Foundry Process

[DiM]

here's the thread. waiting for Keyogi to move the posts here.

[Samus]

For those of you just clicking on this, this is a discussion from the South Africa map. It moved off into a tangent that is no longer about that map specifically, so it's been moved here. The preceding comments are here:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... &start=180

There's a lot of people that visit the Foundry and make helpful suggestions, but all these people are in different time zones and have very different commitments and interests. I think the Foundry works best when it's given time to work at its own pace, rather than have cartographers trying to rush maps through.

Well, I can sort of agree with KEYOGI, more time = more comments. It's not like we can ask people to quit their jobs to come here and comment. So far the solution a few map makers have been using is to do more than one map in parallel.

I don't really blame Andy, he's been busy outside of the Foundry and even if he wasn't, the Foundry has grown a lot in the last few months and there's only so much one person can do. The only thing I think he could be doing more about is better directing traffic to the maps that warrant it (i.e., marking more maps "Final Forge"). But he says there's something in the works to make the Foundry process run smoother, so until then I think he deserves a chance to do what he thinks will work best.

I'm not a big fan of keeping things secret until they're done, I think that's missing out on some potentially helpful suggestions. I think there's a pretty good chance you'll end up saying "yeah, that would have been a really good idea" at some point, but we'll see.

[DiM]

For those of you just clicking on this, this is a discussion from the South Africa map. It moved off into a tangent that is no longer about that map specifically, so it's been moved here. The preceding comments are here:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... &start=180

There's a lot of people that visit the Foundry and make helpful suggestions, but all these people are in different time zones and have very different commitments and interests. I think the Foundry works best when it's given time to work at its own pace, rather than have cartographers trying to rush maps through.

Well, I can sort of agree with KEYOGI, more time = more comments. It's not like we can ask people to quit their jobs to come here and comment. So far the solution a few map makers have been using is to do more than one map in parallel.

I don't really blame Andy, he's been busy outside of the Foundry and even if he wasn't, the Foundry has grown a lot in the last few months and there's only so much one person can do. The only thing I think he could be doing more about is better directing traffic to the maps that warrant it (i.e., marking more maps "Final Forge"). But he says there's something in the works to make the Foundry process run smoother, so until then I think he deserves a chance to do what he thinks will work best.

I'm not a big fan of keeping things secret until they're done, I think that's missing out on some potentially helpful suggestions. I think there's a pretty good chance you'll end up saying "yeah, that would have been a really good idea" at some point, but we'll see.

i agree more time=more comments but some maps reach a point when feedback is no longer about major issues but about minor things. i think when a map reaches the minor details stage it means it is in the final forge stage. i mean thet's what the final forge is about dealing with the little details and making it ready for quenching.

in my opinion mibi's map has passed the stage when it had major issues, the gfx is almost done, the gameplay is 99% finished and yet no final forge? why? because it's only a month old?

[Contrickster]

There is a "bugsies turn" issue here whereby one may be reluctant to fasttrack particular maps so to treat all map-makers equal. Equal here being measured in time, number of page views, comments, pages etc.

Obviously not all maps are equally cool and map-makers equally skilled, and/or equally endowed in time and willingness to work to improve the map with the Foundary. So some maps should get more attention directed to it. I think with the upcoming changes some of these issues will be addressed.

[Teya]

I see no problem with the foundry process. It hasn't been a problem for the last year, I dont see why people have issues with it now.
It seems to me that it is mainly the newer map makers that have issues with it. Which to me says they dont understand the foundry properly.

As for feedback slowing down, I think its more to do with the fact that the regular people in specific threads are happy. I personally wont go into your thread DiM. Its too overwelming with the constant updates. I think constant updates can just cause maps to go backwards and forwards. Not actually going anywhere.
And the siege map, there is no small map, so the way I see it the map isnt as close to final forge as people keep saying. Yes, all the major issues of the LARGE map have been sorted. Not the small map. We should at least see the small version before forging.

[Ruben Cassar]

i agree more time=more comments but some maps reach a point when feedback is no longer about major issues but about minor things. i think when a map reaches the minor details stage it means it is in the final forge stage. i mean thet's what the final forge is about dealing with the little details and making it ready for quenching.

in my opinion mibi's map has passed the stage when it had major issues, the gfx is almost done, the gameplay is 99% finished and yet no final forge? why? because it's only a month old?

