and then clicking a stop button is "choosing"

thats like saying i can choose to get triple sevens on the slot machines. i would be rich! :lol:
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Re: dice rolling [replaced]

Postby jamesbond22 on Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:34 pm

had 203 troops they had 3
lost all mine opposition loses 2

f***ing computer I f***ing hate you

still love the game though
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New Dice Analyzer Needed

Postby Timur the Lame on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:38 pm

I would like to propose that the CC community make a new dice analyzer

The current one is obviously broken and needs to be fixed:
  • My 3v2 % (14.29% / 42.86% / 42.86%)
  • My 3v1 % (46.15% / 53.85%)

Solutions:
  • Change the Analyzer to produce BS stats so that I at least believe that I'm not getting such crappy roles
  • Provide an extra dice for me on the attack that way on a 4v1 my stats might at least look like this (50/50) instead of the (46.15% / 53.85%) that I have in 3v1s right now.
  • Have CC provide me lube so that I don't feel as raw from getting repeatedly raped.
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Re: New Dice Analyzer Needed

Postby donkeymile on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:55 pm

LOL - I am in complete agreement.

Most games lately (6-8 months) have been majority lopsided and unenjoyable to play. I have used the dice analyzer as well and it shows the same pattern ... the dice are NOT evening out for me.

They keep saying that you only remember the bad streaks and not the good ones .... well nothing could be further from the truth.

I'll get around to publishing my dice stats some day soon. Just to prove my point.
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Dice suggestion (for all those who may want to skip it!)

Postby Halmir on Sat May 15, 2010 8:44 am

"The dice ARE random, lots and lots of analysis has been done on them both internally and by community members." Excellent news there, in which case this suggestion may have some merit! As they are random, if I remember my Maths lessons this means that if you plot the distribution of numbers on a graph you'll get a sexy little bell-shaped curve. The big gripe people have on this site is the dice when you hit a bad run. Why you may even have heard someone as saintly as me comment on it on occasion :oops: :P I do however also comment on when the dice go amazingly well so I reckon that means I'm allowed!

Concise description:
  • My suggestion is to implement a new option for hosts to use either the normal dice (so nothing different), or a form of dice where the distribution is limited such that it cannot get too bad yet cannot get too good either. Each end of the graph is truncated.

Specifics:
  • How that is accomplished I really don't know :D but I'm sure you clever chaps can come up with some method. This is a suggestion to spark someone else into finishing it off.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
  • It keeps the attacks random but now not quite so variable
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Re: Dice suggestion (for all those who may want to skip it!)

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat May 15, 2010 9:30 am

You are expecting too much out of me
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Re: Dice suggestion (for all those who may want to skip it!)

Postby firsal901 on Sun May 16, 2010 2:50 am

lol
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