Conquer Club

tkr4lf wrote:As for your poll, how about people who identify as socially liberal and fiscally conservative?

I did briefly consider that distinction. Personally, I feel that people put a premium on one or the other (whether they realize it or not). So this is a good exercise to perhaps decide what premium you have.

Personally, I regard the conservative vs liberal argument as it pertains to government intervention. There are a lot of people that have personal liberal values but do not feel it is the government's place to make an agenda of those values. That person would identify more with conservatism imo. Conversely, a person could have strong conservative values in their own personal dealings but advocate a more liberal government.

Symmetry wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Symmetry wrote:Are we going by American conservative definitions here? Using the standard scale of (from left to right):

Marx - Hitler - Stalin - Obama - Carter - The Main Stream Media - Fox - Reagan (what he actually did) - The Founding Fathers - God - Reagan (what American conservatives think he did)

Wait... Hitler was left of Stalin?

Oh, right... American conservative definitions where "conservative" means "stupid." Understood.

That's the one, although I understand there's some debate. National Socialist after all.

I was under the impression that National Socialism was a right wing ideology...

Seems a bit counter intuitive, since Socialism is left wing, but...

I don't know, I could be wrong. That's just what I thought. Like for some reason, I remember reading that communism and national socialism were these radically opposed ideologies. It's been a while since I gave a rat's ass enough to read anything about that stuff though.

Anybody know?

ViperOverLord wrote:

tkr4lf wrote:As for your poll, how about people who identify as socially liberal and fiscally conservative?

I did briefly consider that distinction. Personally, I feel that people put a premium on one or the other (whether they realize it or not). So this is a good exercise to perhaps decide what premium you have.

Personally, I regard the conservative vs liberal argument as it pertains to government intervention. There are a lot of people that have personal liberal values but do not feel it is the government's place to make an agenda of those values. That person would identify more with conservatism imo. Conversely, a person could have strong conservative values in their own personal dealings but advocate a more liberal government.

Ok, that makes more sense.

With that in mind, I would regard myself as more of a conservative, since I think government involvement in our lives should be as minimal as possible. But, in my own personal life, I have more liberal tendencies. Eh, whatever. I'm somewhere in the middle of the continuum line.

tkr4lf wrote:I was under the impression that National Socialism was a right wing ideology...

Seems a bit counter intuitive, since Socialism is left wing, but...

I don't know, I could be wrong. That's just what I thought. Like for some reason, I remember reading that communism and national socialism were these radically opposed ideologies. It's been a while since I gave a rat's ass enough to read anything about that stuff though.

Anybody know?

It is correct to put Hitler and Stalin next to each other. The traditional Left/Right model is inadequate.

The difference between the national socialists and the communists is thus-
Both believe in socialism- The Nazis on the National level, the Communists on the World Wide level.
Both used pitting against each other different groups- The Nazis used Race, the Communists used Classes.

Karl Marx said this, does it sound familiar?-

Marx wrote:The classes and races too weak to master the new conditions of life must give way. They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust.

Hitler and Stalin would get along just fine and dandy if they merely avoided talking about financials. Where Hitler and Stalin stand on the Political Compass-

tkr4lf wrote:

ViperOverLord wrote:

tkr4lf wrote:As for your poll, how about people who identify as socially liberal and fiscally conservative?

I did briefly consider that distinction. Personally, I feel that people put a premium on one or the other (whether they realize it or not). So this is a good exercise to perhaps decide what premium you have.

Personally, I regard the conservative vs liberal argument as it pertains to government intervention. There are a lot of people that have personal liberal values but do not feel it is the government's place to make an agenda of those values. That person would identify more with conservatism imo. Conversely, a person could have strong conservative values in their own personal dealings but advocate a more liberal government.

Ok, that makes more sense.

With that in mind, I would regard myself as more of a conservative, since I think government involvement in our lives should be as minimal as possible. But, in my own personal life, I have more liberal tendencies. Eh, whatever. I'm somewhere in the middle of the continuum line.

Just don't place yourself among the kind of morons who put that graph above together.

Do you take issue with the actual graph (axis) or the placement of the dots?

