Conquer Club

TheProwler wrote:I am arguing against the idea that N will ever reach infinity.

THORNHEART wrote:could it be that mans mind cant quite grasp infinity?

could we be failible?

could there be a greater power that has estabilished all this

could it be that somethings we will never quite understand because we were not created with the ability nor purpose to understand.

If this really is such an easy and simple question as many have said then how come there is so much controversy....infinity means just that there is no closure no final equation. Man cannot grasp that something might not have an expliantion because we live in a a finite world at least on earth everything has a solution and final ending...but that is not so in eternity and also in the infinity of space. Hahaha for all our great accomplishments man really is a pathetic creature and very small in true knowledge

TheProwler wrote:

john9blue wrote:

TheProwler wrote:

How Doc_Brown and others can read something this idiotic and not correct your mistakes is a testament to the lack of integrity people have when they've "picked a side".

This is a perfect example of someone who is patting himself on the back for "understanding" something when he doesn't have a clue.

You didn't disprove him...

Who? jonesthecurl?

How about he comes up with his proof to show how he came up with 0.9999...? You know, with a somewhat proper solution; not just using vague wording.

Let's call Fred's speed F.

Joe's speed is J.

F = .9J

To simplify things, pick actual speeds that these two travel that will satisfy the 90% condition.


I can go on naming variables and solving the equation for the time that Joe catches up to Fred.

But I'd like to see jones show how he is getting 0.999...

"He goes 90% of the way, then he goes 90% of the next distance, and so on."

And he comes up with 0.999...!!! Hahahaha!!! Plug in some real numbers and you can see there is no 0.999... forming. First snapshot, Fred went 9 yards. The second snapshot, Fred went 8.1 yards. The next, he went 7.29 yards. So where's the 0.999... coming from?


We should all know that if we plot this on a graph, time on the x-axis and distance on the y-axis, we are going to just have two lines with different slopes. And they are obviously going to intersect if you start the slower slope at a greater distance than the faster slope.

His explanation is bloody ridiculous!

"This is of course, nonsense, and it turns out he does pass him.
Because, as it happens, .999... is equal to 1. It's just a different way of expressing it.
If it weren't, overtaking anything would be physically impossible."

This has nothing to do with 0.999...!!!!

Does he not realize that his explanation of the "problem", he is only allowing smaller and smaller periods of time to elapse between taking snapshots? The first segment, Joe ran 10 yards. The next, 9 yards. The next, 8.1 yards. And so on. But he runs a consistent speed. So obviously we are dealing with smaller and smaller periods of time. And the periods of time will continue to get smaller and smaller.

We have two numbers that are of interest. The TIME that has to expire before Joe catches Fred (call that T). And the DISTANCE that Joe has to run before he catches Fred (call that D). As long as we continue to allow smaller and smaller segments of time to elapse...as long as we keep stopping to take measurements every time Joe goes 90% as far as the last time we stopped for a measurement...the limit of the time that will expire is T and the limit of the distance Joe has run is D. (As long as we are allowed to pause time to take our snapshots...ha!!)

So if we were mapping out these two lines on a graph, we'd just be slowing down...slower....slower....slower....slower....never allowing the two lines to intersect. Because we have to stop to take that snapshot.

But unfortunately for the artsy types that read this little "problem" and found it interesting, you can't slow down time. Oh no!!! Did I just say that?? I take it back!!! All of you can slow down time!!! You are so awesome!!!


So, john9blue, did you also think "Logically, joe can never catch Fred, he can only get .999999.... of the way."?

AAFitz wrote:

THORNHEART wrote:could it be that mans mind cant quite grasp infinity?

could we be failible?

could there be a greater power that has estabilished all this

could it be that somethings we will never quite understand because we were not created with the ability nor purpose to understand.

If this really is such an easy and simple question as many have said then how come there is so much controversy....infinity means just that there is no closure no final equation. Man cannot grasp that something might not have an expliantion because we live in a a finite world at least on earth everything has a solution and final ending...but that is not so in eternity and also in the infinity of space. Hahaha for all our great accomplishments man really is a pathetic creature and very small in true knowledge

Oh yeah, tell that to the crocodile. Its been on this planet for millions of years. He still sleeps in the water, and we wear him as boots, belts and carry our money around in wallets made of him. We are discussing a creature that has existed for millions of years, on a planet that we completely dominated and took over. ((Please do not think I do not understand the fact that this same intelligence, may very well be our undoing. Furthermore, and technically speaking, such undoing only really matters to those around when said undoing unfolds. The rest of us still get to play with our toys and internet until it happens...))

The very fact that we can ask such questions, and ponder them shows your statement to be pathetic, and small in knowledge. The human imagination actually knows no bounds and no limits. It does take time, however. Further, you are assuming that people dont actually understand infinity, simply because everyone doesnt agree what infinity is... the fact is, some may know and understand it perfectly and be perfectly correct in their opinions. The fact that others disagree does not make them incorrect, only not fully accepted. Those that realized the earth orbited the moon, were thought of as madmen in their day. They of course were right, even while the rest of the population disagreed.

The great thing about being correct, is that it does not require acceptance of all, many or even one other person. If you are right, you are right, and it simply does not matter who disagrees, so, to say no one here understands infinity, or lacks the imagination to fully understand it, only shows that you do not understand the infinite possibilities of the human mind.

