Conquer Club

Martin Ronne wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:Yes. As a socialist I feel that it's an unfair advantage.

It's not necessarily a bad idea for the individual who gets the privilege.

An unfair advantage? Thats one I haven't heard before.

Well, that's the whole point, right? Private schools have more money, better equipment, can pay teachers more, etc.
So for those who can afford it, their children start with an educational advantage.
For everyone to start with a decent education is the ideal, and a socialist one. I know that many people feel the word "socialist" is some sort of devil-word, so feel free to substitute another word which won't offend you.
But if the state is required to provide a decent education (and it supposedly is in most countries) then that education should be an adequate one.
I except specialist schools as I said, since I don't think it's necessarily the state's duty to do that.

Yes private schools are necessary. I'm not saying there aren't good public schools anywhere, but being fortunate enough to live near one can be a problem. Private schools are a priviledge, tend to be elite, very expensive and you get what you pay for... an excellent education and a great foundation for the next step. Usually college.

The reason private schools are important is, many locations in the US do not have good public schools.

...which indicates a failure on the part of the state to provide a decent education, no?
The solution is to fix that, not to accept a situation in which only the rich can get a decent education.

jonesthecurl wrote:...which indicates a failure on the part of the state to provide a decent education, no?
The solution is to fix that, not to accept a situation in which only the rich can get a decent education.

There's the rub. Furthermore, successive Governments and their Heads of Education will insist on social engineering. Give the power to a central organisation as we have in the UK which is Government controlled and you are asking for trouble. The educational standards need to be more widely benchmarked. Needs change as decades change but it is well to remember the way you are taught and the attitudes you are influenced by as a child will stay with you for a very long time.

When the Labour party in the UK were going through one of their real ultra socialist moments back in the early 1970s and were threatening to close all private schools, my school simply organised a wholesale move to Ireland. The plans were ready and everyone, Pupils and Parents, were told at the Speech day gathering. History shows this policy of the incumbent Government never came to pass, but it came pretty close. Without exception every Parent was willing to keep sending their child to Ireland rather than the awful system there was then. I believe standards have increased (contrary to most people of my age group) but I would still send my Children through the private system.

The fees for my old School now run at around £25,000 a year per pupil. I cannot see an argument that says to a person, 'you are not allowed to have the freedom to choose your child's education'. I have always been happy to pay my taxes and then pay for my Children to all be privately educated (they are all finished now thank the Lord). Even though this has effectively been a further tax as I gained nil benefit from the part of the tax I paid that went to the Government run educational system, (and I mean nil as my children went private from the age of 4).

Private education is, in my opinion, one of the cornerstones of the freedom of choice. Take this away, and what next?

I'm pragmatic, and if the local school system did not provide a decent education (which it does, pretty much), I would consider private schooling for the kids. My point is that (a) this should not be necessary, and (b) where it is, it further disadvantages those kids who were already poorer by ensuring that their richer age-peers leave school with a better education.

Having said that, i do not feel that the state should interfere too directly or too often in the day-to-day running of schools. I was a school governor in the UK, and governmental hands-on micromanaging (and worse, the constant changing in response to this week's theory/lobby group/headlines) was a total pain in the butt.

hecter wrote:Public schools should be more than enough to cover all the basic and even advanced needs of the students.

The highlighted word being the OPERATIVE word. But they are not.

Agreed. At least not everywhere.
But, again, the answer is not to abandon the public system (if you have the cash, and care enough) or allow kids to be inadequately educated (ifnot, or you don't). It's to fix it.

Jay (you head bashin mofo) that avvy is really disturbing And why pray tell are you no longer prem?

[/THREAD_DISRUPTION]

KoolBak wrote:Jay (you head bashin mofo) that avvy is really disturbing And why pray tell are you no longer prem?

[/THREAD_DISRUPTION]

(continues new direction) That's live video - blind and mouthy.

jay_a2j wrote:

hecter wrote:Public schools should be more than enough to cover all the basic and even advanced needs of the students.

The highlighted word being the OPERATIVE word. But they are not.

