Conquer Club

Third Crusade Statistic
kiron 50 finished games score 44% win
xiangwang 104 finished game score 51% win

now counting only games where you play together like team

kiron and xiangwang 39 finished games(8 player games) 26 wins 66% wins (kiron 38% , xiangwang 28%)

other who participiate in these 39-- 13 wins 34% wins
josh J 1 win (2,56%)
Egel 2 win (5,84%)
deng hiao ping 1 win(2,56%)
alvi3732 1 win(2,56%)
cometripas 1 win(2,56%)
swampdonk 1 win (2,56%)
rodion 1 win(2,56%)
gonakuruto 1 win(2,56%)
100mates 1 win(2,56%)
mco5o25 1 win(2,56%)
killface 1 win(2,56%)
jsnyder748 1 win(2,56%)
---------------
now in these statistic its show that you together like team ,even if we put individual results have 10 time more better score then other 12 players who manage to win game where they play against you two.
So chances for some other player to win a game when you two play are 2,56%.
now i dont understand why you dont play in doubles games,instead 8 player games, then all these will not be so suspicios, and will not look like you play team in non team games.

Seulessliathan wrote:just saved for the record

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=187039&start=24

mc05025 wrote:LOL. First of all they are not roomates.

As I have played many games with both of them I think I know better that anyone how they are playing and in addition I know how to play third crusade freestyle.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=187039&start=33

Kiron wrote:We have ALWAYS maintained that we are housemates (or roommates, is there a difference?).

Anyone beside me who fears at least one of these statements might be a wrong?

IF they are roommates and ALWAYS maintained so, how can it be that a player who claims to know them and who had played many games with them doesn´t know they are roommates?
IF they are NOT roommates, why does Kiron say so?

, I noticed that earlier but got sidetracked and forgot to mention this. I have to infer that in this case, MC doesn't know their living arrangements, then again, who the hell knows what the truth is. I suppose an IP check can determine whether or not they are in the same house, no?

There are at least 3 of them in the same place:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=162598&p=3557840&hilit=kiron#p3557644

qwert wrote:Third Crusade Statistic
kiron 50 finished games score 44% win
xiangwang 104 finished game score 51% win

now counting only games where you play together like team

kiron and xiangwang 39 finished games(8 player games) 26 wins 66% wins (kiron 38% , xiangwang 28%)

other who participiate in these 39-- 13 wins 34% wins
josh J 1 win (2,56%)
Egel 2 win (5,84%)
deng hiao ping 1 win(2,56%)
alvi3732 1 win(2,56%)
cometripas 1 win(2,56%)
swampdonk 1 win (2,56%)
rodion 1 win(2,56%)
gonakuruto 1 win(2,56%)
100mates 1 win(2,56%)
mco5o25 1 win(2,56%)
killface 1 win(2,56%)
jsnyder748 1 win(2,56%)
---------------
now in these statistic its show that you together like team ,even if we put individual results have 10 time more better score then other 12 players who manage to win game where they play against you two.
So chances for some other player to win a game when you two play are 2,56%.
now i dont understand why you dont play in doubles games,instead 8 player games, then all these will not be so suspicios, and will not look like you play team in non team games.

These, um, these are not very good statistics. You're not comparing like for like, you're not accounting for a whole bunch of other factors, and your percentage figures are mostly misleading.

I think you have to accept that this accusation can't be "proved". The statistics and facts aren't there (IMO), but there is enough circumstantial evidence to justify a block on them playing together. That seems pretty clear.

OK, since they claim they are such a good players, ive looked at their games a little:
[game]12395303[/game]- xiangwang hit everything around Vatican, but Vatican! he even hit one blue territory, just to make sure blue doesnt take over Vatican(2013-02-28 07:51:40 - xiangwang assaulted Apulia from Lombardy and conquered it from Private D)... he also knows Kiron is holding the objective, but plays dumb in chat:

2013-02-28 07:53:16 - xiangwang: sorry, hit u by accident blue on that last hit
2013-02-28 07:54:19 - xiangwang: blue, cyan hit u last turn, so u can help me now? XD

lastly, this is fog game ffs, and two of them are playing it from same room?!