Well my map for example has been in the making since December and it never ever reached final forge status even though I think it deserves at least that. I know there are still some issues with it which I intend to look at in the future but I was told back then that final forge is just a name and that a map can get quenched even if it does not get that status once these issues are resolved.

Other maps that started development with mine reached final forge but mine never did and I had to live with it. Personally I think it never got final forge status because I asked why it had not reached that status yet and Andy does not like that so I am assuming he kept my map out of final forge status for that reason. Mibi as far as I know has done the same thing (asking when his map will be final forged) so I think things are working pretty coherently in the foundry process at least.

[DiM]

I see no problem with the foundry process. It hasn't been a problem for the last year, I dont see why people have issues with it now.
It seems to me that it is mainly the newer map makers that have issues with it. Which to me says they dont understand the foundry properly.

As for feedback slowing down, I think its more to do with the fact that the regular people in specific threads are happy. I personally wont go into your thread DiM. Its too overwelming with the constant updates. I think constant updates can just cause maps to go backwards and forwards. Not actually going anywhere.
And the siege map, there is no small map, so the way I see it the map isnt as close to final forge as people keep saying. Yes, all the major issues of the LARGE map have been sorted. Not the small map. We should at least see the small version before forging.

the world is moving fast and if you don't adapt you die. this is also valid for the foundry. maybe a year or a few months ago the fundry process was ok, but many more cartographers appeared, many more maps have been started and the quality level has risen. and yet the foundry process has not evolved that much and in my opinion something needs to be done.

regarding my map. i like to work on it and that's why i update it so often. if too many updates overwhelm you then it's your choice to not post there and i can't do anything about it. i'll still update it as often as i can.

regarding the siege map. there's no point in making the small version until the large is finished. i'm sure that if keyogi or andy would come and ask for thesmall version in order to put the map in final forge mibi would do it.

[DiM]

i agree more time=more comments but some maps reach a point when feedback is no longer about major issues but about minor things. i think when a map reaches the minor details stage it means it is in the final forge stage. i mean thet's what the final forge is about dealing with the little details and making it ready for quenching.

in my opinion mibi's map has passed the stage when it had major issues, the gfx is almost done, the gameplay is 99% finished and yet no final forge? why? because it's only a month old?

Well my map for example has been in the making since December and it never ever reached final forge status even though I think it deserves at least that. I know there are still some issues with it which I intend to look at in the future but I was told back then that final forge is just a name and that a map can get quenched even if it does not get that status once these issues are resolved.

Other maps that started development with mine reached final forge but mine never did and I had to live with it. Personally I think it never got final forge status because I asked why it had not reached that status yet and Andy does not like that so I am assuming he kept my map out of final forge status for that reason. Mibi as far as I know has done the same thing (asking when his map will be final forged) so I think things are working pretty coherently in the foundry process at least.

i don't think the reason is because you asked for final forge. i'd hate to think andy would do such a bad thing. why not personally ask andy why he's not putting it in final forge. he'll give you some valid reasons i don't doubt it.

[oaktown]

There is a "bugsies turn" issue here whereby one may be reluctant to fasttrack particular maps so to treat all map-makers equal. Equal here being measured in time, number of page views, comments, pages etc.

Actually, there's a lot to be said or the numbers of views and comments a map has. It is a good judge of how much interest there is in the map, and I'd say a map should generate a lot of views and feedback before it is forged.

Let's look at the South Africa map and the Siege map... both were started at the same time (March 15 and March 16), yet Siege has over twice as many comments (394) and views (6500+) than South Africa. What that tells me is that Siege is generating twice as much interest as South Africa, and if you look at how much that map has progressed since the original post the impact of all of that feedback really shows. It could of course be argued that Siege needed more help in the first place - but the idea had so many fans it progressed anyway.

Is the South Africa map ready for final forge? I don't know. I look at the map and I think something is a bit off - the heavy borders or the weird landlocked country thing. But more importantly, I don't care for it enough to spend any time trying to make it better - but that's just me. I don't think Crowley should or will take that comment personally, because I've been through the process and I KNOW that a lot of people didn't - and still don't - care for my map. So be it.

