Conquer Club

The logic is quite simple, but I will repeat it.

The points system is designed to award play according to the game settings. Some tournaments offer tournament rewards which are different from game settings. Therefore those games should not be rated by the points system.

This is so obviously true, I can not understand why it is even being debated.

pickleofdoom wrote:The logic is quite simple, but I will repeat it.

The points system is designed to award play according to the game settings. Some tournaments offer tournament rewards which are different from game settings. Therefore those games should not be rated by the points system.

This is so obviously true, I can not understand why it is even being debated.

You conclusion does not automatically follow from your premises, so you're actually committing a logical fallacy. Just because tournaments give medals (only to the winner by the way) does not mean that points should not be exchanged as well. By your logic, no games should count for points because all games count towards earning medals (standard, doubles, triples, assassin, etc.).

Actually, now that I reread your statement, your first premise is also false. The points system is the same for EVERY person and is not according to the game settings.

SirSebstar wrote:updates are not really miracles.

This made me chuckle .

Night Strike wrote:

pickleofdoom wrote:The logic is quite simple, but I will repeat it.

The points system is designed to award play according to the game settings. Some tournaments offer tournament rewards which are different from game settings. Therefore those games should not be rated by the points system.

This is so obviously true, I can not understand why it is even being debated.

You conclusion does not automatically follow from your premises, so you're actually committing a logical fallacy. Just because tournaments give medals (only to the winner by the way) does not mean that points should not be exchanged as well. By your logic, no games should count for points because all games count towards earning medals (standard, doubles, triples, assassin, etc.).

Actually, now that I reread your statement, your first premise is also false. The points system is the same for EVERY person and is not according to the game settings.

What on earth have medals got to do with what i was saying??

Really.

I give up.

Goodbye.

Gillipig wrote:

SirSebstar wrote:updates are not really miracles.

This made me chuckle .

Me too. Silly isnt it.

pickleofdoom wrote:

Gillipig wrote:

SirSebstar wrote:updates are not really miracles.

This made me chuckle .

Me too. Silly isnt it.

I don't think we chuckle at the same thing .

What i found amusing is that the original poster wanted to twist the word CHEATING to somehow benefit his situation. I agree 100 percent that all games should be played to win.. Finishing 2nd place in a tournament game that pays the top 2 finishers is considered a win to me. I have advanced to the next round, Therefore i have won. If rank advancement is what your after then there are some tournies you should not enter. Assassin games also play out in a manner that is different from the norm. I do not play them often , but depending on the situiation i will not attack the strongest player if he is not my target . Thats not considered deliberately throwing a game but instead a tactical maneuver.

danfrank wrote:What i found amusing is that the original poster wanted to twist the word CHEATING to somehow benefit his situation. I agree 100 percent that all games should be played to win.. Finishing 2nd place in a tournament game that pays the top 2 finishers is considered a win to me. I have advanced to the next round, Therefore i have won. If rank advancement is what your after then there are some tournies you should not enter. Assassin games also play out in a manner that is different from the norm. I do not play them often , but depending on the situiation i will not attack the strongest player if he is not my target . Thats not considered deliberately throwing a game but instead a tactical maneuver.

that is particularly true if the assassin tournament is one where the eliminated target is the only one who doesn't progress to the next round

And then there are tournaments where the first one who gets eliminated gets to pick next rounds settings or map. If you find yourself in a bad position in such a game, aiming to get eliminated first might be a valid strategy.

Me again.

sundance123 wrote:Is this cheating?

danfrank wrote:What i found amusing is that the original poster wanted to twist the word CHEATING to somehow benefit his situation.

That is unfair. You are just all ganging up to mutually affirm each other with cheap shots. Fine but it contributes nothing to the debate.

danfrank wrote:Finishing 2nd place in a tournament game that pays the top 2 finishers is considered a win to me. I have advanced to the next round, Therefore i have won.

Assuming that the CC points system ony rewards the first placed player, this perfectly represents the point I am making.

danfrank wrote: If rank advancement is what your after then there are some tournies you should not enter. :

And this seems to be the answer. If it is too much trouble to change the points system so as to allow tournament games to reward with rating points good play according to the tournament objectives, then that is fine. I can accept that. I do not expect CC team to work night and day to fix everything.
But I wish people would stop claiming that the point raised is somehow invalid, when it is clearly valid.

pickleofdoom wrote:Me again.

sundance123 wrote:Is this cheating?

danfrank wrote:What i found amusing is that the original poster wanted to twist the word CHEATING to somehow benefit his situation.

That is unfair. You are just all ganging up to mutually affirm each other with cheap shots. Fine but it contributes nothing to the debate.

danfrank wrote:Finishing 2nd place in a tournament game that pays the top 2 finishers is considered a win to me. I have advanced to the next round, Therefore i have won.

Assuming that the CC points system ony rewards the first placed player, this perfectly represents the point I am making.

danfrank wrote: If rank advancement is what your after then there are some tournies you should not enter. :

And this seems to be the answer. If it is too much trouble to change the points system so as to allow tournament games to reward with rating points good play according to the tournament objectives, then that is fine. I can accept that. I do not expect CC team to work night and day to fix everything.
But I wish people would stop claiming that the point raised is somehow invalid, when it is clearly valid.

