Conquer Club

Night Strike wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

radiojake wrote:Ride a bike

and you guys have the cheapest gas in the world still - get over it

No... we just only pay a portion of the real cost.

There is no way we will EVER come close to paying for the damage done to the Gulf, even if money could fix it. Nor are we paying for the damage to the health of children who are born/grow up near petroleum processing centers, etc, etc, etc.

So, no. Our price is only an illusion.

You can't pay those "real costs" because they are impossible to quantify. But yes, we do pay WAY too much on gas because the prices are based on speculation and artificially low supplies from OPEC, not on actual gas in the system. Plus the fact that we have a few dozen different blends that must be used around the country. If the entire country used 1 blend, the costs would be marginally lower.

Fixed. Also, OPEC tries to get as much value for its energy reserves as possible. How is this a bad thing in a capitalist world economy? It's not like capitalism demands that we make as much as physically possible for anything else, why oil?

spurgistan wrote:

Night Strike wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

radiojake wrote:Ride a bike

and you guys have the cheapest gas in the world still - get over it

No... we just only pay a portion of the real cost.

There is no way we will EVER come close to paying for the damage done to the Gulf, even if money could fix it. Nor are we paying for the damage to the health of children who are born/grow up near petroleum processing centers, etc, etc, etc.

So, no. Our price is only an illusion.

You can't pay those "real costs" because they are impossible to quantify. But yes, we do pay WAY too much on gas because the prices are based on speculation and artificially low supplies from OPEC, not on actual gas in the system. Plus the fact that we have a few dozen different blends that must be used around the country. If the entire country used 1 blend, the costs would be marginally lower.

Fixed. Also, OPEC tries to get as much value for its energy reserves as possible. How is this a bad thing in a capitalist world economy? It's not like capitalism demands that we make as much as physically possible for anything else, why oil?

You're right, OPEC does act as they can within a capitalist framework. The problem is that our government's policies enable the price gouging done by OPEC (and we have no legal ability to stop it). Either the government is incredibly brilliant by making sure OPEC runs out of oil while we still have our reserves left untapped, or they're all for raising our costs in order to redistribute wealth. I'd lean toward the latter. We need to be self-reliant for our energy, not relying on OPEC.

Timminz wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:If our dollar got 50% stronger overnight, oil would be half the price tomorow. there are legitimate other reasons as NS points out, but so long as the dollar goes lower, gas is going higher

Right. That's why gas prices are rising almost everywhere in the world lately. Everyone's currency is tanking at the same time.

No! If the dollar got 50% stronger overnight, it be at 150% of its original state, and the price would not be 50% lower, it would be 25% lower, at 75% of its original state. If the dollar got 100% stronger over night, rising to 200% of its original strength, then yes, gas prices would be 50% lower. A common logical error in dealing with percents. No biggie

Timminz wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:If our dollar got 50% stronger overnight, oil would be half the price tomorow. there are legitimate other reasons as NS points out, but so long as the dollar goes lower, gas is going higher

Right. That's why gas prices are rising almost everywhere in the world lately. Everyone's currency is tanking at the same time.

yup. it's a race to zero.

Night Strike wrote: Either the government is incredibly brilliant by making sure OPEC runs out of oil while we still have our reserves left untapped, or they're all for raising our costs in order to redistribute wealth. I'd lean toward the latter.

I need a little clarification here;

I know you bandy on about redistribution of wealth all the time as if there is some world-wide socialist conspiracy to take your hard earned money and to give it to all those lazy bums who are too useless to get a job of their own - But I have to ask, just exactly how is OPEC raising oil costs to redistribute wealth?? Resdistribute wealth to whom?? To all those 'little people' out there? The same ones paying through their asses for petrol?

I know everyone on this board is prone to lunacy (myself included) but your assumption seems like one of the more far fetched ideas -

Phatscotty wrote:

Timminz wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:If our dollar got 50% stronger overnight, oil would be half the price tomorow. there are legitimate other reasons as NS points out, but so long as the dollar goes lower, gas is going higher

Right. That's why gas prices are rising almost everywhere in the world lately. Everyone's currency is tanking at the same time.

yup. it's a race to zero.