[game]10769124[/game]- this one is a gem ofc... its not even foggy, its sunny! and here is the precious comment:
2012-03-18 20:38:49 - xiangwang: nice yellow, so used to defending spain so lightly that i forget granada could be attacked. Well I guess u could've gone for the vatican too
im trying to comprehend how stupid someone needs to be to accept this sentence as valid one?! and that same sentence comes from a guy who has claimed on this very same subject how good he is in third crusade freestyle?!

[game]7370815[/game]- Kiron started his turn, make a move like he is going after objective, then after hitting Krak des Chevaliers he is failing even to advance his troops for 5 seconds, in which time xiangwang start his move and winning the game! now, im not good freestyle player, ill never will be one, but ive seen good freestylers taking 7-8 territories for 5 seconds... and even though im not good freestyle player im still able to log out, log in with different credentials and click start within 5 seconds...also, i have never seen their moves overlapping, so while they might be different players, its just possible they are playing from same computer? and doing that in FOG games, when they are starting moves in 10 seconds apart?!

Tenebrus wrote:

qwert wrote:Third Crusade Statistic
kiron 50 finished games score 44% win
xiangwang 104 finished game score 51% win

now counting only games where you play together like team

kiron and xiangwang 39 finished games(8 player games) 26 wins 66% wins (kiron 38% , xiangwang 28%)

other who participiate in these 39-- 13 wins 34% wins
josh J 1 win (2,56%)
Egel 2 win (5,84%)
deng hiao ping 1 win(2,56%)
alvi3732 1 win(2,56%)
cometripas 1 win(2,56%)
swampdonk 1 win (2,56%)
rodion 1 win(2,56%)
gonakuruto 1 win(2,56%)
100mates 1 win(2,56%)
mco5o25 1 win(2,56%)
killface 1 win(2,56%)
jsnyder748 1 win(2,56%)
---------------
now in these statistic its show that you together like team ,even if we put individual results have 10 time more better score then other 12 players who manage to win game where they play against you two.
So chances for some other player to win a game when you two play are 2,56%.
now i dont understand why you dont play in doubles games,instead 8 player games, then all these will not be so suspicios, and will not look like you play team in non team games.

These, um, these are not very good statistics. You're not comparing like for like, you're not accounting for a whole bunch of other factors, and your percentage figures are mostly misleading.

I think you have to accept that this accusation can't be "proved". The statistics and facts aren't there (IMO), but there is enough circumstantial evidence to justify a block on them playing together. That seems pretty clear.

ok, can you tell me where i make statistic mistakes with %?

Kiron and xiangwang were in all the 39 games, the other players were not, so of course they won less game !
Anyway freakns examples are really good, i like the first, so obvious...

freakns wrote:OK, since they claim they are such a good players, ive looked at their games a little:
[game]12395303[/game]- xiangwang hit everything around Vatican, but Vatican! he even hit one blue territory, just to make sure blue doesnt take over Vatican(2013-02-28 07:51:40 - xiangwang assaulted Apulia from Lombardy and conquered it from Private D)... he also knows Kiron is holding the objective, but plays dumb in chat:

2013-02-28 07:53:16 - xiangwang: sorry, hit u by accident blue on that last hit
2013-02-28 07:54:19 - xiangwang: blue, cyan hit u last turn, so u can help me now? XD

lastly, this is fog game ffs, and two of them are playing it from same room?!

[game]10769124[/game]- this one is a gem ofc... its not even foggy, its sunny! and here is the precious comment:
2012-03-18 20:38:49 - xiangwang: nice yellow, so used to defending spain so lightly that i forget granada could be attacked. Well I guess u could've gone for the vatican too
im trying to comprehend how stupid someone needs to be to accept this sentence as valid one?! and that same sentence comes from a guy who has claimed on this very same subject how good he is in third crusade freestyle?!

[game]7370815[/game]- Kiron started his turn, make a move like he is going after objective, then after hitting Krak des Chevaliers he is failing even to advance his troops for 5 seconds, in which time xiangwang start his move and winning the game! now, im not good freestyle player, ill never will be one, but ive seen good freestylers taking 7-8 territories for 5 seconds... and even though im not good freestyle player im still able to log out, log in with different credentials and click start within 5 seconds...also, i have never seen their moves overlapping, so while they might be different players, its just possible they are playing from same computer? and doing that in FOG games, when they are starting moves in 10 seconds apart?!