The maps that have been quenched lately have each had over 10,000 views. I'm not saying there should be a minimum, but it tells you something when a map had been scrutinized that closely before it is deemed ready for play.

So if you care about the South Africa map, keep working on it - it's good and still getting better.

[DiM]

There is a "bugsies turn" issue here whereby one may be reluctant to fasttrack particular maps so to treat all map-makers equal. Equal here being measured in time, number of page views, comments, pages etc.

Actually, there's a lot to be said or the numbers of views and comments a map has. It is a good judge of how much interest there is in the map, and I'd say a map should generate a lot of views and feedback before it is forged.

Let's look at the South Africa map and the Siege map... both were started at the same time (March 15 and March 16), yet Siege has over twice as many comments (394) and views (6500+) than South Africa. What that tells me is that Siege is generating twice as much interest as South Africa, and if you look at how much that map has progressed since the original post the impact of all of that feedback really shows. It could of course be argued that Siege needed more help in the first place - but the idea had so many fans it progressed anyway.

Is the South Africa map ready for final forge? I don't know. I look at the map and I think something is a bit off - the heavy borders or the weird landlocked country thing. But more importantly, I don't care for it enough to spend any time trying to make it better - but that's just me. I don't think Crowley should or will take that comment personally, because I've been through the process and I KNOW that a lot of people didn't - and still don't - care for my map. So be it.

The maps that have been quenched lately have each had over 10,000 views. I'm not saying there should be a minimum, but it tells you something when a map had been scrutinized that closely before it is deemed ready for play.

So if you care about the South Africa map, keep working on it - it's good and still getting better.

actually number of posts and of views doesn't mean anything. if it did then siege map should be quenched because KOTM was quenched at post 387.
i'm not even talking about qwert's eastern front map. that one has 25k views and well over 1000 replys.
i've already asked this in another thread.

what happens if somebody posts a perfect map. and i do mean perfect. a map which has no flaws and nobody can come up with any improvement. will it be quenched in the next few days or will it simply have to wait 2-3 months until it gathers 10k views?

let's say mibi did a lot of work in private and instead of posting his first rough draft he posted a much better version just like the one he has now. would the thread still gather 400 replys? deffinitely not? but would that make the map be worse? nope. the map would still be just as good.

[WidowMakers]

what happens if somebody posts a perfect map. and i do mean perfect. a map which has no flaws and nobody can come up with any improvement. will it be quenched in the next few days or will it simply have to wait 2-3 months until it gathers 10k views?

let's say mibi did a lot of work in private and instead of posting his first rough draft he posted a much better version just like the one he has now. would the thread still gather 400 replys? deffinitely not? but would that make the map be worse? nope. the map would still be just as good.

I agree with DiM. I spend a lot of time up front with my maps before I post them. I think about the layout, naming, game play, colors, and bonuses. Yes there are fixes and everyone adds their comments. However, it really helps when the map makers spend time refining his idea before he posts it for the world. Plus a more refined idea in the initial post allows the public to really see the intentions of the map.

And I also agree that the number of posts/views should not determine the quality of a map or its eligibility for forging.

[DiM]

hey if i want posts and views i can simply start a draft consisting of one pixel. and ask where to put the next.
pretty soon i'll have like a million posts before i get a decent looking map.

[KEYOGI]

in my opinion mibi's map has passed the stage when it had major issues, the gfx is almost done, the gameplay is 99% finished and yet no final forge? why? because it's only a month old?

When I have the time to go over the Siege map in detail I will. Andy will likely do the same before any decision about Final Forge is made. It not being in Final Forge has nothing to do with how old the map is, that wasn't my point. There has still been a lot of discussion in the Siege thread recently and the last update was yesterday. Just give it some time.

Well my map for example has been in the making since December and it never ever reached final forge status even though I think it deserves at least that. I know there are still some issues with it which I intend to look at in the future but I was told back then that final forge is just a name and that a map can get quenched even if it does not get that status once these issues are resolved.

From memory there were still a few visual elements that needed cleaning up, which you said you were working on. I guess we're all still waiting for that next update.

the world is moving fast and if you don't adapt you die. this is also valid for the foundry. maybe a year or a few months ago the fundry process was ok, but many more cartographers appeared, many more maps have been started and the quality level has risen. and yet the foundry process has not evolved that much and in my opinion something needs to be done.