Nice talking-point, but that applies to a different discussion entirely. Allow me to spell this out for those who are too dense (or like to pretend they are too dense) to get it. Your initial point loses a lot of credibility when you look at any of a number of countries who have had strong currencies lately, and the price of gas is going up just as fast there as it is in your failing utopia.

Johnny Rockets wrote:Gas here is $1.24.9 cents a liter.

That's 5.00 a gallon for you Yanks.

f*ck!!!!!

And we SWIM in oil up here......gdamn global commodity trading.....


Johnny Rockets

You shouldn't swim in oil. Really not good. Also, isn't it mostly oil shale up there now? Still kinda expensive to extract, right?

spurgistan wrote:

Johnny Rockets wrote:Gas here is $1.24.9 cents a liter.

That's 5.00 a gallon for you Yanks.

f*ck!!!!!

And we SWIM in oil up here......gdamn global commodity trading.....


Johnny Rockets

You shouldn't swim in oil. Really not good. Also, isn't it mostly oil shale up there now? Still kinda expensive to extract, right?

Oil sands actually, but yes, it's expensive, and it uses a shit-tonne of fresh water to boot.

shieldgenerator7 wrote:

Timminz wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:If our dollar got 50% stronger overnight, oil would be half the price tomorow. there are legitimate other reasons as NS points out, but so long as the dollar goes lower, gas is going higher

Right. That's why gas prices are rising almost everywhere in the world lately. Everyone's currency is tanking at the same time.

No! If the dollar got 50% stronger overnight, it be at 150% of its original state, and the price would not be 50% lower, it would be 25% lower, at 75% of its original state. If the dollar got 100% stronger over night, rising to 200% of its original strength, then yes, gas prices would be 50% lower. A common logical error in dealing with percents. No biggie

Increase of 50% would bring total value to 150%. the increaese/total would be 50/150, or 66.66...%. Thank you.

Who measures percentages based on the end value?


Also, your math is off by a factor of 2. 50/150 =/= 66.66%

Timminz wrote:Who measures percentages based on the end value?


Also, your math is off by a factor of 2. 50/150 =/= 66.66%

I wrote it wrong. It will go down by 50/150. So, 100-(50/150)=66.66%. I know what I meant.

it was a rough estimate to begin with, as it's not an exact science. As I mentioned in the offending post, there are other factors, such as refining capacity, Chinese demand, Obamas moratoriums etc.

The main point is a large factor in high gas prices is the weakness of the USD. If we weren't dependent on foreign oil then this wouldn't be the case. If we were more economically responsible and fiscally sound with our balance sheets, then it wouldn't matter where our oil came from because our currency would get major bang for the buck.

Phatscotty wrote: Obamas' morontoriums etc.

fixed

If you want gas prices to go down, you need to increase the supply. Boycott Gas-x, Beeno, and the high fiber diet.

April 20, 2011
By Jeff Cox

A dollar plumbing three-year lows is hitting Americans squarely in the gas tank, and one economist thinks it could drive prices as high as $6 a gallon or more by summertime under the right conditions.

With the greenback coming under increased pressure from Federal Reserve policies and investor appetite for more risk, there seems little direction but up for commodity prices, in particular energy and metals.

Weakness in the US currency feeds upward pressure on commodities, which are priced in dollars and thus come at a discount on the foreign markets.

One result has been a surge higher in gasoline prices to nearly $4 a gallon before the summer driving season even starts, a trend that economists say will be aggravated as demand increases and the summer storm season threatens to disrupt oil supplies.

"All we have to have is a couple badly placed hurricanes which could constrain some of the refinery output capacity in some key locations," says Richard Hastings, strategist at Global Hunter Securities in Charlotte, N.C. "If you get weakness in the dollar concurrent with the strong driving season concurrent with the impact of one or two hurricanes in the wrong place, prices could go up in a quasi-exponential manner."

Timminz wrote:

spurgistan wrote:

Johnny Rockets wrote:Gas here is $1.24.9 cents a liter.