Agreed

You people are fucking scaring me now. Maybe I should go back to private school... but I have heard that NJ has some of the best public schools in the U.S, which is one of the reasons I considered switching, I really only wanted to see what public school was like

LYR wrote:You people are fucking scaring me now. Maybe I should go back to private school... but I have heard that NJ has some of the best public schools in the U.S, which is one of the reasons I considered switching, I really only wanted to see what public school was like

You could have started down that road by asking someone who was in a public school what it was like.

got tonkaed wrote:

LYR wrote:You people are fucking scaring me now. Maybe I should go back to private school... but I have heard that NJ has some of the best public schools in the U.S, which is one of the reasons I considered switching, I really only wanted to see what public school was like

You could have started down that road by asking someone who was in a public school what it was like.

Well I had already heard that my public school was good.

LYR wrote:

got tonkaed wrote:

LYR wrote:You people are fucking scaring me now. Maybe I should go back to private school... but I have heard that NJ has some of the best public schools in the U.S, which is one of the reasons I considered switching, I really only wanted to see what public school was like

You could have started down that road by asking someone who was in a public school what it was like.

Well I had already heard that my public school was good.

Ironically, though everyone is quick to find fault with the educational system "in general", they usually say their local system, the one where their kids go is "OK" or "doing well".

The basic problem is when private schools teach something very differant from what is accepted or taught in public. Specialty schools, are of course an exception. However, even then, a school may emphasize music, but should offer a decent background in math, etc or the kids are not being truly prepared for the world.

Similarly, people should be allowed to teach their chidren their religious values through a private school, BUT basic standards have to be maintained. The Amish here are a bit of a problem. They only believe in education through 8th grade. They "experimented" with High School, etc and basically found that the kids decided they did not want to stay Amish if they went to high school (some exceptions) and so they backed away. But, here is the thing. These kids then go out and spend a year or more learning about the world at about age 16. Many never do return, never get baptized. What then?

I respect the Amish. There are things I think we could learn from them. But, I also realize that I tended to ideolize them before I ever really came in contact with Amish communities, Amish people.

I use them as just one example. There are many, but I think that is the question ... not so much where the schooling is offered, but is enough offered. I do agree, though that seeing private schools as an alternative to poor public schools cheats all those kids who were not lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

LYR wrote:

got tonkaed wrote:

LYR wrote:You people are fucking scaring me now. Maybe I should go back to private school... but I have heard that NJ has some of the best public schools in the U.S, which is one of the reasons I considered switching, I really only wanted to see what public school was like

You could have started down that road by asking someone who was in a public school what it was like.

Well I had already heard that my public school was good.

Ironically, though everyone is quick to find fault with the educational system "in general", they usually say their local system, the one where their kids go is "OK" or "doing well".

I use them as just one example. There are many, but I think that is the question ... not so much where the schooling is offered, but is enough offered. I do agree, though that seeing private schools as an alternative to poor public schools cheats all those kids who were not lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

Not all kids who go to private school have parents who are rich.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

LYR wrote:

got tonkaed wrote:

LYR wrote:You people are fucking scaring me now. Maybe I should go back to private school... but I have heard that NJ has some of the best public schools in the U.S, which is one of the reasons I considered switching, I really only wanted to see what public school was like

You could have started down that road by asking someone who was in a public school what it was like.

Well I had already heard that my public school was good.

Ironically, though everyone is quick to find fault with the educational system "in general", they usually say their local system, the one where their kids go is "OK" or "doing well".

No joke: the Hawaiian school system really, really blows.

KoolBak wrote:Jay (you head bashin mofo) that avvy is really disturbing And why pray tell are you no longer prem?

[/THREAD_DISRUPTION]

The avy is me before I have my morning coffee.

I am not perm because when I was, I spent entirely too much time here.

LYR wrote: Not all kids who go to private school have parents who are rich.

True, I should have just said those who can afford it (not necessarily rich at all!) and those poorer kids who are lucky enough to get a scholarship.

The point is that many kids just don't have those options and there is definitely an argument that allowing so many to just flee to private schools reduces the demand, and even to an extent the money and energy needed, to improve public schools.

I don't think public schools will serve every need, but when they fail so many ... the answer is better PUBLIC schools and not just saying "there are private schools available".

PLAYER57832 wrote:

LYR wrote: Not all kids who go to private school have parents who are rich.

True, I should have just said those who can afford it (not necessarily rich at all!) and those poorer kids who are lucky enough to get a scholarship.

The point is that many kids just don't have those options and there is definitely an argument that allowing so many to just flee to private schools reduces the demand, and even to an extent the money and energy needed, to improve public schools.

I don't think public schools will serve every need, but when they fail so many ... the answer is better PUBLIC schools and not just saying "there are private schools available".

Privates are mostly far better schools and getting into them is another great thing. They choose who they take so you only have smart kids at some and the dum dums at another

PLAYER57832 wrote:

LYR wrote: Not all kids who go to private school have parents who are rich.

True, I should have just said those who can afford it (not necessarily rich at all!) and those poorer kids who are lucky enough to get a scholarship.

The point is that many kids just don't have those options and there is definitely an argument that allowing so many to just flee to private schools reduces the demand, and even to an extent the money and energy needed, to improve public schools.

I don't think public schools will serve every need, but when they fail so many ... the answer is better PUBLIC schools and not just saying "there are private schools available".

The education system/government may be part of the problem, but the children are too. What is their initiative? I really do not feel like searching for proof, but I am quite sure that their is an agreed upon consensus that American children are usually dumber than those of other countries. They really do not care about education (at least a majority do not, some do, and most of those that do, frankly, probably have parents from foreign countries which pressure them to get good grades).

Yada Yada Yada predictable argument about how Americans are stupid (me included - I fucking hate the education system here... not to mention the government, the teenagers, the lack of discipline, the idiocy, etc. etc.)

And yes, I don't have time to elaborate. So please, agree with me and then disagree.... jonesthecurl? Jay? etc?

Somewhat relevant video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ebpOJadtY

sailorseal wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

LYR wrote: Not all kids who go to private school have parents who are rich.

True, I should have just said those who can afford it (not necessarily rich at all!) and those poorer kids who are lucky enough to get a scholarship.

The point is that many kids just don't have those options and there is definitely an argument that allowing so many to just flee to private schools reduces the demand, and even to an extent the money and energy needed, to improve public schools.

I don't think public schools will serve every need, but when they fail so many ... the answer is better PUBLIC schools and not just saying "there are private schools available".

Privates are mostly far better schools and getting into them is another great thing. They choose who they take so you only have smart kids at some and the dum dums at another

They take the ones with money, or for religious private schools (at least the Jewish ones), anybody who wants to go, who is Jewish (really good with scholarships)...

sailorseal wrote: Privates are mostly far better schools and getting into them is another great thing. They choose who they take so you only have smart kids at some and the dum dums at another

At my school we had an average 7 per class and some 10 streams per year. One was/is graded in the first year then joins different streams depending on level of aptitude. Naturally these streams are re-evaluated each academic year. There were, however, some boys who were always in the H-K levels in just about everything, but there was always something they would shine at and the school would then be able to focus resources on those areas.

The problem for state run schools is purely resource. If you are in a class of 7 each paying (via parents) some 25,000 GPB then the maths are simple, that class produces a revenue of £175,000 a year (250,000 USD). Easily enough to provide for the resources to educate the group highly. Work out how much your Government spends per pupil then see the difference.

LYR wrote:

sailorseal wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

LYR wrote: Not all kids who go to private school have parents who are rich.

True, I should have just said those who can afford it (not necessarily rich at all!) and those poorer kids who are lucky enough to get a scholarship.

The point is that many kids just don't have those options and there is definitely an argument that allowing so many to just flee to private schools reduces the demand, and even to an extent the money and energy needed, to improve public schools.

I don't think public schools will serve every need, but when they fail so many ... the answer is better PUBLIC schools and not just saying "there are private schools available".

Privates are mostly far better schools and getting into them is another great thing. They choose who they take so you only have smart kids at some and the dum dums at another

They take the ones with money, or for religious private schools (at least the Jewish ones), anybody who wants to go, who is Jewish (really good with scholarships)...

This seems odd. In NY the private schools have plenty of Jewish kids and are looking for students of color to give scholarships

That's because there are almost as many Jews in NY as in Israel.

sailorseal wrote:
This seems odd. In NY the private schools have plenty of Jewish kids and are looking for students of color to give scholarships

I said the Jewish private schools, not the secular ones. In other words, Yeshivas.

InkL0sed wrote:That's because there are almost as many Jews in NY as in Israel.

That is simply not true. The Jewish population in Israel exceeded the one in the United States within the past two years, I believe, and not all the Jews who live in the United States live in New York. There are plenty in New Jersey, Florida, Chicago, and California.