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Jamaica map - retirement

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Jamaica map - retirement

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:35 am

Posters in this thread have clarified that CC's only two options are to keep the map exactly as is or remove it, so for the reasons stated in my suggestion below I am now proposing this map be retired.

Concise description:
  • Change name of the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Era Jamaica'

Specifics/Details:
  • As above

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • As per this thread, CC is pretty unanimous in agreeing that the name should change
  • Whole range of reasons as to why the current name is no longer considered appropriate
  • Very minor change that should only take a second to make
  • Would help make CC feel more inclusive
Last edited by mrswdk on Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:41 am

Are you just suggesting a name change in the CC database, or an actual change to the map artwork? CC does not have access to the files used to create the map image. Those are retained by the map creator. So if a change to the map, itself, is desired, the proper approach would be to contact the artist and ask if he is willing to update the map artwork. The map is already pretty busy, and I suspect an update to the name in the artwork will require other things to shift around.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:56 am

Both. Could always make the on-map name a smaller text size to ensure it fits in?

CC owns the legal rights to the map. Surely that means it also has a copy of the files used to create the map?
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:24 am

mrswdk wrote:Both. Could always make the on-map name a smaller text size to ensure it fits in?

CC owns the legal rights to the map. Surely that means it also has a copy of the files used to create the map?


See the copyright agreement for maps:
viewtopic.php?f=649&t=150681&p=3292831#p3292832
The author retains copyright on their work, and gives Conquer Club permission to use the imagery free of charge, for as long as Conquer Club sees fit on the Conquer Club website. Conquer Club cannot sell, lease, or lend the right to use the images to anyone else. The author swears that their map is their own work, or a legal derivative work and by submitting it, do hereby claim all responsibility for that being true.


Conquer Club has the right to use the map image on the site in perpetuity. Conquer Club does not take ownership of the map though. So the artist may actually take their own map files to another site if they desire. Conquer Club may not transfer the map to anyone else though. In the mapmaking process, if someone starts working on a map concept and then abandons it, someone else may take up the concept, but they are required to create their own original files from scratch. Conquer Club does not have the original art files (GIMP, Photoshop, or whatever else). Conquer Club only has the final image file that can't be meaningfully edited.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:27 am

Just to add, traditionally, requests to correct or update maps for any reason are usually directed to the map foundry.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:46 am

Doc_Brown wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Both. Could always make the on-map name a smaller text size to ensure it fits in?

CC owns the legal rights to the map. Surely that means it also has a copy of the files used to create the map?


See the copyright agreement for maps:
viewtopic.php?f=649&t=150681&p=3292831#p3292832
The author retains copyright on their work, and gives Conquer Club permission to use the imagery free of charge, for as long as Conquer Club sees fit on the Conquer Club website. Conquer Club cannot sell, lease, or lend the right to use the images to anyone else. The author swears that their map is their own work, or a legal derivative work and by submitting it, do hereby claim all responsibility for that being true.


Conquer Club has the right to use the map image on the site in perpetuity. Conquer Club does not take ownership of the map though. So the artist may actually take their own map files to another site if they desire. Conquer Club may not transfer the map to anyone else though. In the mapmaking process, if someone starts working on a map concept and then abandons it, someone else may take up the concept, but they are required to create their own original files from scratch. Conquer Club does not have the original art files (GIMP, Photoshop, or whatever else). Conquer Club only has the final image file that can't be meaningfully edited.


Oh, in the thread I referenced in my OP a mod said that CC gets legal ownership of any maps created. Apparently the mod was wrong and CC is dumb enough to not own any of its own catalogue.

I would've posted this in Foundry but the map thread relating to Jamaica appears to have completely vanished (or at least, I couldn't see it in any of the Foundry's subforums). Couldn't see anywhere appropriate to post this other than Suggestions.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:02 am

The Jamaica map thread is here:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=75919

I believe CC intentionally set up the IP rights to maps this way to encourage development of high quality maps. By allowing the mapmakers to retain rights to their own work, it's easier to ask for a higher quality product without offering direct financial incentives. It also allows CC to more easily sidestep any unrealized copyright infringement issues. The mapmakers are simply giving CC rights to use their own product and are ensuring CC that the IP belongs completely to the mapmaker and is not infringing on any existing work (or that the mapmaker has explicit permission to use said existing works).
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby riskllama on Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:07 am

did anybody try getting in touch w/the mapmaker yet?
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby mrswdk on Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:56 am

PMd him.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby .SCuD. on Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:06 am

*sigh* reporting this thread too.