Have you ever read the title "liberalism is a mental disorder" ?. The point as it applies to the situation is invalid. Just because the original poster was outwitted in the end doesn`t give him the right to condemn the tournament community as a whole. To put the system on trial so to say. Let`s punish all tournament players and organizers for cheating + .. NOW THAT`S INSANE and to sum it up.. Insanity is a mental disorder .

Fine Pickleofdoom, I hear you and can partly relate to your observation.
Yes you are correct in stating that it seems odd that tournament games follow the same point program as 'regular' games, while sometimes a player does try to not loose the tournament by loosing a game. this is not discussions, but Q&A. Consider however this, all games and settings work on the same pointsystem, where clearly they are not the same. Why then should tournament be treated differently, when many tournaments are simply winners take all, and whomever takes the points gets the win.

i dont mind if you take this to discussions, although there are apparently a vocal lot for the status quo. But as it stands today, there is no difference(with regard to cc points) and if it wins you the tournament, it is a valid strategy to loose game(read, make sure someone else looses the game but as a consequence you cannot win that game.)

that wraps it up i think.

Thankyou sirsebstar, all reasonable points. I may come up with some proposal and post in the suggestions thread, I will think about it.

As to the poster above talking about mental illness, I dont think that needs any kind of reply. So I´ll accept you wrapping up the issue there.

pickleofdoom wrote:Thankyou sirsebstar, all reasonable points. I may come up with some proposal and post in the suggestions thread, I will think about it.

As to the poster above talking about mental illness, I dont think that needs any kind of reply. So I´ll accept you wrapping up the issue there.

My point was made to the cheating aspect , i do understand your point and may tend to agree that certain or even all tournament games should derive with a different point system. In fact CC points ( rank driven ) and tournament points would actually be pretty cool. Cheers Pickle

pickleofdoom wrote:
As to the poster above talking about mental illness, I dont think that needs any kind of reply.

Nice to read a considered response. Pickle you are a gent.

Thanks to all posters.

It may be a valid strategy to lose on purpose to advance in a tournie but one thing is for sure, is not honorable. Not so much cheating as it is fighting dirty. nuff said

Proximus Ventor wrote:It may be a valid strategy to lose on purpose to advance in a tournie but one thing is for sure, is not honorable. Not so much cheating as it is fighting dirty. nuff said

It's not honorable?

I don't think anyone is losing on purpose to advance. That isn't allowed. What they do is make sure that they meet the qualifications for points or advancement as the primary. And winning, will get you advancement and the most possible points in every tournament that I've ever seen, so I don't think anyone is losing on purpose. They just aren't getting last on purpose or their making sure to get in the top 2 on purpose. That is not the same as losing on purpose.

chapcrap wrote:

Proximus Ventor wrote:It may be a valid strategy to lose on purpose to advance in a tournie but one thing is for sure, is not honorable. Not so much cheating as it is fighting dirty. nuff said

It's not honorable?

I don't think anyone is losing on purpose to advance. That isn't allowed. What they do is make sure that they meet the qualifications for points or advancement as the primary. And winning, will get you advancement and the most possible points in every tournament that I've ever seen, so I don't think anyone is losing on purpose. They just aren't getting last on purpose or their making sure to get in the top 2 on purpose. That is not the same as losing on purpose.

Well said Chap. All's fair in war right? If you can't beat 'em, do enough to advance with them! It sucks, but it does work.

greenoaks wrote:that is particularly true if the assassin tournament is one where the eliminated target is the only one who doesn't progress to the next round

i've had a rather strong example of that sometime ago.

[game]8737292[/game]

it was the semi-final of an assassin-tournament.
the rules where as follows:
if you get assassinated twice in the entire tournament, you're out.
once there's only 2 players left, they play a best of 3.
well, we had only 3 players left, and all of us already lost a game, so the only one not going to the finals would be the assasinated player.

what would your strategy in such a game be?
staying alive is the only way to reach the finals, so instead of moving for my target i went for the defense. and i'm still behind that decission right now. because "not losing" is so much more important then "winning", it made absolutely no sense to make the first move in that game. while in other situations i might've taken a bigger risk, right now taking that risk meant risking a medal.

at anyone who thinks that this strategy is cheating, i ask, take a good look at the setup of this game, and think about how you would act in this game. because this is the perfect game where the best move is to stay alive, instead of winning.

ps: red was rather angry at me after that game, but down worry, we talked it out&theres no hard feelings.

chapcrap wrote:

Proximus Ventor wrote:It may be a valid strategy to lose on purpose to advance in a tournie but one thing is for sure, is not honorable. Not so much cheating as it is fighting dirty. nuff said

It's not honorable?

I don't think anyone is losing on purpose to advance. That isn't allowed. What they do is make sure that they meet the qualifications for points or advancement as the primary. And winning, will get you advancement and the most possible points in every tournament that I've ever seen, so I don't think anyone is losing on purpose. They just aren't getting last on purpose or their making sure to get in the top 2 on purpose. That is not the same as losing on purpose.

