Conquer Club

jay_a2j wrote:Wrong. Capitalism is not based on greed. If Joe who owns Big Mart sells a TV for $400, and Sue who owns Small Mart sells the same TV for $350, Sue will probably sell more TV's because it's cheaper. (and this is why Wal-Mart is so successful here in the US) Now if the government owns both Big Mart and Small Mart and sell the TV for $500, too bad, there is no other place to buy the TV from because there is no competition.



Greed is like when a company makes products overseas in some 3rd world sweatshop, paying the employees .50 an hour to make their goods. This is bad. And not a result of Capitalism, it's a result of greed. (Sorry Wal-Mart, you greedy business you!)

But jay, if they paid their employees a decent wage and made sure working conditions were humane those TVs would cost at least 650$ at Wal-Mart. In order to maximise profits (capitalism good!) expenses must be minimised, and expenses include such things as wages for employees. Or are you saying there should be *shudder* regulations? You dirty commie.


BTW where did you get the idea that any critic of capitalism here would want an economy where the state owns every business?

jay_a2j wrote:

hecter wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:that is the most narrow analysis I have ever heard

You cannot deny that capitalism is based on greed. It's been stated time and time again, "If you have nothing to gain, you wouldn't go into business, you wouldn't work." Gain, making profit, is inherently greedy. You want something. There has to be a personal reward. How is that not greed? I'm not saying it's good, I'm not saying it's bad, but it's greed nonetheless.

Do you go to work? Then by your own definition YOU are greedy.

I am greedy. I never said I wasn't. But the quest for profits is greedy, making profit is greedy. Business is all about making profit, capitalism is all about business.

hecter wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:

hecter wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:that is the most narrow analysis I have ever heard

You cannot deny that capitalism is based on greed. It's been stated time and time again, "If you have nothing to gain, you wouldn't go into business, you wouldn't work." Gain, making profit, is inherently greedy. You want something. There has to be a personal reward. How is that not greed? I'm not saying it's good, I'm not saying it's bad, but it's greed nonetheless.

Do you go to work? Then by your own definition YOU are greedy.

I am greedy. I never said I wasn't. But the quest for profits is greedy, making profit is greedy. Business is all about making profit, capitalism is all about business.

Nope, greed is a sin and therefore has nothing to do with capitalism, as it is the shit.

Frigidus wrote: Nope, greed is a sin and therefore has nothing to do with capitalism, as as it is the shit.

FACT FICTION OPINION

hecter wrote:I am greedy. I never said I wasn't. But the quest for profits is greedy, making profit is greedy. Business is all about making profit, capitalism is all about business.

The quest for profits - oooooohhhh! Makes it sound like an evil crusade full of monsters. I guess we need more businesses to go under so our glorious leader can assume command of them and lead us into everlasting utopia. One thing's for sure, we can't ever accuse the government of being greedy since they constantly run deficits through the roof. Maybe it's all part of the plan so they can avoid criticism.

The quest for profits - oooooohhhh! Makes it sound like an evil crusade full of monsters. I guess we need more businesses to go under so our glorious leader can assume command of them and lead us into everlasting utopia. One thing's for sure, we can't ever accuse the government of being greedy since they constantly run deficits through the roof. Maybe it's all part of the plan so they can avoid criticism.

The reason they run deficits is because people are too greedy (word used a lot here, eh?) to pay enough taxes. It's liberalism gone haywire.

KomradeKloininov wrote:

The quest for profits - oooooohhhh! Makes it sound like an evil crusade full of monsters. I guess we need more businesses to go under so our glorious leader can assume command of them and lead us into everlasting utopia. One thing's for sure, we can't ever accuse the government of being greedy since they constantly run deficits through the roof. Maybe it's all part of the plan so they can avoid criticism.

The reason they run deficits is because people are too greedy (word used a lot here, eh?) to pay enough taxes. It's liberalism gone haywire.