Just because the number of cartographers has increased doesn't mean the quality has.

Did you miss the announcement about me becoming C.A.? The Foundry is evolving, just give it time to sort itself out, I've been C.A. for less than a week.

[DiM]

the world is moving fast and if you don't adapt you die. this is also valid for the foundry. maybe a year or a few months ago the fundry process was ok, but many more cartographers appeared, many more maps have been started and the quality level has risen. and yet the foundry process has not evolved that much and in my opinion something needs to be done.

Just because the number of cartographers has increased doesn't mean the quality has.

Did you miss the announcement about me becoming C.A.? The Foundry is evolving, just give it time to sort itself out, I've been C.A. for less than a week.

actually i think the quality has benn kept at least at the same level.

and no i haven't missed your appointment as CA. in fact i was the fifth to congratulate you:

well done. i think it's great. i've always considered we need some more organization in the foundry. hopefully things will move a lot faster now and will be more organized.
congrats again.

PS: i'd also like to suggest adding WM and guiscard to the team.

note that i stated then i hope for a faster foundry and i also suggested adding WM and Guiscard to the team to further improve speed and organization.

[WidowMakers]

Did you miss the announcement about me becoming C.A.? The Foundry is evolving, just give it time to sort itself out, I've been C.A. for less than a week.

A WHOLE WEEK. Man you should have solved all of the problems by now. Hurry up and get to it.

I can only speak for the time I have been around but the process has been working well. I don't know about the early days (last year) but there probably were not as many map makers because there were not as many players.

A suggestion I would make to the foundry process is changing the development process a bit. Idea/Gameplay shoul dbe the first thing that gwets approved. General layout (# of territories/borders/bonus) shoul dbe the first to go. Once everyone agrees that the map will play well and has appeal THEN on to the graphics. I hate it when a map is posted and the second post is get Photoshop and learn how to draw. Good looking maps are not good maps. They are good looking. Make a bad looking good playing map and then spend some time making it look good. That is the easy part.

So I guess my suggestion is adding a layer in the development process. We have Final Forge and Quenched. I suggest we add stages to reflect the process.

Idea = Preparing the map for development. Nothing is final. This stage is used to get the playability of the map in the correct form before going onto graphics/XML. Every map starts here.
Heating (new stage) = All aspects of game play have been established. Territories, bonus, borders, etc. Now people provide input for the graphical aspects.
Final Forge (new definition)=All aspects of game play have been approved/ Graphics/XML are almost done
Quenched = All aspects of game play/Graphics/XML have been approved

[KEYOGI]

and no i haven't missed your appointment as CA. in fact i was the fifth to congratulate you...

...note that i stated then i hope for a faster foundry and i also suggested adding WM and Guiscard to the team to further improve speed and organization.

Yes I know you saw the announcement DiM, thanks for the nice comments. I was being sarcastic however. Dammit, if only I'd put a on the end.

A suggestion I would make to the foundry process is changing the development process a bit. Idea/Gameplay shoul dbe the first thing that gwets approved. General layout (# of territories/borders/bonus) shoul dbe the first to go. Once everyone agrees that the map will play well and has appeal THEN on to the graphics. I hate it when a map is posted and the second post is get Photoshop and learn how to draw. Good looking maps are not good maps. They are good looking. Make a bad looking good playing map and then spend some time making it look good. That is the easy part.

So I guess my suggestion is adding a layer in the development process. We have Final Forge and Quenched. I suggest we add stages to reflect the process.

Things are in motion as Andy keeps mentioning. Now everybody just be patient!

[DiM]

hey this thread already has 17 posts and 121 views in only 2.5 hours. at this rate it will be quenched in a week. sweet a new record

and about the new improvements, can we get a few hints? a sneak preview?

[mibi]

DiM speaks the truth.

I haven't been around for very long, and from my limited experience it seems from some of the older and other threads that getting quenched or into the forge is a long process, sometimes taking months, often due to the inability of the mapmaker or less than frequent updates.

however, it seems that recently, map makers are stepping up to the plate with some nice maps and vary frequent updates. yet i sense there is some throttling going on. cooling of the jets so to speak. perhaps its the this-is-how-its-always-been-done mentality.

someone like me, a freelance graphic designer who works from home, can work all day and night on map and update the hell out it. then to be held up in some lumbering foundry 'process' would be quite frustrating. Im not saying this is whats happening, but if it were, it would not be good for CC.

what am i saying? i dunno, i cede all comments to DiM. maybe yogi and andy need to take the foundry into the 21st century.