There are so many reasons for this to happen. We ARE NOT PERFECT, we do make mistakes! Actually Xiangwang makes a LOT of mistakes, it just takes some diplomacy to recover, but in cases like these, well you can't recover. You are just happening to cherry pick, which is not exactly fair.

Regarding 3rd example, I remember that, the internet was laggy, what am I suppose to do, i did distract him lol, not my fault the internet failed on me. The point is THERE ARE SO MANY factors that determine winning a game and you DO NOT need to be perfect to win, there are rooms for error. It just happens sometimes those errors are not recoverable, but within a game, you have a bit of room to make mistakes.

P.S. I have no clue why MC said we are not housemates or how he justifies that statement, we never met in RL nor have i told him otherwise

Yup so many mistake, like Kiron posting with Xianwang's account?

There are so many reasons for this to happen. We ARE NOT PERFECT, we do make mistakes! Actually Xiangwang makes a LOT of mistakes, it just takes some diplomacy to recover, but in cases like these, well you can't recover. You are just happening to cherry pick, which is not exactly fair.

Regarding 3rd example, I remember that, the internet was laggy, what am I suppose to do, i did distract him lol, not my fault the internet failed on me. The point is THERE ARE SO MANY factors that determine winning a game and you DO NOT need to be perfect to win, there are rooms for error. It just happens sometimes those errors are not recoverable, but within a game, you have a bit of room to make mistakes.

P.S. I have no clue why MC said we are not housemates or how he justifies that statement, we never met in RL nor have i told him otherwise

hey, realized, i made a mistake. this is xiangwang's account, he left it open, didn't realize it. He told me to write something.

haha, that was the immediate thing that sprang to my mind. What a laugh. Sussed or what!

xiangwang wrote:hey, realized, i made a mistake. this is xiangwang's account, he left it open, didn't realize it.

Chariot of Fire wrote:haha, that was the immediate thing that sprang to my mind. What a laugh. Sussed or what!

Wow, Kiron was an idiot. He forgot to log me off first. Anyways, what kiron original wrote was true. I do make mistakes (and so does he ).

You two are a piece of work!! Another reason why a complete block from these two playing with each other, period!!

This is getting interesting.

Do you share a computer or does each of you own one?

Excellent questions Rodion.

Oops?

ETA: If you share a computer - ever, then you have to be barred from the same games. How can you maintain fog if you are sharing the same computer sometimes?

Rodion wrote:This is getting interesting.

Do you share a computer or does each of you own one?

King Achilles already asked us that question. We have 1 common desktop in the house in the main living room. We also have our own laptops. Kiron was using the common desktop when i was logged in checking the forums (we never look at each other's games, it's unsporty nor do we need to, we can predict where most troops are anyways). He forgot to log me off

P.S. It's already been established we are not multis.

Anyways, this is getting off topic. Chariot's case relies on the fact that

A. We are perfect and CANNOT make mistakes
B. Our win rates playing together are significantly higher than playing alone
C. We have intention to cheat and play as a team


Regarding

A. This is wrong on so many levels that I won't bother answering it
B. It's already shown that they are not statistically different
C. This cannot be proven, and the one time we made a deal was based on misunderstanding of the rules

And if you take turns on the common desktop, has there never been a situation where Kiron/you forgets to log out completely before you sit down and take your turn? Have you really never seen fog from both of your perspectives?

It's really hard to believe that you both ensure that level of care about the issue - I know I wouldn't be that fascist about it with a room-mate. And it's difficult for you to claim to be when you're obviously lax enough with it to accidentally post from each other's account.

Given all that - can you come up with a reason why you shouldn't be barred from playing together?

Tenebrus wrote:And if you take turns on the common desktop, has there never been a situation where Kiron/you forgets to log out completely before you sit down and take your turn? Have you really never seen fog from both of your perspectives?

It's really hard to believe that you both ensure that level of care about the issue - I know I wouldn't be that fascist about it with a room-mate. And it's difficult for you to claim to be when you're obviously lax enough with it to accidentally post from each other's account.

Given all that - can you come up with a reason why you shouldn't be barred from playing together?