Alternatively, the reason the government runs deficits is because they spend more money than they take in. I know... that's a novel concept. Maybe I'll get published in a reputable economics journal of some kind. I can see the headline now, "Thegreekdog comes up with new theory - if you spend more than you earn, you run a deficit. More on page 112."

thegreekdog wrote:

KomradeKloininov wrote:

The quest for profits - oooooohhhh! Makes it sound like an evil crusade full of monsters. I guess we need more businesses to go under so our glorious leader can assume command of them and lead us into everlasting utopia. One thing's for sure, we can't ever accuse the government of being greedy since they constantly run deficits through the roof. Maybe it's all part of the plan so they can avoid criticism.

The reason they run deficits is because people are too greedy (word used a lot here, eh?) to pay enough taxes. It's liberalism gone haywire.

Alternatively, the reason the government runs deficits is because they spend more money than they take in. I know... that's a novel concept. Maybe I'll get published in a reputable economics journal of some kind. I can see the headline now, "Thegreekdog comes up with new theory - if you spend more than you earn, you run a deficit. More on page 112."

-How about because they are dumbasses?

-Anyways, I just thought I should clear this up. Everyone on this thread seems to think anything done for personal gain (e.g. working) is greedy. However, greed is the excessive desire for something. making a reasonable profit is not greedy. Destroying the competition so that you can raise prices to extremely high levels is greed.

Burrito wrote: -Anyways, I just thought I should clear this up. Everyone on this thread seems to think anything done for personal gain (e.g. working) is greedy. However, greed is the excessive desire for something. making a reasonable profit is not greedy. Destroying the competition so that you can raise prices to extremely high levels is greed.

I'd call it "outmaneuvering."

KomradeKloininov wrote:

The quest for profits - oooooohhhh! Makes it sound like an evil crusade full of monsters. I guess we need more businesses to go under so our glorious leader can assume command of them and lead us into everlasting utopia. One thing's for sure, we can't ever accuse the government of being greedy since they constantly run deficits through the roof. Maybe it's all part of the plan so they can avoid criticism.

The reason they run deficits is because people are too greedy (word used a lot here, eh?) to pay enough taxes. It's liberalism gone haywire.

Uh...what? That doesn't even make basic sense.

Burrito wrote:Destroying the competition so that you can raise prices to extremely high levels is greed.

I'd call it "sensible" and "what capitalism is about".

Snorri1234 wrote:

Burrito wrote:Destroying the competition so that you can raise prices to extremely high levels is greed.

I'd call it "sensible" and "what capitalism is about".

Quite.

Burrito wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

KomradeKloininov wrote:

The quest for profits - oooooohhhh! Makes it sound like an evil crusade full of monsters. I guess we need more businesses to go under so our glorious leader can assume command of them and lead us into everlasting utopia. One thing's for sure, we can't ever accuse the government of being greedy since they constantly run deficits through the roof. Maybe it's all part of the plan so they can avoid criticism.

The reason they run deficits is because people are too greedy (word used a lot here, eh?) to pay enough taxes. It's liberalism gone haywire.

Alternatively, the reason the government runs deficits is because they spend more money than they take in. I know... that's a novel concept. Maybe I'll get published in a reputable economics journal of some kind. I can see the headline now, "Thegreekdog comes up with new theory - if you spend more than you earn, you run a deficit. More on page 112."

-How about because they are dumbasses?

-Anyways, I just thought I should clear this up. Everyone on this thread seems to think anything done for personal gain (e.g. working) is greedy. However, greed is the excessive desire for something. making a reasonable profit is not greedy. Destroying the competition so that you can raise prices to extremely high levels is greed.

Ermm... the reason we (I) work in our system is to get more stuff. There aren't too many externalities beyond that. It's greed. Anyways, the people who massive profits aren't the only representation of greed. It's just that they're better at accumulating stuff. Greedy people who aren't as talented at getting more stuff aren't necessarily less greedy than the "successful," they're just greedy people with less stuff.

Woodruff wrote:

KomradeKloininov wrote:

The quest for profits - oooooohhhh! Makes it sound like an evil crusade full of monsters. I guess we need more businesses to go under so our glorious leader can assume command of them and lead us into everlasting utopia. One thing's for sure, we can't ever accuse the government of being greedy since they constantly run deficits through the roof. Maybe it's all part of the plan so they can avoid criticism.