[KEYOGI]

someone like me, a freelance graphic designer who works from home, can work all day and night on map and update the hell out it. then to be held up in some lumbering foundry 'process' would be quite frustrating. Im not saying this is whats happening, but if it were, it would not be good for CC.

Yes, but I don't have all day and night to study maps and comment on them, neither does Andy.

[Samus]

I think it's rather ironic that the entire map making process here in the Foundry is entirely based around input from the community, yet the change to the map making process is being kept secret, with absolutely no input from the community. How would you feel if a map maker disregarded everyone's comments and just said "I've been making maps well so far, changes on the map are in motion, now just be patient."

I don't know what the change is, but I am certain that someone here has at least one idea for how the change could be better. But I guess we can do the hindsight thing instead.

[mibi]

someone like me, a freelance graphic designer who works from home, can work all day and night on map and update the hell out it. then to be held up in some lumbering foundry 'process' would be quite frustrating. Im not saying this is whats happening, but if it were, it would not be good for CC.

Yes, but I don't have all day and night to study maps and comment on them, neither does Andy.

welll you know what that means.... more mods!

[KEYOGI]

I don't know what the change is, but I am certain that someone here has at least one idea for how the change could be better. But I guess we can do the hindsight thing instead.

foundry suggestion - final forge process

The 'Sub-Forum' issue will be worked on and resolved, as we are looking into using many such 'sub-forums' phpBB mods.

welll you know what that means.... more mods!

How about we give it a month rather than 5 days to measure the impact of a C.A. on the Foundry.

[Coleman]

someone like me, a freelance graphic designer who works from home, can work all day and night on map and update the hell out it. then to be held up in some lumbering foundry 'process' would be quite frustrating. Im not saying this is whats happening, but if it were, it would not be good for CC.

Yes, but I don't have all day and night to study maps and comment on them, neither does Andy.

welll you know what that means.... more mods!

Another issue with the Seige map in particular that may be keeping it from final forge is that none of the xml is done yet. mibi has requested/given me permission to do his xml for that map and I am starting (maybe even finishing) it tonight and will be regularly updating it with any future changes to the map.

Unrelated: I was wondering if we could have a pinned topic called "Who's who in the foundry." where members can list important (or even not so important) people in the foundry and what they typically do with and for maps.

[oaktown]

I think it's rather ironic that the entire map making process here in the Foundry is entirely based around input from the community, yet the change to the map making process is being kept secret, with absolutely no input from the community.

It doesn't have to happen overnight, does it? There have been several discussions about naming cartography assistants (like the one i started last month), and i'm glad to see it is starting to happen. Likewise, this thread can be used for constructive suggestions rather than bitching, and maybe some of those suggestions will happen.

actually number of posts and of views doesn't mean anything. if it did then siege map should be quenched because KOTM was quenched at post 387.

I totally agree DiM, but you missed my point. I was trying to make the point that views and comments are a valuable piece of information to judge the LEVEL OF INTEREST in a map, and that a greater level of interest would push a map to a final state faster.

In the case of the KOTM map, it began in good shape. Siege did not, but there has been so much interest and feedback on that map that it has come a long way in a short time. In my opinion South Africa hasn't made as much progress - in part because it started pretty good, but also in part because people are less interested in quenching and playing that particular map. Shouldn't this indicate to the cartographer that something about the map lacks appeal?

And DiM, if you can start with a single pixel and get a million posts from people who love the work you're doing on that pixel, I'll pay for your next premium membership! Meanwhile, if mibi started with a perfect map that was universally hailed as perfect, I suspect it wouldn't take long to quench. Go for it, mibi!

I don't think it's a bad process we have here, it's just not a clear one. Clear guidelines for what makes a map ready for final forge and quenching would bring an end to these monthly debates.

[mibi]

I don't think it's a bad process we have here, it's just not a clear one. Clear guidelines for what makes a map ready for final forge and quenching would bring an end to these monthly debates.

listen to oaktown.