We usually take great care, this instance was an instance of forum posting so we won't have the game menu screen to remind us who is actually logged in. Also if there EVER was a case, one forgets to log off, then we would realize it's someone else's account based on the game screen where ur name is highlighted before u enter the map. I know I would log off immediately and I would assume Kiron would do the same. It's no fun looking at each other's screens in fog anyways, because a fun part is guessing where troops are, and that takes it away.

That's what I would say in your place, but put yourself in other people's shoes. It's hard to believe that you never look over Kiron's shoulder, or vice versa. That you never forget to completely log out. That an unfair advantage is never given.

I don't think for a minute you guys are systematically farming or cheating, but anyone who plays with you can't be sure and there's no way to guarantee you're not getting a subtle advantage because of it. Hard to see any other right answer than barring from you playing together. If you're both as good as I think you are, it'll be fine.

Caught with both hands in the Cookie jar..

'We usually take great care...' Careful not to get caught, more like - Well you fucked that one up.

Kiron , Rank = CHEATERER

Tenebrus wrote:That's what I would say in your place, but put yourself in other people's shoes. It's hard to believe that you never look over Kiron's shoulder, or vice versa. That you never forget to completely log out. That an unfair advantage is never given.

I don't think for a minute you guys are systematically farming or cheating, but anyone who plays with you can't be sure and there's no way to guarantee you're not getting a subtle advantage because of it. Hard to see any other right answer than barring from you playing together. If you're both as good as I think you are, it'll be fine.

Even if that would be the case, and the moderators view it that way, then we would just stop play FOG games together, seeing each other's map have no impact on Sunny games.

Regarding FOG games, one of the fun aspect is guessing, Kiron and I are competitive, this adds another level to attempt to outplay each other. Looking at each other's map takes the fun away, we have no incentive to do that when we can almost accurately guess most of the deployments (MC can attest to that)

And maybe that'd do it, although it still doesn't help with people feeling like you play by different rules with each other than against other people (no backstabbing for example). It also doesn't address that it can be really important to know when a player in a 24 hour fs game is going to take their turns. There's other advantages you could get even in sunny games.

I think that you can probably see why people can't be sure - why play with that cloud over you, and with people feeling like there's an injustice going on. Do you really need to play against each other in multiplayer games? No-one's stopping you playing dubs, trips or quads together if you want to hang out online.

Tenebrus wrote:And maybe that'd do it, although it still doesn't help with people feeling like you play by different rules with each other than against other people (no backstabbing for example). It also doesn't address that it can be really important to know when a player in a 24 hour fs game is going to take their turns. There's other advantages you could get even in sunny games.

I think that you can probably see why people can't be sure - why play with that cloud over you, and with people feeling like there's an injustice going on. Do you really need to play against each other in multiplayer games? No-one's stopping you playing dubs, trips or quads together if you want to hang out online.

We do backstab (only when we know the other side can't retaliate properly), I have kicked Kiron to the other side of the map before knowing he can't retaliate and vice versa. We don't attack each other if we know we won't have overwhelming victory or ally support because we know how to defend ourselves and it seems like a futile effort being bogged down into an unproductive war while other players race towards the objective.

We spend enough time online that most of the time it doesn't matter so we know when most people play.

We already addressed the dubs, trips, and quads problem, We like to play against each other, it's more challenging. we also like diplomacy, because I admit, my win rates DROPS when there are less players bc I can't use the time to maneuvre myself into a favorable position or if I make mistakes, I have less time to recover when there are less players. Also, it's been established that I can only win a certain % of games, I'm not going to play settings where I don't at least break even in points when my win/loss tally comes up. Playing dubs 4 player freestyle is just as hard as playing 8 players freestyle if not harder and we get rewarded with 1/2 the points if not less, but lose the same with a loss.

P.S. When starting a game, an advantage is already given based on map settings. People play with friends/clan mates all the time, I have no clue whether they backstab or not. Overall, the bonus is the same.

Say if person X and Y are clanmates/friends and they play many singles 8 player freestyle or seq games together. Person X wins 20% of his games without person Y present and then wins 21% with person Y present. Person Y wins 15% of games in 8 player without person X present and wins 17% with Person X present. Would people accuse them of cheating?

Yeah, but you have to balance the benefit to 2 players out of x thousand in playing against each other vs tainting the gameplay of a large number of players who play against you both and can't be sure that you aren't cheating.

I get that it sucks, but you have to see it from other people's perspective.