That's 5.00 a gallon for you Yanks.

f*ck!!!!!

And we SWIM in oil up here......gdamn global commodity trading.....


Johnny Rockets

You shouldn't swim in oil. Really not good. Also, isn't it mostly oil shale up there now? Still kinda expensive to extract, right?

Oil sands actually, but yes, it's expensive, and it uses a shit-tonne of fresh water to boot.

Both, but there is a lot of sweet crude in Alberta. Oil sand extraction methods are getting a lot better, and more environmentally responsible. I guess the oil company's realized that if they wanted to continue going after it, they would have to straighten the f*ck up before the feds stepped in....
Don't get me wrong, it's still destructive, but at least it's not as bad as it was and it's getting better.
Hell, Manitoba is producing a significant amount of oil now.....


JRock

Night Strike wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

radiojake wrote:Ride a bike

and you guys have the cheapest gas in the world still - get over it

No... we just only pay a portion of the real cost.

There is no way we will EVER come close to paying for the damage done to the Gulf, even if money could fix it. Nor are we paying for the damage to the health of children who are born/grow up near petroleum processing centers, etc, etc, etc.

So, no. Our price is only an illusion.

You can't pay those "real costs" because they are impossible to quantify.

I see, so no one can determine the value of your children's lives... so why bother to protect them

And, no... that is not an "irrelevant example". The rates of various illnesses are already increasing in children in the Gulf... even aside from the fact that one company, through pure greed, was allowed to endanger the entire lifestyle of the Gulf...and folks like you STILL seem to think too much attention is being paid to the damages.

No, we don't pay what oil actually costs, only the fiction of market prices constructed by people who feel, as you do, that anything you cannot understand can be simply discounted.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Night Strike wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

radiojake wrote:Ride a bike

and you guys have the cheapest gas in the world still - get over it

No... we just only pay a portion of the real cost.

There is no way we will EVER come close to paying for the damage done to the Gulf, even if money could fix it. Nor are we paying for the damage to the health of children who are born/grow up near petroleum processing centers, etc, etc, etc.

So, no. Our price is only an illusion.

You can't pay those "real costs" because they are impossible to quantify.

I see, so no one can determine the value of your children's lives... so why bother to protect them

And, no... that is not an "irrelevant example". The rates of various illnesses are already increasing in children in the Gulf... even aside from the fact that one company, through pure greed, was allowed to endanger the entire lifestyle of the Gulf...and folks like you STILL seem to think too much attention is being paid to the damages.

No, we don't pay what oil actually costs, only the fiction of market prices constructed by people who feel, as you do, that anything you cannot understand can be simply discounted.

I'm sorry that a company wants to actually make money for themselves and provide jobs to others. I guess you are opposed to those. You just want nothing to actually be created to actually create wealth. You just want the government to print money and give it to people. And the company wasn't even operating out of greed, they were operating there out of necessity. If the government had not banned the much safer shallow-water drilling, they would not have to be out there in the deep waters.

Night Strike wrote:
I'm sorry that a company wants to actually make money for themselves and provide jobs to others. I guess you are opposed to those.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

in the 19th century, folks like Rockafeller thought it perfectly OK, in fact necessary to have workers in extremely hazardous conditions. Funny.. conditions improved. The Rockafellers are still wealthy, even if they don't have the "robber baron" mansions any longer.

So, now the cry is "we have to DESTROY the environment", who cares about the Gulf coast people (they are just fishermen, other "work-a-day folks", and a few even have jobs from those oil rigs!).

It was a false argument then and is now. That ONE accident has left a mark on the Gulf that will not be erased for hundreds of years.

Night Strike wrote:You just want nothing to actually be created to actually create wealth. You just want the government to print money and give it to people.

Show where I have actually said this, because what I have said is that i WANT wealth and job creation, but TRUE, SUSTAINABLE jobs. This thing you tout is an illusion.

Salamanca is a town up above the NY border. People there have houses they built on land obtained in 100 year leases from the local tribes. At the time, most of them thought "eh-hundred years, the same as owning it outright... Then they looked to the government to undo the leases, saying that they had built up houses, etc. The answer? "Tough diddles!" You should have read the small print".

