Conquer Club

Metsfanmax wrote:If you question the order to launch that missile, are you not questioning your very purpose in your position?

I understand your point, but I don't think that is necessarily true. Your purpose for being in the position should be the defense of your nation. If you don't believe that the order accomplishes or helps to accomplish that, then doubt seems reasonable.

Based on your experience, what is sufficient grounds for countermanding or disobeying an order given by a superior?

Metsfanmax wrote:Based on your experience, what is sufficient grounds for countermanding or disobeying an order given by a superior?

Being DAMN sure you're doing the right thing. Sure enough that you're willing to forfeit your life in that belief, even with "not all of the information". Because that's what is on the line, from a personal perspective. In other words, it's exceptionally rare but it happens.

Aren't people in the US Army (or any army for that matter) taught to follow orders?
If your whole training drilled you into going in fighting/action mode the instant that authenticated message comes in, do you think that when the order actually comes, you can doubt the authenticator himself?

I think the question you ask is a very interesting one, but the situation you create around it is not very accurate for it.

Got fastposted by you Woodruff, giving my assumption (that when the order comes in, you make sure you do the actions that follow from it) a little experienced support

karelpietertje wrote:Aren't people in the US Army (or any army for that matter) taught to follow orders?
If your whole training drilled you into going in fighting/action mode the instant that authenticated message comes in, do you think that when the order actually comes, you can doubt the authenticator himself?
I think the question you ask is a very interesting one, but the situation you create around it is not very accurate for it.

In battlefield conditions, you are absolutely right. That's because you can't take time to think about anything, because if you do a bullet is going through you or your crewmate. But in this scenario, while time is obviously still critical, it is a bit different in that regard.

Symmetry wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

targetman377 wrote:I would do it! not even a question.

... I used to have the same way of thinking... when I liked the President.

... Funny how that works. Just being honest.

That's completely fair and honest, and comes to the heart of the question. Do you have moral responsibility for launching that missile? Or are you just following orders? What if the President was somehow incapacitated, or you doubted his ability to make a sound judgement? What if you doubted that the order really came from the President?

It comes down to you, the switch, and the death of millions.

You can only assume that a launch order was a valid command upon verification of it and if you have no information contradicting the validity of the order all you can really do is believe that it was ordered in response to an attack. So yes. Key would be inserted and turned.

BTW. Reagan was a great American, a great patriot and a great president.

targetman377 wrote:

The Bison King wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

Haggis_McMutton wrote:

The Bison King wrote:I would have never taken the job in the first place.

This.

But assuming there's a dimensional rift and I suddenly find myself in that situation, no I wouldn't do it.

I wasn't sure how to reply to Bison- I don't know if he means joining the army generally, or becoming someone in charge of launching a missile. I have no idea how the process even works once you've joined.

I would never join the army, period. Also, army aside, I do the best in my life to avoid situations where I am a tool of a greater power (it's kind of hard to do in todays society). I feel most comfortable in situations where I have power over my own decisions. I'll leave dogmatic key turning to dogmatic people. There's more than enough people who are willing to surrender their lives to the US government, so thankfully I don't have to be one of them.

Then you truly have no respect for the country that you call home! (sometimes in defense of your country and you fellow citizens you must set aside your personal beliefs.!)

You have you're beliefs and I have mine. I have a lot of respect for a lot of things I'm not willing to die for, but I think the the person who makes the decision should bear the burden of flipping the switch.

I'd flip the switch in a heartbeat if I got to wear this cool uniform:

karelpietertje wrote:Aren't people in the US Army (or any army for that matter) taught to follow orders?
If your whole training drilled you into going in fighting/action mode the instant that authenticated message comes in, do you think that when the order actually comes, you can doubt the authenticator himself?

I think the question you ask is a very interesting one, but the situation you create around it is not very accurate for it.

What do you think is inaccurate? "Accurate" seems a strange choice of words. It might help you understand my position if you read the article in the OP.

jefjef wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

targetman377 wrote:I would do it! not even a question.