Lootifer wrote:Do you take issue with the actual graph (axis) or the placement of the dots?

I think he takes issue with the idea that it comes nowhere close to suiting his delusional political narrative.

Is Stalin on the political left because he had a tendency to murder all his rivals? My thoughts are that there is very little liberal action in American government, simply because no drastic steps --outside of cronyism-- will ever be considered acceptable. So basically Washington and it's law making core will always be conservative regardless of labels put on elected officials.

I'm a label less independent.

The whole conservative/liberal distinction is much less obvious in most European politics than what you guys are used to, I think. For example here in Finland we have several political parties that currently have seats in the parliament, they all would fit on somewhat different spots on the left-right axis. So to me the whole left/right distinction (as in, labeling people as left/right or lib/con) doesn't really make sense as such.

Ideas and issues can be labeled, but people usually have multiple ideas that often are ideologically at least somewhat conflicting, if you only look at them on the left-right axis.

I guess a lot of people consider me a liberal, but really if you look at the "social/fiscal" distinction then I'm really much more centrist on the fiscal side. I don't support a totally free market, I don't support a total government regulation, I think the answer is somewhere between them. Socially I identify with liberal ideas more.

natty dread wrote:The whole conservative/liberal distinction is much less obvious in most European politics than what you guys are used to, I think. For example here in Finland we have several political parties that currently have seats in the parliament, they all would fit on somewhat different spots on the left-right axis. So to me the whole left/right distinction (as in, labeling people as left/right or lib/con) doesn't really make sense as such.

Ideas and issues can be labeled, but people usually have multiple ideas that often are ideologically at least somewhat conflicting, if you only look at them on the left-right axis.

I guess a lot of people consider me a liberal, but really if you look at the "social/fiscal" distinction then I'm really much more centrist on the fiscal side. I don't support a totally free market, I don't support a total government regulation, I think the answer is somewhere between them. Socially I identify with liberal ideas more.

Yep Im pretty much the same though perhaps slightly right of centre concerning fiscal policy.

Rational, Reasonable and scientific. Neither political label applies to me, because both political parties make massive mistakes and assumptions, which I am able to avoid.

oVo wrote:Is Stalin on the political left because he had a tendency to murder all his rivals? My thoughts are that there is very little liberal action in American government, simply because no drastic steps --outside of cronyism-- will ever be considered acceptable. So basically Washington and it's law making core will always be conservative regardless of labels put on elected officials.

I'm a label less independent.

Isn't the far left where communism is? Wasn't Stalin a communist? Are you arguing that communism is not far left?

AAFitz wrote:Rational, Reasonable and scientific. Neither political label applies to me, because both political parties make massive mistakes and assumptions, which I am able to avoid.

All areas (apart from extremes) of the political spectrum can be Rational, Reasonable and scientific, also they all can be irrational, unreasonable and unscientific.

Politics is politics because the underlying arguments are largely opinion, not fact.

AAFitz wrote:Rational, Reasonable and scientific. Neither political label applies to me, because both political parties make massive mistakes and assumptions, which I am able to avoid.

Many conservatives feel that the Republicans abandoned their commitment to conservatism. They'll make a few poster issues but by and large they do what they want even regarding the poster issues. A lot of liberals feel the same way about Democrats. I don't think relating to conservatism or liberalism means that you subscribe to the agenda of any American political party.

After a few days of deep thought, I've come to the conclusion that the only label I can rightly apply to myself is, "ViperOverLord".

ViperOverLord wrote:Isn't the far left where communism is? Wasn't Stalin a communist? Are you arguing that communism is not far left?

I dunno... I see Communism as extremely conservative in all social directions,
but Stalin's methods were radically extreme.

Lootifer wrote:

AAFitz wrote:Rational, Reasonable and scientific. Neither political label applies to me, because both political parties make massive mistakes and assumptions, which I am able to avoid.

All areas (apart from extremes) of the political spectrum can be Rational, Reasonable and scientific, also they all can be irrational, unreasonable and unscientific.

Politics is politics because the underlying arguments are largely opinion, not fact.

In your opinion.

oVo wrote:

ViperOverLord wrote:Isn't the far left where communism is? Wasn't Stalin a communist? Are you arguing that communism is not far left?

I dunno... I see Communism as extremely conservative in all social directions,
but Stalin's methods were radically extreme.

The collectivism and state control of Communism is a left doctrine. Conservatives (those on the right) generally abhor those concepts.

Timminz wrote:After a few days of deep thought, I've come to the conclusion that the only label I can rightly apply to myself is, "ViperOverLord".

Good one Simmons.

AAFitz wrote:Rational, Reasonable and scientific. Neither political label applies to me, because both political parties make massive mistakes and assumptions, which I am able to avoid.

Me too. Due to my unbelievably high intelligence, I'm able to avoid all mistakes made by all Americans who belong to any political party. Isn't it awesome being so rational, reasonable, and scientific unlike anyone else who belongs to a political party?

tkr4lf wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

Symmetry wrote:Are we going by American conservative definitions here? Using the standard scale of (from left to right):

Marx - Hitler - Stalin - Obama - Carter - The Main Stream Media - Fox - Reagan (what he actually did) - The Founding Fathers - God - Reagan (what American conservatives think he did)

Wait... Hitler was left of Stalin?

Oh, right... American conservative definitions where "conservative" means "stupid." Understood.

That's the one, although I understand there's some debate. National Socialist after all.

I was under the impression that National Socialism was a right wing ideology...

Seems a bit counter intuitive, since Socialism is left wing, but...

I don't know, I could be wrong. That's just what I thought. Like for some reason, I remember reading that communism and national socialism were these radically opposed ideologies. It's been a while since I gave a rat's ass enough to read anything about that stuff though.

Anybody know?

As far as the economic policies go, Communism was applied (early) socialism, which brought the means of production under government ownership and control.

National Socialism was less about government ownership, but it did exert extreme control over the means of production. Essentially, it was an extreme form of "crony/political capitalism," where private property rights were fickle, many prices were centrally mandated, and the profit and loss mechanism was largely influenced by one's political connections.

To borrow from Heart of Iron, here's a central planning v. free market spectrum (10 being extreme central planning):
Communism (as applied by the Soviets) = 10
National Socialism (Hitler) = 8

thegreekdog wrote:

AAFitz wrote:Rational, Reasonable and scientific. Neither political label applies to me, because both political parties make massive mistakes and assumptions, which I am able to avoid.

Me too. Due to my unbelievably high intelligence, I'm able to avoid all mistakes made by all Americans who belong to any political party. Isn't it awesome being so rational, reasonable, and scientific unlike anyone else who belongs to a political party?

All Hail the Two Philosopher Kings!

Will a third one please step up??

BigBallinStalin wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

AAFitz wrote:Rational, Reasonable and scientific. Neither political label applies to me, because both political parties make massive mistakes and assumptions, which I am able to avoid.

Me too. Due to my unbelievably high intelligence, I'm able to avoid all mistakes made by all Americans who belong to any political party. Isn't it awesome being so rational, reasonable, and scientific unlike anyone else who belongs to a political party?

All Hail the Two Philosopher Kings!

Will a third one please step up??

I was making fun of Fitzy. [sad face].

ViperOverLord wrote:

Timminz wrote:After a few days of deep thought, I've come to the conclusion that the only label I can rightly apply to myself is, "ViperOverLord".

Good one Simmons.

That's Simmons the ViperOverLord, to you boy!

thegreekdog wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

AAFitz wrote:Rational, Reasonable and scientific. Neither political label applies to me, because both political parties make massive mistakes and assumptions, which I am able to avoid.

Me too. Due to my unbelievably high intelligence, I'm able to avoid all mistakes made by all Americans who belong to any political party. Isn't it awesome being so rational, reasonable, and scientific unlike anyone else who belongs to a political party?

All Hail the Two Philosopher Kings!

Will a third one please step up??

I was making fun of Fitzy. [sad face].

Take your crown with pride, good sir!


(I know).

I find it better to assume that people know when you're employing some rhetorical device, and to never explain that you are, because if people don't know, they're probably not worth telling.