The reason they run deficits is because people are too greedy (word used a lot here, eh?) to pay enough taxes. It's liberalism gone haywire.

Uh...what? That doesn't even make basic sense.

I would assume our Komrade is speaking of California, Prop 13 style. It's also possible he's speaking about the Bush legacy of tax cuts.

Demanding something (health care coverage) that you can not afford is BEYOND greedy. being able to afford something you need thru hard work and intelligence is not greedy, its responsible and being able to take care of yourself.

how bad does that statement piss you off?

TA!

When God was passing out brains.... near the end, he started to run short, so he cut the remaining brains up so that he had enough to go around.




That's why we have liberals.

jay_a2j wrote:When God was passing out brains.... near the end, he started to run short, so he cut the remaining brains up so that he had enough to go around.




That's why we have liberals.

But a lot of them don't believe in God, therefore God must not exist, therefore your argument is false, therefore liberals are all really smart. QED.

Phatscotty wrote:Demanding something (health care coverage) that you can not afford is BEYOND greedy. being able to afford something you need thru hard work and intelligence is not greedy, its responsible and being able to take care of yourself.

how bad does that statement piss you off?

TA!

Wow. That actually made sense on the first read through. Gratz Scotty

Burrito wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:Demanding something (health care coverage) that you can not afford is BEYOND greedy. being able to afford something you need thru hard work and intelligence is not greedy, its responsible and being able to take care of yourself.

how bad does that statement piss you off?

TA!

Wow. That actually made sense on the first read through. Gratz Scotty

It's funny how one say that the government is responsible for protecting its citizens from criminals and hostile nations, yet it shouldn't at all be responsible for taking care of its citizens' health--regardless of the health problems the government has indirectly bestowed upon us like largely failing to address problems concerning pollution.

jay_a2j wrote:When God was passing out brains.... near the end, he started to run short, so he cut the remaining brains up so that he had enough to go around.




That's why we have liberals.

With Jesus Christ at the head of the line.

Onward Liberal soldiers, spread the word of Keynes?

spurgistan wrote:

Burrito wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:
Alternatively, the reason the government runs deficits is because they spend more money than they take in. I know... that's a novel concept. Maybe I'll get published in a reputable economics journal of some kind. I can see the headline now, "Thegreekdog comes up with new theory - if you spend more than you earn, you run a deficit. More on page 112."

-How about because they are dumbasses?

-Anyways, I just thought I should clear this up. Everyone on this thread seems to think anything done for personal gain (e.g. working) is greedy. However, greed is the excessive desire for something. making a reasonable profit is not greedy. Destroying the competition so that you can raise prices to extremely high levels is greed.

Ermm... the reason we (I) work in our system is to get more stuff. There aren't too many externalities beyond that. It's greed. Anyways, the people who massive profits aren't the only representation of greed. It's just that they're better at accumulating stuff. Greedy people who aren't as talented at getting more stuff aren't necessarily less greedy than the "successful," they're just greedy people with less stuff.

Greed means taking a profit without paying for your expenses. The problem is that in our country that is still way to easy to do.

When you decide its OK to pay someone a wage that is not enough to buy decent food, a safe house (in some areas a lot, elsewhere.. not much), reasonable clothing (used is fine) and decent health care (the check-ups, insurance for all but the aboslute worst stuff), then you are GREEDY.

When you decide its OK to throw stuff into the river/the groundwater table, etc and let someone else worry about cleaning it up... that's GREED.

When you decide that this species or that species is not important enough to protect for our children, even though we don't know enough about species to make such a decision ... that is GREED.

When you decide that your wants are superior to the needs of other people in any form, that is GREED.

Making a profit, wanting to be wealthy, expecting a higher return for harder work/more education/even a bigger investment is NOT greed. Expecting those things at the expense of either future business or other people's basic welfare IS greed. Pretending that costs don't exist because you don't see them directly IS greed

spurgistan wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

KomradeKloininov wrote:

The quest for profits - oooooohhhh! Makes it sound like an evil crusade full of monsters. I guess we need more businesses to go under so our glorious leader can assume command of them and lead us into everlasting utopia. One thing's for sure, we can't ever accuse the government of being greedy since they constantly run deficits through the roof. Maybe it's all part of the plan so they can avoid criticism.

