Conquer Club

MW..

At first glance, the aesthetic of the map doesn't look balanced...

An olden kind of map as a background, with high opacitated clear routes and army circles doesn't work for me..

Just my 2 cents.

SK...

Ok - replaced the background with something similar to the lines.

Looks nice, it's come a long way from where you started. Glad you didn't give up yet? You may want to consider decreasing the vividness of the color of the attack routes. Since there are different colors it almost feels like there is a different meaning for each color.

EDIT: i see it, sorry... the blue routes are over water. no gameplay effect, but it does work nicely. Perhaps adding some color to the background would make that work better... or maybe not... I think i've helped as much as i can so far, it'll need to progress before i can make any more suggs. Nice so far!

This map finally looks like it's beginning to take shape and find some direction of its own.

I'm not a fan of the glow used around the army numbers, but like the blocky background style that have been used in the last update.

Contrary to the opinion of the mapmaker, I have nothing against him, or his idea. Once the Drafting Room criteria have been met, and if the map gathers the support of the wider community, then I will gladly move the map forward.

Drafting Room Guidelines

'Drafting Room'

• To be considered a Working Draft a project must be more than just an idea; a Draft should have a clear thematic focus, a plan for how the gameplay will work, and a basic image which should include:
  • 1. Territory Labels - temporary names or numbers will suffice, and are always open to change.
    2. Borders/Paths/Impassables - it should be made clear where territories do/do not connect.
    3. Bonus Areas - where combinations/groups of territories will award a bonus, this should be indicated on the map.
    4. Legend - speculative bonus values and explanations of any attack rules or gameplay features.
  Draft images should not be larger than 630x600px (small image) or 840x800px (large image).
  
  While in the drafting room, it is expected that a mapmaker will demonstrate:
  • a. significant knowledge of graphics tools and techniques,
    b. the willingness to consider and respond appropriately to critical feedback
    c. the ability to make multiple changes based on ongoing feedback
    d. a solid understanding of the Foundry standards and process.

A Draft will not be considered for promotion to the Main Foundry without the support of CC users. If a map is not considered by the Foundry community to offer something original and/or interesting in terms of gameplay, graphics, and theme, its production will not be encouraged.

Before being moved on to the next stage of development in the mapmaker must have a plan for the production of the map, and present key map information and updates in a manner that is user friendly and consistent with the foundry standards. Once these criteria have been met, the Working Draft will receive the first of the Foundry Brands:

ok, well i personally offer my support of this map as is. I think CC needs more classic gameplay maps focused on chokepoints and such as this map is. I personally like the glow effect he has used on the army circles a lot (sorry, Benn, but i guess it's a personal preference thing) as this conveys his theme. So it seems all he's looking for is support, right?

I've been in here a bunch, and i'm sure it's a big encouragement to Wong that Mr. Benn has posted in here again. So, who else likes it? if not, WHY?

You seem to have competing elements in your map---namely sharp and crisp edges vs fuzzy glowing orbs---and this is distracting. I'm a fan of the sharpness that you've got---I'd continue in that direction.


--Andy

Personally, i think the "fuzzy glowing orbs" denote places of interest BECAUSE they stand out from the sharpness of the rest of the map. As another angle on this, there aren't really any fuzzy maps on cc.... maybe it's time for one.....

I guess you could look at it that way---but honestly, there must be a better way to signify things so they blend well with the map, instead of detract.


--Andy

agreed. And your opinion has just a little bit more weight than mine. I'll leave the decision making to the actual map maker

i still like the fuzzy circles denoting the terits.

All opinions are still valid though---I'm just point out that mixing elements, though sometimes to great effect---usually doesn't.


--Andy

OK - I'll think of something... I really like the aura effect (y' know like people) but am happy to go sharp if that will get it out. Will think of a sharp element that fits the map.
Perhaps sharp small circles for army numbers but colored and with a thin sharp colored band around them. Or a sharp little flag

This is it....I'm not saying its perfect but is it still a draft?

Version with less white Version with pentagons not circles Faces version Can this move on yet? Let me know if any of these deserve to move on

And one more option - the grey city

i will do the xml for ya

Thanks Killer. Do I send you a file for small and large and what format?
Should we wait before this gets draft approved? This grey city works best.

Merciless Wong wrote:Thanks Killer. Do I send you a file for small and large and what format?
Should we wait before this gets draft approved? This grey city works best.

Click image to enlarge.

yes lets wait till we get the draft stamp

Continents
Academia-Library, Masonic Hall,King's College, University Ferry
Theocracy-Cloisters, Old Church, Orphanage, Foreign Missionaries
Radicals-Exiles,Farms
The Poor-Slums and Squatters
Commerce-Trade Ferries,Fishing Fleet, Docks, Organized Crime, Warehouses, Market, The Tower
Middle Class-Barracks,Nightlife,Trade Gate, Hospital, Old Town, Craft Quarter, Farmers Market
Upper Class- Foreign Powers, Civil Service, Diplomats, Gentry, Courts, The Plaza, Elite Guard, Parade Grounds, Fixers & Socialites
The Masses-Speaker's Corner, Sheriff's & Baliffs, City Council, West Side, The Park, Park Row, Stone Fort, Old Gate, The Hill, East Side

I'm more partial to the white background (gives a stronger contrast, but it isn't overwhelming which is nice), and also the circular army shadows over the pentagons.


--Andy

Merciless Wong wrote:Thanks Killer. Do I send you a file for small and large and what format?
Should we wait before this gets draft approved? This grey city works best.

Click image to enlarge.

I think this is the better of the images you've posted on this page, although like Andy, I prefer the circles to the pentagons or random smiley-shapes!

The map looks clean and crisp which is good, although I'm not fully convinced of the "story" the map is trying to tell... something about influence? I don;t get how the quote fits in with the map??

Your wrap-attack route is unclear, and could do with something other than the legend note.

As far as XML goes, that is usually left until a map is on the brink of the final forge, as things are likely to change a lot between he start and the finish.

MrBenn wrote:

Merciless Wong wrote:Thanks Killer. Do I send you a file for small and large and what format?
Should we wait before this gets draft approved? This grey city works best.

Click image to enlarge.

I think this is the better of the images you've posted on this page, although like Andy, I prefer the circles to the pentagons or random smiley-shapes!

The map looks clean and crisp which is good, although I'm not fully convinced of the "story" the map is trying to tell... something about influence? I don;t get how the quote fits in with the map??

Your wrap-attack route is unclear, and could do with something other than the legend note.

As far as XML goes, that is usually left until a map is on the brink of the final forge, as things are likely to change a lot between he start and the finish.

tru

Mr Benn,

On changes:
Will move to circles on the map you liked. Will do something about the wrap around graphically. The map represents factions/districts influencing other factions and districts. It seems obvious 'foreign powers' could influence a district called the 'trade gate'.

Done as of v16

On theme:

I'm not sure what kind of strategy or political theory background you have so I am going to give some basic information. If I state anything you already know, its because I want to be sure you get the 'story' behind the map.

The "Prince of the City" map is about city politics. You win issues by deploying supporters, controlling key groups, using links between groups to get more groups on your side, building coalitions of groups with related interests and controlling strategically important groups. Politicians 'fight' over areas by promoting or doing favors to your supporters and buying support with the right policies and appeals. Think Saul Alinsky and his "rules for radicals", think Mayor Daley and Chicago machine politics. Think about the Republican coalition of the religious right (theocracy), business (commerce), the rich (upper class) and parts of the middle class. You could say that politics is like war and battles are key votes, key appointments, nasty battles in the press. Your soldiers are your supporters and territory interest groups or districts you control. The map represents key districts and groups and how they influence one another. It takes some artistic license where those groups are located to correctly show how these groups influence one another.

Machiavelli is a very famous figure in strategy and in politics. He wrote a very famous politics/strategy book called the Prince. He wrote the book as an advisory to 'the Prince', a ruler of an Italian city state. He advised the ruler of a city to be very ruthless and made observations on political strategy. He was arguably one of the first realists in political science. His surname yielded the modern political words “Macchiavelli” (a person of acute and scheming intelligence) and Machiavellianism (the use of cunning and deceit in politics or generally). His quote seems fitting for the map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavelli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellianism

The term 'Prince of the City' has multiple meanings. It could be the actual ruler of a third world, fantasy or historical city. It can be a reference to Machiavelli's book. Plus in American political slang it can be a successful mayor. Mayor Gulliani's biography is titled "Prince of the City". This all fits very well with the names.

I hope that this satisfies you that the map has a very well thought out theme. Its just subtle and doesn't involve special rules.

On the consistency of your reviews:

At this point, I have to ask if you are applying the consistent criteria you cited in your earlier post or giving your personal views. If I look at your review of the Cities of the World Map, you liked it even though it had attack lines and some similarities to classic. You absolutely thrashed my efforts saying attack lines are unclear and my map being too similar to classic.

This map is clear and has forum supporters. I have fixed your and others graphical commentary and am no longer working in Paint. I appreciate your thematic input, but would not like to see it as a blocker for getting out of draft. Can I ask what criteria you are citing in keeping this as a draft?

I didn't see "Mr Benn must like the theme so he doesn't make sarcastic comments" in the Conquer Club criteria.

And 'Prince of the CIty' was also used as a reference to a book/movie on a corrupt cop being 'Prince of the City' and was associated with "Vampire: Prince of the CIty", a board game... in case someone prefers to see the map as a crime or fantasy setting.

If you still don't get the theme I can switch the quotes box to have 2 quotes:

I'm not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it.
Niccolo Machiavelli

Politics is the womb in which war develops.
Karl Von Clausewitz

Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.
Mao Tse-Tung (1893 - 1976)

Or and I think this is over the top... I could add somewhere in the map ("Lines are attack lines representing links between political groups critical to controlling the city. Control all groups to win the game!")

The information you just posted made this map 1000x more interesting.

See what you can do about conveying some of that information on the map! Not in paragraph form, but somehow incorporate the themes you are dealing with into the layout or the game play you are creating. The machiavelli quote is a great start by the way. Now that there is a reason for this map (something many current cartographers seem to miss completely) there is also a reason to play on it!

Try to show a little more patience with the development though. Repeatedly asking the mods to move the map forward is annoying and therefore will be a detriment to gaining support. Look through the drafting rooms and you will see many well developed maps that have been around longer than yours. This is a process that takes great patience and several months, so you have to be willing to wait for comments and advice sometimes.

I have to give some context. To be fair I will quote Mr Benn himself. Rest of this banter is in Mr Benn's England map. Criticism of this map has been on the harsh side, I have no way of knowing how unbiased this process is but when your map idea started out as a 'bastardization" of a map much liked by the evaluator, some politicking is necessary to keep things moving.

MrBenn wrote:Right, let me get this straight... My comment about a map having to be unique was in reference to the Rio Slums map draft, that forced the classic gameplay into a map of Rio. If you want to read the whole post in it's proper context, then you may do so by clicking here.

The criticism I leveled at this version of Merciless Wong's map is contained within the following spoiler....

Spoiler

MrBenn wrote:You'd be better off starting with your own graphics and idea from scratch, rather than bastardising the combined effort of several mapmakers...

MrBenn wrote:Seriously, you'd be better off coming up with something a) original, and b) decent.

MrBenn wrote:I get that you're trying to produce a slightly amended/enlarged version of the classic map, but I'm really not convinced this is the right way to go about it... The map has a vague 'City' theme, but doesn't look or feel anything like a city map would - it looks incredibly look a poor knock-off of a shapeless map.

As it currently stands, there is nothing to give me an indication of what you are hoping to achieve, nor can I see the glimmer of a butterfly inside its cocoon...

MrBenn wrote:

Merciless Wong wrote:Look, I'm not likely to bother with this map if Mr. Benn as cartographer is dead set against anything that might be an alternative to his 'classic' efforts. I'd just like to see him openly admit he's suffering from 'not invented by me' syndrome.

Firstly, let's keep the flaming and baiting out of the forum.

Secondly, I have no idea what you mean about my "classic efforts", and I'm not dead-set against anything, unless it is of poor quality...

I stand by my earlier comment: "I get that you're trying to produce a slightly amended/enlarged version of the classic map, but I'm really not convinced this is the right way to go about it..." The best way of exploring the idea of a slightly amended/enlarged version of classic would be to have some discussion about it, rather than producing a knock-off the existing Classic Shapes map.

... and was simply my reaction to what I referred to as the "bastardisation" of Classic Art. I may have been a bit harsh in my choice of words, but Twill accurately summarised the sentiment of that particular map in his newsletter interview:

Twill Interview

Q: What is your best memory as Community Manager?

A: The Star Chamber. That was the singularly most moving experiences any Communtiy Manager could have asked for, in the best and worst of ways. Thank you Gentlemen.

Q: What is your favourite map of all time?

A: I'm going to go with World 2.1, but Classic Art will always have a special place in my heart. I don't think anybody understands what went into that (see above "favourite moment").

None of this is relevant to the discussion about this map, but it needs to be put here, where all the fuss has been made.

-----------update------------------------
As of 16 April, this map is not getting reviewed - not much I can do at this point, I've responded on theme and not got an answer. Without objective criteria I can't do much. I suspect that this map is doomed for the dead projects, I'm not able to move without feedback and I can't force the draft stamp guy to read it before it gets killed for insufficient updates.

1. Wrap has been changed

2. "The map looks clean and crisp which is good, although I'm not fully convinced of the "story" the map is trying to tell... something about influence? I don;t get how the quote fits in with the map??" - supplied response and the option of changing quotes if necessary, but don't have Mr Benn's view on that.

I like the idea, I just sort of have no great sugestions but here are some.

• 1 City council should be it's own bonus. It should also boarder more of the upper class territories.
  2 organized crime should be it's own bonus also.
  3 Add some bombardments (like Kings collage to old church and exiles to city councel.)
  4 (for a CA) Make this an advanced draft, it is good!