OK chap i'll rephrase for your benifit.

It may be a valid strategy to not get last on purpose but its not very nice. Its NOT cheating but it IS fighting dirty. You can win a street fight by kicking their nuts, punching their throat and gouging the eyes but its not very nice is it? you still win though. Even Bruce Lee says in his book "if you know you cant win a fight, go for the throat and eyes". I see this all the time in poker tournaments where points for placing are more important then the prize money (like top 4 get a ticket)and once it even led to someone getting stabbed.

Personally i dont do this on CC but i see it all the time and have had it done to me. Its a players choice to opt for that stategy and sometimes its the only choice one has to stay in the tournie. I'd rather bow out then play dirty but thats just me. Players need to realise that in any tournie where points are the way players advance this WILL happen.

At the end of the day all one has is their principles.

Definitely not cheating. It's really more like Grand Strategy and if everyone knows the scoring system for the tourney then it's fair play.

Proximus Ventor wrote:OK chap i'll rephrase for your benifit.

It may be a valid strategy to not get last on purpose but its not very nice. Its NOT cheating but it IS fighting dirty. You can win a street fight by kicking their nuts, punching their throat and gouging the eyes but its not very nice is it? you still win though. Even Bruce Lee says in his book "if you know you cant win a fight, go for the throat and eyes". I see this all the time in poker tournaments where points for placing are more important then the prize money (like top 4 get a ticket)and once it even led to someone getting stabbed.

Personally i dont do this on CC but i see it all the time and have had it done to me. Its a players choice to opt for that stategy and sometimes its the only choice one has to stay in the tournie. I'd rather bow out then play dirty but thats just me. Players need to realise that in any tournie where points are the way players advance this WILL happen.

At the end of the day all one has is their principles.

Thanks, that really benefitted me.

Anyway, it's not that I like to do this. Or that I even support it. My first choice is ALWAYS to win. But, if I can't win, I do support doing what you can to help yourself out. If you can't win and you just need to finish in a certain spot, then it makes sense to try to do that. Of course, I think that in almost every game, if there are 4 or more people left, you still have a shot at winning, so there is no reason to 'play dirty'. But, I'm not just gonna bow out. Ever.

chapcrap wrote:

Proximus Ventor wrote:OK chap i'll rephrase for your benifit.

It may be a valid strategy to not get last on purpose but its not very nice. Its NOT cheating but it IS fighting dirty. You can win a street fight by kicking their nuts, punching their throat and gouging the eyes but its not very nice is it? you still win though. Even Bruce Lee says in his book "if you know you cant win a fight, go for the throat and eyes". I see this all the time in poker tournaments where points for placing are more important then the prize money (like top 4 get a ticket)and once it even led to someone getting stabbed.

Personally i dont do this on CC but i see it all the time and have had it done to me. Its a players choice to opt for that stategy and sometimes its the only choice one has to stay in the tournie. I'd rather bow out then play dirty but thats just me. Players need to realise that in any tournie where points are the way players advance this WILL happen.

At the end of the day all one has is their principles.

Thanks, that really benefitted me.

Anyway, it's not that I like to do this. Or that I even support it. My first choice is ALWAYS to win. But, if I can't win, I do support doing what you can to help yourself out. If you can't win and you just need to finish in a certain spot, then it makes sense to try to do that. Of course, I think that in almost every game, if there are 4 or more people left, you still have a shot at winning, so there is no reason to 'play dirty'. But, I'm not just gonna bow out. Ever.

So after all this we actually agree. Its not cheating and is merely a last resort to servive the tournament in order to have a shot at winning the thing.

danfrank wrote:What i found amusing is that the original poster wanted to twist the word CHEATING to somehow benefit his situation. I agree 100 percent that all games should be played to win.. Finishing 2nd place in a tournament game that pays the top 2 finishers is considered a win to me. I have advanced to the next round, Therefore i have won. If rank advancement is what your after then there are some tournies you should not enter. Assassin games also play out in a manner that is different from the norm. I do not play them often , but depending on the situiation i will not attack the strongest player if he is not my target . Thats not considered deliberately throwing a game but instead a tactical maneuver.

A similar situation comes up in terminator games. What's a "win" in a terminator game? The person who finishes it? Or the person who gets the most points (not always the same person)? Or everyone who gains more points than they lose? I think the latter. I don't play terminator games to win like a standard win, or to win the most points... I play to maximize MY net point gain, which often means killing the highest-ranked person I possibly can, and allowing myself to be killed by the highest-ranked person possible.

The structure of the game -- or the tournament -- determines what the optimum strategy is. If you don't like it, don't play in games/tourneys with that structure. But don't blame people for optimizing their play for their own best benefit. That's human nature and will never change.

I don't see a problem here. Solo games and tournaments are different set-ups with the same objective.
Win the Game by any legal means.
Win the Tournament by any legal means.
If going for a tournament win means not going for a win in a particular game that seems like reasonable tactics.

Having said that, there are some legal methods that I wouldn't use myself, eg. deliberatly missing a turn or not ending a turn. But I wouldn't complain if they were used against me.