YOU are no different than those people. You think that 100 years is a long time, so why bother considering the consequences. Well, we are, right now, having to LIVE with the consequences of not having a single unpolluted stream here in the East, of having increased cancer rates, etc. In the Gulf, they had bad and good spots, but now its all pretty bad.

Night Strike wrote: And the company wasn't even operating out of greed, they were operating there out of necessity. If the government had not banned the much safer shallow-water drilling, they would not have to be out there in the deep waters.

Oh, I see, so your your mom says "don't run in the driveway", so your only option is to drive in the street?" Sorry, but what we need is reduction in oil use, REAL investment in alternatibve energy sources.

We DID have a chance to do that 20 years ago. Beginning Hydro fuel projects, etc, etc,... most of those projects lost funding or were left unfunded under Bush. THAT is where our tax money needs to go..t o research to the future, not propping up the companies of the past.

OUR tax dollars are to support the average people, keep them from falling too low, ensuring that EVERYONE gets basic education and health needs met so that they can become the productive citizens this world needs, not just a bunch of people who are lucky enough to buy the right stocks.

Well put, Player!

J

Mr_Adams wrote:If you want gas prices to go down, you need to increase the supply.

The supply did not change recently... only the cost at the pump. Obviously the billions of dollars in profits collected in recent years by gas distributors was not enough.

The present supply and demand for oil won't shrivel any time soon, but the resource itself is not sustainable. So it is inevitable that change will happen. Maybe not in our lifetime, but it is in this planet's future. There may come a time when a second mortgage is required to secure enough gas to power a vehicle for a year.

Night Strike... deep water drilling did not create the Gulf accident. Short cuts and maximizing profits did and ignoring the risks to max out profits can easily be considered greed.

The damage to the Oceans extends way beyond a few crude oil leaks in the sea. Petroleum products in general are a huge contributor towards fucking up the Oceans globally and there is no quick fix. No singular government policy anywhere can repair the damage that already exists without a major change in environmental attitudes by all the major players worldwide.

But PLAYER, that's socialism/wealth distribution/Marxism/fascism/whatever-Glenn-Beck-wrote-on-the-chalkboard-yesterday!

It's really not a mystery. The only reason we do not have alternative energy sources is because it's the gov't who is trying to do it.

The main problem with alternative energy is that it's too expensive. Gov't doesn't make anything cheaper as it wastes 35 cents of every dollar is touches. The free market wastes close to 0 cents.

Who's got a better shot to make alt energy cheaper? The free market. Sure, the gov't can pretend it's cheap through subsidizing the price, but that does not change the cost.

Phatscotty wrote:It's really not a mystery. The only reason we do not have alternative energy sources is because it's the gov't who is trying to do it.

The main problem with alternative energy is that it's too expensive. Gov't doesn't make anything cheaper as it wastes 35 cents of every dollar is touches. The free market wastes close to 0 cents.

Who's got a better shot to make alt energy cheaper? The free market. Sure, the gov't can pretend it's cheap through subsidizing the price, but that does not change the cost.

Troll better, plz. Thnx.

spurgistan wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:It's really not a mystery. The only reason we do not have alternative energy sources is because it's the gov't who is trying to do it.

The main problem with alternative energy is that it's too expensive. Gov't doesn't make anything cheaper as it wastes 35 cents of every dollar is touches. The free market wastes close to 0 cents.

Who's got a better shot to make alt energy cheaper? The free market. Sure, the gov't can pretend it's cheap through subsidizing the price, but that does not change the cost.

Troll better, plz. Thnx.

The main problem with alternative energy is affordability. If nobody can afford the energy, nobody is going to buy it.

I understand some people wish to completely ignore the simplest realities of the situation.

Phatscotty wrote:Sure, the gov't can pretend it's cheap through subsidizing the price, but that does not change the cost.

So the government can reduce the costs of making the cars through tax breaks for each car made, but that doesn't change the cost of making the car?