The reason they run deficits is because people are too greedy (word used a lot here, eh?) to pay enough taxes. It's liberalism gone haywire.

Uh...what? That doesn't even make basic sense.

I would assume our Komrade is speaking of California, Prop 13 style. It's also possible he's speaking about the Bush legacy of tax cuts.

California's biggest problem was putting too much faith in continued unlimited growth without saving for future downturns.

The biggest problem with prop 13 was twofold. First, property values rose so high, so quickly that many hard-working people with homes paid for simply could not afford to pay taxes. Second, Calfornia decided to make itself friendly for business, but refused to make those businesses really and truly pay for all the benefits that made California such a wonderful place to live. So, we saw a drop in education, poorer roads, loss of many social services, etc.

It all comes down to the same thing.. play, dance, but in the end "the piper must be paid".

Complain all you like about "socialism", but the real truth is that either you pay in taxes or you pay in crime, illness, pollution and a long-term depressed economy that results when too many people just are not able to go out and buy things because they cannot get work (and there is no work because people are not going out and buying goods and services ... etc.).

PLAYER57832 wrote:Making a profit, wanting to be wealthy, expecting a higher return for harder work/more education/even a bigger investment is NOT greed.

Then what motivates one to do hard work? Surely not the desire to contribute to society, if that was the case most people would stay home. The truth is, people only work because they need to if they want to get stuff. Heck, if we only worked to get enough food, water and shelter to get us through life then why would anyone push for pay raises and extra benefits? The entire idea behind capitalism is to utilize the greed inherent in humanity to drive the economy. When one talks about the American Dream, one is talking about greed.

Frigidus wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:Making a profit, wanting to be wealthy, expecting a higher return for harder work/more education/even a bigger investment is NOT greed.

Then what motivates one to do hard work? Surely not the desire to contribute to society, if that was the case most people would stay home. The truth is, people only work because they need to if they want to get stuff. Heck, if we only worked to get enough food, water and shelter to get us through life then why would anyone push for pay raises and extra benefits? The entire idea behind capitalism is to utilize the greed inherent in humanity to drive the economy. When one talks about the American Dream, one is talking about greed.

Greed is a negative term. Simply wanting things is not greed. Greed means you want too much, want things for which you have not worked or paid.

Of course, wanting things motivates people.. so does a desire for security and yes, ironically enough, also altruism. Some people are motivated more by one than another, but all people are a mixture. My point is that it only become negative when they refuse to pay for what it takes. And today, THAT is far too common. Not as bad as in the 1900's, perhaps, but still bad.

You can make upwards of $52,000 a year driving a bus in Philadelphia. Just, you know, fyi.

MeDeFe wrote:Onward Liberal soldiers, spread the word of Keynes?

The biggest difference between a liberal and a conservative is in recognition of consequences.

Conservatives are more likely to see things in terms of personal impact and beliefs.
Conservatives are far less likely to see wide-reaching impacts when it comes to things they want to do and are more likely to see far-reaching impacts on things like morality, which comply with things they want to do. (to "stereotype" or grossly over-simplify, don't step on my ability to make money and don't overstep the bounds I set for morality). They want their income, their beliefs honored, but not necessarily everyone else's and often find it much easier to pretend that things like pollution, global warming, species eradication are simply not problems or not as big a set of problems as liberals insist.

Liberals are more likely to see things on a broad scale. Everything we do impacts everyone else, which means we have an inherit responsibility to others. Who we are and what we have is largely outside of our control, so while complete equity is not necessary at all, some sharing is necessary. Liberals see the impacts of pollutions of all forms, the necessity of all life, and believe that every individual (regardless of abilities, place of residence, etc) has a right to the same basic things -- basic safety, basic health, basic freedoms. Liberals see any limit on other's morality, short of where it harms others, as being bad.