Once again, much of this was already discussed in a previous thread which had to be locked by Dukasaur. To then go and reopen TWO more posts in different forums is an unacceptable way of trying to subvert the decision made by the moderation team.

We should be thankful that our moderation team are here, as it allows all of us to continue to enjoy the game and forums. We should NOT be trying to make their lives harder by trying to subvert their decisions.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby cairnswk on Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:36 am

In one of my very rare replies, the name of the map was decided in the map creating process of the foundry

Several years back I lost the original layered creations due to computer failure on a backup drive.
:cry:
Now I have no desire to work on these as I have serious liver disease as well as cancer in my large colon both of which are inoperable.

I am sorry if this disappoints, but that is my decision.

That doesn't stop anyone else creating another map of Jamaica and calling it by some other title...all with the approval of the current foundry team and site owners. :)

Please don't reply to this as I will not answer debate.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:12 am

.SCuD. wrote:*sigh* reporting this thread too.

Once again, much of this was already discussed in a previous thread which had to be locked by Dukasaur. To then go and reopen TWO more posts in different forums is an unacceptable way of trying to subvert the decision made by the moderation team.

Actually, I think this thread is valid. The original thread was locked not because of its original aim, but because it had gotten filled up with personal attacks irrelevant to the discussion. As long as this one stays clear of personal attacks on anyone. It's not necessarily wrong to make a fresh start. It's just important to avoid the mistakes one made before.

Going to leave this open as long as there's no nastiness.

mrswdk wrote:[*]Very minor change that should only take a second to make

Unfortunately, no it isn't. The map name isn't superimposed on the graphic file; it's part of the graphic file. Making the change easily requires access to the original layered files. In many cases they don't exist any more. Editing the final .png file seamlessly would be a tricky business.

cairnswk wrote:Now I have no desire to work on these as I have serious liver disease as well as cancer in my large colon both of which are inoperable.

That is horrific news. :cry: I'm so very sorry. Take care of yourself, cairns.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby .SCuD. on Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:01 am

Dukasaur wrote:Going to leave this open as long as there's no nastiness.


Fair enough, your choice :)

In response to the actual point of the thread....

"Jamaica - Colonial Era" would be better, as many people don't check forums and it would avoid confusion with people thinking they had lost their map
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby riskllama on Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:32 am

cairnswk wrote:In one of my very rare replies, the name of the map was decided in the map creating process of the foundry

Several years back I lost the original layered creations due to computer failure on a backup drive.
:cry:
Now I have no desire to work on these as I have serious liver disease as well as cancer in my large colon both of which are inoperable.

I am sorry if this disappoints, but that is my decision.

That doesn't stop anyone else creating another map of Jamaica and calling it by some other title...all with the approval of the current foundry team and site owners. :)

Please don't reply to this as I will not answer debate.


ouch man, that's rough! thank you for all your time & efforts spent creating a large chunk of the maps available for play here @ CC - i am confident that your contribution to this site will never be forgotten for as long as this place lumbers on.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby badrandall on Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:25 pm

Hi All,

I am the original poster. After no one replied for the first bunch of days, I assumed the matter was being ignored. I was quite surprised to come back and see so much discussion.

A few comments:

(1) I appreciate the people who have brought insight to this matter be it with regards to community inclusivity, the nature of the site, copyright issues and otherwise.

(2) My biggest concern continues to be the message the map sends. Yes conquer club is premised on war but the warring is abstract. Is it really necessary to have us collect slaves on conquer club considering the degrading, violent history of slavery? Does the conquer club community want to impose that burden on those that have been impacted by slavery? To me these are the key questions to be answered.

(3) I first proposed changing the map unaware of the copyright issues. If it's not proper to change the map, I would say retire it.

Happy CC'ing,

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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby riskllama on Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:58 pm

badrandall wrote:Hi All,

If it's not proper to change the map, I would say retire it.