... I used to have the same way of thinking... when I liked the President.

... Funny how that works. Just being honest.

That's completely fair and honest, and comes to the heart of the question. Do you have moral responsibility for launching that missile? Or are you just following orders? What if the President was somehow incapacitated, or you doubted his ability to make a sound judgement? What if you doubted that the order really came from the President?

It comes down to you, the switch, and the death of millions.

You can only assume that a launch order was a valid command upon verification of it and if you have no information contradicting the validity of the order all you can really do is believe that it was ordered in response to an attack. So yes. Key would be inserted and turned.

BTW. Reagan was a great American, a great patriot and a great president.

He also had Alzheimer's, and there's plenty of evidence either way about how much it affected his presidency, if at all. Would knowing that the president had Alzheimer's affect your choice?

When it comes to filling that job, do they pick the guy who will do whatever he's told all the time, or do they want someone with a history critical thinking?

Also,

targetman377 wrote:i hope you all never join the army

And I hope you are never ordered to kill your family.

On a more tactical level I think the question has to do with the viability of the chain-of-command. Only the Americans' President and Secretary of Defense operating in the corporate personality of the so-called "National Command Authority" can order a nuclear release, so the question of Reagan's Alzheimers was probably never a threat.

While the President could probably just fire a Secretary of Defense who refused to agree to war orders, presumably the Deputy, then Under, Secretaries would similarly refuse which would be enough time for the cabinet to declare a President incompetent under Article 25. Nixon went through three Attorneys-General in a day before he found one who would fire the Special Prosecutor and there was a lot less on the line than the apocalypse.

jay_a2j wrote:

targetman377 wrote:i hope you all never join the army

And I hope you are never ordered to kill your family.

why would i be ordered to do that? We live in America i know how much u conspiracy people think the government is out to get everyone. when in reality the government does not care or take that much interest in your life. And if i was ordered to kill my family there would be good reason and would be told about it in my bribing. Yes it would still be hard i would most likely warn them BUT SEEING as how my family are all citizens of this country they have RIGHTS!!! and must be TRIALED IN COURT!!!! EVEN IF your not a citizen you still have rights!!1 The government does not go around killing it's citizens. Do you honestly believe that they would even give me that order? Every herd of conflict of interest? (this is if the government did kill my family) WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY PICK ME TO CARRY IT OUT. your statement is false and just plain dumb on so many different levels.

The Bison King wrote: You have you're beliefs and I have mine. I have a lot of respect for a lot of things I'm not willing to die for, but I think the the person who makes the decision should bear the burden of flipping the switch.

Interesting how you put that. I do understand that you have your beliefs and i am sorry if that sounded harsh. When you go to work every day knowing any day could be the day you have to flip a switch yes they live with it. I would say they live with the reality of there choice they may never have to make! Think about it these people live know they could do nothing all day or kill 1,000,000 + people today. They live with it every day! they are stronger than me and i think these people are stronger than all of us.

targetman377 wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:

targetman377 wrote:i hope you all never join the army

And I hope you are never ordered to kill your family.

why would i be ordered to do that? We live in America i know how much u conspiracy people think the government is out to get everyone. when in reality the government does not care or take that much interest in your life. And if i was ordered to kill my family there would be good reason and would be told about it in my bribing. Yes it would still be hard i would most likely warn them BUT SEEING as how my family are all citizens of this country they have RIGHTS!!! and must be TRIALED IN COURT!!!! EVEN IF your not a citizen you still have rights!!1 The government does not go around killing it's citizens. Do you honestly believe that they would even give me that order? Every herd of conflict of interest? (this is if the government did kill my family) WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY PICK ME TO CARRY IT OUT. your statement is false and just plain dumb on so many different levels.

So, in essence you are saying the the people you are launching nukes at DON'T have rights? Because YOU don't know them personally you couldn't give a damn what happens to them. That THOSE people do not have families of their own, they do not have people who care about them but yet YOUR precious family is somehow superior to them. So much so that you could "nuke" em.