TheProwler wrote:

Timminz wrote:

TheProwler wrote:Seriously, why would the pattern all of a sudden end at infinity?

Because it is impossible to arrive "at infinity".

He is trying to make a point against me....but he is actually defining the core problem when dealing with the concept of infinity.

If 0.999... never reaches an infinite number of decimal places, it will never equal 1.

jonesthecurl wrote:Your image of making a graph of the example is exactly the right approach.

It is why, in the original Xeno's paradox of Achilles and the tortoise. Achilles does pass the tortoise. The reason that there is an apparent paradox is that the Greeks didn't have graphs to enable them to envisage this. In the original paradox, Achilles runs ten times as fast as the tortoise, and Xeno has him always catching up the distance the tortoise has run since the last calculation, by which time the tortoise has moved one tenth of that diatance again. The solution (hold on to your hat) is that the distance the tortoise has moved before Achilles overtakes him is 1/9 of the original lead that the tortoise had. measuring it like Xeno does and putting it in modern numerals we get 0.11111111... of the original lead.

It is an infinite series and it does equal 1/9. or Achilles will never pass the tortoise.

And 0.99999... does equal 1 or Joe would never pass Fred in my previous example.

jiminski wrote:yes i think the concept of infinity is beyond human comprehension. like the infinite universe it gets a little bigger as we reach its limitless limit.

TheProwler wrote:

jiminski wrote:yes i think the concept of infinity is beyond human comprehension. like the infinite universe it gets a little bigger as we reach its limitless limit.

Timminz has it all sorted out. It's really quite simple. Just ask him.

jonesthecurl wrote:You can have exactly six coins, but you can't have exactly six yards.

jonesthecurl wrote:Go back to your graph. Imagine it. The exacct place at which one runner overtakes the other, or Achilles overtakes the tortoise, is shown on the graph.

jonesthecurl wrote:But the two lines on your graph have the thickness of the pencil you've drawn them with, or the number of pixels you've got your computer to display. The point at which the two lines meet has a thickness.

jonesthecurl wrote:You can refine this, and theoretically the lines should each have no thickness, being onely one-dimensional. They meet at a point which has no dimensions at all, where the two one-dimension lines intersect.

jonesthecurl wrote:You can refine the "point" you are actually imagining to the thickness of a pencil line, a single pixel, the width of an atom, or an electron.

jonesthecurl wrote:You can refine its position as exactly as you like, but the point itself is infinitely smaller than that, having no dimensions at all. the "difference" between the point which you can measure and the "ideal" point is exactly the same as the difference between .99... and 1:

It's not just that it's so small you can't measure it. It doesn't exist. They are the same.

frankiebee wrote:.333+.333+.333=.999

1/3+1/3+1/3= 1

1/3 is not .333

So .999 is not 1

Snorri1234 wrote:

TheProwler wrote:

jiminski wrote:yes i think the concept of infinity is beyond human comprehension. like the infinite universe it gets a little bigger as we reach its limitless limit.

Timminz has it all sorted out. It's really quite simple. Just ask him.

He's not saying we can grasp the concept, he's saying that we can use it in math.

0.999... is defined as 1 by mathematics. Your objection to it is philosophical rather than mathematical. Your post to jones, while certainly true, should have clued you in to what you are missing. 0.999... is the limit of the sequence (0.9, 0.99, 0.999, 0.9999, ...), therefore it is 1.

Your objection is philosophical because you are arguing that one can never reach, or "finish", an infinte number of tasks (calculating the last digit of 0.999...). While that's certainly a viable objection, Math does not care about that. Math is not the real world, the axioms and definitions it's based upon are not neccesarily true for the real world, they are however certainly true for mathematics. So if you use infinity in mathematics, you end up with using Archimedean properties and therefore conclude that 0.999... and 1 are the same number.


That is fundamentally true. There are no infinitesimal positive numbers because that would be logically contradictory. That means logically that there is nothing between 0.999... and 1. When you compare two things which aren't different in anyway, they are the same.

MeDeFe wrote:

frankiebee wrote:.333+.333+.333=.999

1/3+1/3+1/3= 1

1/3 is not .333

So .999 is not 1

True.
But on the other hand

0.3... + 0.3... + 0.3... = 0.9...

1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1

1/3 is 0.3...

So 0.9... is 1

frankiebee wrote: 1/3 = 0.3 ???
To simplify things, if you share 100 pizza slices with 3 people. Than 3 persons would get 1/3 of the total. With the logic 1/3=0.3 that would mean that they would all get 30 slices. That cannot be right ?
Therefore 1/3=0.33 is also wrong, cause you would still miss one slice.

Snorri1234 wrote:

frankiebee wrote: 1/3 = 0.3 ???
To simplify things, if you share 100 pizza slices with 3 people. Than 3 persons would get 1/3 of the total. With the logic 1/3=0.3 that would mean that they would all get 30 slices. That cannot be right ?
Therefore 1/3=0.33 is also wrong, cause you would still miss one slice.

He said 0.3..., not 0.3

nippersean wrote:yeah bur then there's 0.000000.....1 bit of pizza left.

Is this limit / approaching thing like that stuff you use in calculus?