Conquer Club

Symmetry wrote:Just for you Tripitaka:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuwWwVjm ... re=related

Thanks for contributing

Funny, that is exactly how my head feels! (Hopefully I look a little better though ).

On the first question, unfortunately, we can't escape from the fact that the phrase, "A book and five pens" describes more than one thing. This is just one of those cases where the correct grammar sounds awkward, and what a skillful writer or speaker will do is re-structure as Tripitaka suggested, to separate the singular "a book" from the plural verb, or in any of several other manners: "I have, on my desk...", "There is a book, as well as..." or "a book, and also..."

The paraphernalia one is tough. I think the difficulty has to do with the changing of word meanings over time. "-alia" is a plural ending, but in Greek. I think it could be argued that the proper usage of the English word is not necessarily governed by that, and it can be considered collective, allowing the singular verb, "is", which sounds better and makes more sense.

Symmetry wrote:There ............. a book and five pens on my desk.

"is" or "are"

Reversing the sentence gives you your answer: A book and 5 pencils are on my desk.

Voila! Try that with "is".

Also, Five pencils and a book are on my desk.

Clear as day

Indeed. I'd have gone for are, just an awkward sentence really.

BUTTER!?!

btownmeggy wrote:

BUTTER!?!

Guiscard wrote:

btownmeggy wrote:

BUTTER!?!

The1exile wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:It's not so much uncountable as collective.

But so is butter, I think, and that's still "is".

The answer is "Is".
Becuase you are saying "There is a book" and etc the next bit.
If you had said "There are a book, pens, rubber, " etc it would be are.
But just concentrate on the bit before the conjunction, and you will be at peace, my son.

suggs wrote:The answer is "Is".
Becuase you are saying "There is a book" and etc the next bit.
If you had said "There are a book, pens, rubber, " etc it would be are.
But just concentrate on the bit before the conjunction, and you will be at peace, my son.

No.

btownmeggy wrote:

Guiscard wrote:

btownmeggy wrote:

BUTTER!?!

The1exile wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:It's not so much uncountable as collective.

But so is butter, I think, and that's still "is".

All becomes clear...

Suggs?

btownmeggy wrote:

Who would have thought a grammar thread could provoke such a response?

Symmetry wrote:There ............. a book and five pens on my desk.

"is" or "are"

The subject "a book and five pens" should agree with the verb- "are", but I would say "is".

Anybody interested in the English language? Thoughts?


dullest post ever

I like what daddy1gringo said. It should be 'are', but if that is a bit weird then just rewrite the sentence.

what is brownmrtguy taliking about.
You can NEVER say "There are a book on my desk".


and, jusdt to cover my scrawny back, I'm with Humpty Dumpty on grammar-write, or say, what scans/sounds the best to YOU. Language is a living, flexible thing, created by individuals, not by ponces in thier oxford towers writng dictionaries.

If you say this,

suggs wrote:Language is a living, flexible thing, created by individuals, not by ponces in thier oxford towers writng dictionaries.

How can you say this?,

suggs wrote: You can NEVER say "There are a book on my desk".

yes, thats a fair point which i was hoping no one would pick up on!
But, if you are playing by the rules (Which is all that grammar is), then i would maintain you can "never" say There are a book".
But humpty would no doubt disagree.
The point of grammar really is to aid effective communication.
So the answer is "IS".

suggs wrote:The answer is "Is".
Becuase you are saying "There is a book" and etc the next bit.
If you had said "There are a book, pens, rubber, " etc it would be are.
But just concentrate on the bit before the conjunction, and you will be at peace, my son.

Is is incorrect.

And the point of grammar is not to aid communication. It is to maintain logic in the language. This is why a plural subject must have the appropriate verb.

Not sure if I agree with that Hatchman. A double negative is logical, but grammatically weak. That would certainly be an example of communication taking priority over logic as a driving force. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the importance of either.

Anyway- the advice I gave to my students was restructure the sentence. Unfortunately, they are still learners, so asking them to anticipate this kind of problem and avoid it is pretty tough.

My solution justifying the use of the singular:

There is a pen and 5 books. = There is a pen and there are 5 books.

The repetition of "there" is unnecessary, and can be removed. This explanation can also be justified by usage (although that's not always the best way to justify grammar).

Quoted from http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/ ... bverb.html

9. In sentences beginning with there is or there are, the subject follows the verb. Since there is not the subject, the verb agrees with what follows.


There are many questions.

There is a question.

Doesn't that justify suggs' view on saying that it should be "there is a book and 5 pens"?

Well, what complicates matters is that you have a singular and a plural in your compound subject. If the conjunction joining those nouns were "or" instead of "and", you'd go with the verb that agrees with the nearest noun. But because the conjunction is "and", this means the subject is unquestionably plural, and this simply requires the plural verb "are". At this point, style becomes just as important as grammar, and it's best to say "There are 5 pencils and a book on my desk." This satisfies both the demands of the grammar rule and the dictates of style.

Hopefully that ends my lovely lecture for the day...

hatchman, you just restated what was said on page 1. Congratulations.

Thanks

You're welcome.