Got it.

I am sorry to say this Target, but I hope you will never get into such a position of responsibility.

I respect the military and all it's members (I have had relatives in the military), but I simply am not courageuos enough to join the military. I would definitely not put myself in a position of that power, as I do not consider myself wise enough to handle all of that. If I was in that situation, I would not "flip the switch", but that would only be to personal avail, because if orders were sent to launch the missle and I didn't do it, somebody else would. besides, I don't think one person could launch the missle, for security reasons it probably contains many launch codes and must be confirmed by numerous officials. Who knows what would happen if the system were set up so that one person could launch the missle? What if somebody snapped, went crazy, and fired a missle all by himself? What I'm saying is, the responsibility of firing a missle and killing thousands wouldn't fall on your shoulders alone.

... Targetman is right of course, in theory. That's why:

1. To be given that responsibility perhaps requires more than just going through basic training (perhaps some specialized mental conditioning is also involved).

2. The two switches to launch are too far apart to be flipped by one person - it's a two man job. Each has a pistol he is to use to shoot the other, should the other have "misgivings".

targetman377 wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:

targetman377 wrote:i hope you all never join the army

And I hope you are never ordered to kill your family.

why would i be ordered to do that? We live in America i know how much u conspiracy people think the government is out to get everyone. when in reality the government does not care or take that much interest in your life. And if i was ordered to kill my family there would be good reason and would be told about it in my bribing. Yes it would still be hard i would most likely warn them BUT SEEING as how my family are all citizens of this country they have RIGHTS!!! and must be TRIALED IN COURT!!!! EVEN IF your not a citizen you still have rights!!1 The government does not go around killing it's citizens. Do you honestly believe that they would even give me that order? Every herd of conflict of interest? (this is if the government did kill my family) WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY PICK ME TO CARRY IT OUT. your statement is false and just plain dumb on so many different levels.

Alright, target. For the sake of arguments: The government does not give you the order of 'kill your family'. Rather this situation happens:

You are sitting in the chair, key ready. The order comes in to launch, where you say you will not hesitate 1 second.
Here is the interesting part: Your family is on the other side. You know that launching that missile will nuke the country where your family is living.
The order would imply that you kill your family.

Still no hesitation?

As for me, IF I were in such a position, I'd probably do it. You won't even get there if you aren't able/ willing. If it's a moral dilemma, then ofcourse i would NOT do it. Who in his right mind would kill millions and millions of people, while starting the next world war?

targetman377 wrote:your a soldier! and as such you are trained to not question the supreme authority of your officers! Yes i understand that might be hard for you to understand i wish an army veteran should come in this thread and share there experiences. Yes being a solider means you have to make tough choices but with out people to do that you would not be able to sit ideal by and express your freedoms that were gained by soldiers with more honer and bravery than any of you people have! God bless our soldiers.

Nuremberg Principle 4 wrote:The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him

jay_a2j wrote:If you were ordered to kill your entire family, would you? Orders ? Yeah, bite me.

Would you support a government and an economic policy that directly resulted in the deaths of millions of people world wide, from hunger, various diseases, and outright murder, that could largely be minimized, if only to provide yourself with some marginally better creature comforts?

targetman377 wrote:i hope you all never join the army

I hope you never do. At least as a missile launch button pressing guy.

Streaker wrote:As for me, IF I were in such a position, I'd probably do it.

You would willingly kill millions just because some guy orders you to? Why? What possible reason could you ever have for doing so?

targetman wrote:your a soldier! and as such you are trained to not question the supreme authority of your officers! Yes i understand that might be hard for you to understand i wish an army veteran should come in this thread and share there experiences. Yes being a solider means you have to make tough choices but with out people to do that you would not be able to sit ideal by and express your freedoms that were gained by soldiers with more honer and bravery than any of you people have! God bless our soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism