Conquer Club

black elk speaks wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

PopeBenXVI wrote:Yes, Terri was asked by her family if she wanted to die and she nodded her head no and hinted she was scared to die. Her brother and parents were adamite about her responsiveness the whole time after her acident. That was a case of her husband (former) offing her for a million dollar policy and the courts let it happen. Her family wanted to take care of her and requested to take her in and assume all the cost themselves for her care. Her husband who was with another woman for the last ten years, would not allow it. All she needed was a feeding tube to keep living and he had it pulled and she literally starved to death from dehydration while conscious and perfectly aware of pain.

Haha.

Wrong.

First hand witness account? hmmm, can't imagine that you would come all the way to America to check in on a vegetable though. Perhaps you were on vacation to DisneyWorld and popped in since you were in the area?

I've got to be honest, I didn't really follo the story, but little of that sounds right to me. You can't legally kill a fully conscious person? And a million dollar policy on someone who's already dead?

pimpdave wrote:

jnd94 wrote:
Everyone is afraid of the unknown.

I was talking about death, not the unknown. You know what death is, right? You've seen death, right? Well, maybe not. A lot of Americans have no idea what death looks like. I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just want to keep a dialogue going.

And according to the poll, there are a number among us who do not fear death. The next part of this thread, after we get everyone who is going to reply, to reply, is to begin inquiring into WHY people do not fear death.


(in order to protect the integrity of this thread, I will refrain for the time being from offering my answer to the poll question)

That's not true. If you are alive, you do not know what death is. It is the lack of living. It's unknown.

black elk speaks wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

PopeBenXVI wrote:Yes, Terri was asked by her family if she wanted to die and she nodded her head no and hinted she was scared to die. Her brother and parents were adamite about her responsiveness the whole time after her acident. That was a case of her husband (former) offing her for a million dollar policy and the courts let it happen. Her family wanted to take care of her and requested to take her in and assume all the cost themselves for her care. Her husband who was with another woman for the last ten years, would not allow it. All she needed was a feeding tube to keep living and he had it pulled and she literally starved to death from dehydration while conscious and perfectly aware of pain.

Haha.

Wrong.

First hand witness account? hmmm, can't imagine that you would come all the way to America to check in on a vegetable though. Perhaps you were on vacation to DisneyWorld and popped in since you were in the area?

A person in a persistent vegetative state is not conscious. They cannot respond to questions or react in any meaningfull way to their surroundings. They may have a wake-sleep-cycle, but that is not consciousness. Terri's brain was turned to liquid, it did not work anymore.

Besides, when a feeding tube is removed or if someone is terminally ill they also supply enough pain-medication that the person does not notice anything anymore. I actually have witnessed that with my mother. They pump the patient so full of morfine that consciousness and pain are non-existent.

This is not a case of what you believe in but what is actual fact. Countless doctors have examined cases like these over the years and they have all reached the same conclusions. A person with PVS is completely unaware of themselves and their surroundings.

Come on. I know there are tons of Christians on this website. Please answer my poll.

Must be a taboo subject to them, unless it is someone else's life involved, like Terry S.

I do not fear death or what will happen afterwards...but I do fear the prospect of spending my final years just vegetating in a nursing home or hospice.

I suppose I would prefer to avoid death, but I certainly don't fear it. As others were arguing before, death is pretty straight forward: you cease to exist. It would suck, but it's not like a wake up in a cold sweat after dreaming about not existing.

black elk speaks wrote:

pimpdave wrote:

black elk speaks wrote:he who fears death also fears life, for they are one in the same.

Could you provide a citation for this please? I know you didn't write that yourself.

I have no citation. The concept is universal. Think of the yin and yang.

But yin and yang are opposites, it's a duality concept, not a singular one.
The same with life and death - opposites.

Yes I do fear death, which isn't surprising since I also fear unconsiousness.

Minister Masket wrote:

black elk speaks wrote:

pimpdave wrote:

black elk speaks wrote:he who fears death also fears life, for they are one in the same.

Could you provide a citation for this please? I know you didn't write that yourself.

I have no citation. The concept is universal. Think of the yin and yang.

But yin and yang are opposites, it's a duality concept, not a singular one.
The same with life and death - opposites.

Yes I do fear death, which isn't surprising since I also fear unconsiousness.

I don't see it that way. Death is simply the end of our perceivable life. We don't know what is beyond it like we don't know about what came before it. Regarding yin and yang, one cannot be without the other. Light casts shadow and shadow is cast against where there would be light.

I find that fear of the unknown is really not practical since we, as a species, know so little in the grand scheme of things.

black elk speaks wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

PopeBenXVI wrote:Yes, Terri was asked by her family if she wanted to die and she nodded her head no and hinted she was scared to die. Her brother and parents were adamite about her responsiveness the whole time after her acident. That was a case of her husband (former) offing her for a million dollar policy and the courts let it happen. Her family wanted to take care of her and requested to take her in and assume all the cost themselves for her care. Her husband who was with another woman for the last ten years, would not allow it. All she needed was a feeding tube to keep living and he had it pulled and she literally starved to death from dehydration while conscious and perfectly aware of pain.

Haha.

Wrong.

First hand witness account? hmmm, can't imagine that you would come all the way to America to check in on a vegetable though. Perhaps you were on vacation to DisneyWorld and popped in since you were in the area?

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I never claimed I was there? I did however listen intently to a couple christian radio stations often during that time and her family were on a couple explaining the case so I am quite familiar with it. She was not unconcious until after they started starving her to death. I sence a lack of compassion for life on this forum. Just because she did not contribute to the GDP does not mean she was not alive and aware.

PopeBenXVI wrote: I'm not sure what you are talking about. I never claimed I was there? I did however listen intently to a couple christian radio stations often during that time and her family were on a couple explaining the case so I am quite familiar with it. She was not unconcious until after they started starving her to death. I sence a lack of compassion for life on this forum. Just because she did not contribute to the GDP does not mean she was not alive and aware.

Sorry pope. My comments were directed towards boori. He, being for the Netherlands or wherever seems to be so in tuned with the Schivo case that he was so inclined to inform you of how wrong your understanding of the situation is.

I generally tend to think that the family should have some say in what it best for their daughter and the fact that her "husband" had a million dollar life insurance policy and the say so regarding the termination of her life comes to me as highly suspect.

black elk speaks wrote:

PopeBenXVI wrote: I'm not sure what you are talking about. I never claimed I was there? I did however listen intently to a couple christian radio stations often during that time and her family were on a couple explaining the case so I am quite familiar with it. She was not unconcious until after they started starving her to death. I sence a lack of compassion for life on this forum. Just because she did not contribute to the GDP does not mean she was not alive and aware.

Sorry pope. My comments were directed towards boori. He, being for the Netherlands or wherever seems to be so in tuned with the Schivo case that he was so inclined to inform you of how wrong your understanding of the situation is.

Actually, I've followed the case about as much as anyone else could've who wasn't actually part of the case.

And yes, his understanding of the case is completely wrong. Simply because Terri Schiavo wasn't concious. Her condition, according to both the doctors her family selected and the ones her husband selected, and according to the one the court selected, meant that she was completely unaware of things. This is a medical fact.

She was alive, but not aware. Her brain was turned to liquid.

I generally tend to think that the family should have some say in what it best for their daughter and the fact that her "husband" had a million dollar life insurance policy and the say so regarding the termination of her life comes to me as highly suspect.

Hell, best for her daughter would've been exactly what has happened. There was absolutely no chance of recovering.

I am not aware of how a brain can turn to "liquid" perhapes you could explain that?

At the time all this was going on (and prior to) she was aware and somewhat responsive. Their were definate questions by family members who visited her on a weekly (her parents almost daily) basis. Doctors have certain criteria for "brain dead" but that does not mean you are dead.

When the governement says you are legally blind you are not always completly blind either. You are still able to see light and often people and shapes when within a few yards away. I would'nt want you driving but you are not always totallly blind.

PopeBenXVI wrote: At the time all this was going on (and prior to) she was aware and somewhat responsive. Their were definate questions by family members who visited her on a weekly (her parents almost daily) basis. Doctors have certain criteria for "brain dead" but that does not mean you are dead.

Doctors also have criteria for PVS (Persistent vegatative state) and those do mean you are not aware or responsive enough.

Terri did not have enough brain left to be aware. The body still lived but there was noone there anymore.

Snorri1234 wrote:

PopeBenXVI wrote: At the time all this was going on (and prior to) she was aware and somewhat responsive. Their were definate questions by family members who visited her on a weekly (her parents almost daily) basis. Doctors have certain criteria for "brain dead" but that does not mean you are dead.

Doctors also have criteria for PVS (Persistent vegatative state) and those do mean you are not aware or responsive enough.

Terri did not have enough brain left to be aware. The body still lived but there was noone there anymore.

So if her brain was liquid, does that make for vegetable soup?

Good One BES... I'll take wonton!

So how does it turn to liquid? That was never answered?

PopeBenXVI wrote:how does it turn to liquid?

Why don't you tell us?

Snorri1234 wrote:

PopeBenXVI wrote: At the time all this was going on (and prior to) she was aware and somewhat responsive. Their were definate questions by family members who visited her on a weekly (her parents almost daily) basis. Doctors have certain criteria for "brain dead" but that does not mean you are dead.

Doctors also have criteria for PVS (Persistent vegatative state) and those do mean you are not aware or responsive enough.

Terri did not have enough brain left to be aware. The body still lived but there was noone there anymore.

"responsive enough"...you prove my point. responsive enough for who? Is it for her parents who said she responded to them and sometimes smiled when they came to visit her or the court that never saw her and sentenced her to death by starvation?

Their criteria does not mean you are brain dead and their is always mis-diagnois going on. Throughout history doctors proclaimed people dead and later found the insides of coffins with scratch marks inside from after they woke up. People were not always embalmed you know. Better be safe than sorry and let the family take care of her like they asked.

PopeBenXVI wrote: "responsive enough"...you prove my point. responsive enough for who? Is it for her parents who said she responded to them and sometimes smiled when they came to visit her

I know the parents say she responded, but really they were imagining it due to the grief things like this cause. She was unaware and could only react to very basic things.

Their criteria does not mean you are brain dead and their is always mis-diagnois going on.

When all the doctors agree with the diagnosis and autopsy confirmed it, it is safe to say that this was not a case of mis-diagnosis.

Better be safe than sorry and let the family take care of her like they asked.

Perhaps, but why do that when she wouldn't have wanted that?

I'm glad she made clear to you that she did not want to live. Thats also what her "husband' said even though he had no proof. Well at least both your stories back each other up on what she wanted.

He was also known to beat her when they were married and the whole family knew it. Her at home accident was also questionable circumstances.

My mother gave all her money away, didn't pay taxes for two years, sold the house, took her nieces on a great vacation to Hawaii to visit the Portuguese side of the family, then died in debt up to her ears. She died happy, and the bank ate the debt. She knew it was comiing and knew life was the real challenge.

So she intentionally racked up debt with no intention of having it paid for. Thats too bad because someone paid for it.

The bank ate it. Fortunately, you don't inherit a net debt.

My dad died in a VA hospital drying out from alcoholism. He died in his sleep and I believe was relieved to be out of pain. Before his death he exprfessed no fear or trepidation. We all think he had come to terms with death in the South Pacific during WWII and never looked back.

mpjh wrote:The bank ate it. Fortunately, you don't inherit a net debt.

Those evil banks. How dare they make profit!! It's a good thing there are people out there to take advantage of the system.