BadRandall


strongly disagree.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby Nut Shot Scott on Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:17 pm

riskllama wrote:
badrandall wrote:Hi All,

If it's not proper to change the map, I would say retire it.


BadRandall


strongly disagree.


Not my favorite map but that seems silly. Wouldn't it be simpler for the dozen or so incredibly woke people to just not play the map in question?
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby .SCuD. on Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:00 am

badrandall wrote:Hi All,

I am the original poster. After no one replied for the first bunch of days, I assumed the matter was being ignored. I was quite surprised to come back and see so much discussion.

A few comments:

(1) I appreciate the people who have brought insight to this matter be it with regards to community inclusivity, the nature of the site, copyright issues and otherwise.

(2) My biggest concern continues to be the message the map sends. Yes conquer club is premised on war but the warring is abstract. Is it really necessary to have us collect slaves on conquer club considering the degrading, violent history of slavery? Does the conquer club community want to impose that burden on those that have been impacted by slavery? To me these are the key questions to be answered.

(3) I first proposed changing the map unaware of the copyright issues. If it's not proper to change the map, I would say retire it.

Happy CC'ing,

BadRandall


Even if we were able to remove the slaves from that map... is it not true that another equally "woke" person would come along and say "why aren't you depicting the slaves that were also treated as commodities... why are you trying to hide your history!!!" Yes it sounds ridiculous, and it 100% would happen.

As a secondary question, I ask why you have only picked Jamaica as the map you would like retired? There are many other maps you could equally find offense with. Do you feel comfortable receiving big bonuses for owning the Nazi Panzer tanks in WWII Ardennes, for example? I think this is just something that is personal to you, but actually isn't offensive in nature.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby mrswdk on Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:53 pm

So in summary:

- People make maps, CC lets them retain legal ownership of the map and doesn't even get the original image files off them
- CC is therefore totally incapable of changing the Jamaica map at all in response to the vast majority of CC membership who expressed an opinion supporting a change

Looks like the only option left is to retire the map then.

Doc_Brown wrote:Just to add, traditionally, requests to correct or update maps for any reason are usually directed to the map foundry.


After you suggested this I posted in the map foundry thread, but in response Razorvich moved my post to Conquer Club discussion then banned me for 72 hours for posting this in there. So apparently map updates are no longer an acceptable topic of discussion in the map foundry.
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Re: Jamaica map - retirement

Postby riskllama on Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:22 pm

"vast majority"? it was like 3 people, including you - and you don't really count... :?
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Re: Jamaica map - retirement

Postby mrswdk on Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:40 am

Pretty much everyone in that thread agreed, as set out in Duk's summary of the thread when he locked it.
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Re: Jamaica map - retirement

Postby riskllama on Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:18 am

so, "pretty much everyone" = 3 people. let it go, mrs... :roll:
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Re: Jamaica map - retirement

Postby mrswdk on Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:33 am

Think you're well aware that way more than 3 people posted in that thread supporting changes to the map.
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Re: Jamaica map - retirement

Postby riskllama on Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:58 am

go tally up the votes & report back here w/your findings, then.
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Re: Jamaica map name change

Postby Shannon Apple on Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:06 pm

I would love to ask someone who is actually from Jamaica how they feel about this conversation and whether they would see the map removed. Sure, from one angle, I might look at the use of slaves as commodities as being insensitive. From another point of view, I might look at it as being the reality of history. It is not right to gloss over or hide what imperialistic English people did in the past. I have played this map in the past and thought "gosh, people were bastards in those times." I didn't really think about it in any other way.

Changing the maps listing should be enough to make it clear that this map is depicting what life was like in the 17th century for the people of Jamaica. Adding a date to the map's listing. "Jamaica 1660," or as someone suggested "Colonial Jamaica" should be sufficient.

People have recently been tearing down statues of bastards and I've maintained that these statues shouldn't be destroyed. They should be moved from "pride of place" settings to a museum where people can still CHOOSE to look upon their faces and know who these people were and what they have done. We need to add faces to names in order to make it real, to prevent future generations from doing similar things. History should never be hidden because some white people find it uncomfortable.


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Sorry to hear that you haven't been well Cairns
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