Conquer Club

I read a coupla Star Wars comics I quite enjoyed, all well outside the main story line - and I once played in a Star Wars roleplay campaign, again far outside the main settings, which was great fun - but I am not a fan of any of the movies.

DirtyDishSoap wrote:I feel like I've had a more invested time in it, with the games the occasional book, growing up with the originals and the prequels (not that I'm defending the latter), but when Disney took over the reigns and released The Force Awakens, I was...Really meh about it? The Last Jedi is released afterwards and it's clearly a political correctness type fucking movie that blew my head off. The film itself, plot wise, is garbage. The film adding in random purple haired girl, Rey the Mary Sue, Finn the token black guy and Rose Binks, who's somehow on par with Jar Jar is where I'm drawing a lot of ire.

You can create a shitty film like the prequels but at least it was world building. It built upon Anakin and Sidious story, character and motivations. In the new movies, there's almost no world building, at all.

An interesting take- you actually feel that Anakin in episode 1 was a more fully developed character than Finn (who you dismiss as a "token black guy", despite being a protagonist) in episode 7?

That is bizarre.

Do you think that your obsession with political correctness might have distorted the way that you viewed the films?

What was the point of Finns character in the Last Jedi? What did he accomplish?

DirtyDishSoap wrote:What was the point of Finns character in the Last Jedi? What did he accomplish?

In episode 8? Completed a character arc from stormtrooper to rebel, overcoming his selfish and cowardly side. Became one of the lead fighters in the rebellion. Has a whole mission to secure secret codes. Was one third of a love triangle with Rose and Rey. Killed Captain Phasma, one of the big baddies.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Symmetry wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:What was the point of Finns character in the Last Jedi? What did he accomplish?

In episode 8? Completed a character arc from stormtrooper to rebel, overcoming his selfish and cowardly side.

He did this in Episode 7. Why do we need to see the same thing?

Symmetry wrote:Became one of the lead fighters in the rebellion.

He did one scene where he fought with the resistance. Most of the movie was focusing on his arbitrary sublot that didn't go anywhere.

Symmetry wrote:Has a whole mission to secure secret codes.

You could remove this entire section of the film and the movie would not change at all.

Symmetry wrote:Was one third of a love triangle with Rose and Rey.

Even you have to admit that the Rose romance was forced, come on...As for Rey, that's left ambiguous at best.

Symmetry wrote:Killed Captain Phasma, one of the big baddies.

LOL!
The "big baddie" with less screen time than Boba Fett, an equally worst character. Woo, what an accomplishment.

Symmetry wrote:I'm not sure what your point is.

That he's there for the sake of diversity and nothing more.

DirtyDishSoap wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:What was the point of Finns character in the Last Jedi? What did he accomplish?

In episode 8? Completed a character arc from stormtrooper to rebel, overcoming his selfish and cowardly side.

He did this in Episode 7. Why do we need to see the same thing?

Symmetry wrote:Became one of the lead fighters in the rebellion.

He did one scene where he fought with the resistance. Most of the movie was focusing on his arbitrary sublot that didn't go anywhere.

Symmetry wrote:Has a whole mission to secure secret codes.

You could remove this entire section of the film and the movie would not change at all.

Symmetry wrote:Was one third of a love triangle with Rose and Rey.

Even you have to admit that the Rose romance was forced, come on...As for Rey, that's left ambiguous at best.

Symmetry wrote:Killed Captain Phasma, one of the big baddies.

LOL!
The "big baddie" with less screen time than Boba Fett, an equally worst character. Woo, what an accomplishment.

Symmetry wrote:I'm not sure what your point is.

That he's there for the sake of diversity and nothing more.

Then your point is silly, as he's one of the main characters in the new trilogy.

As for the rest, Boba Fett was a very minor character compared to Phasma. A better comparison would be the one line, one shot bad-guy Darth Maul. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that your prequel-loving self considers that dude one of the big bads.

The trooper to rebel arc wasn't really complete till he faced down his old commander.

The Rose stuff was nice, sorry to be a big ol' romantic. She seems better for him than Vader Jr does for Rey. Filmmakers are interesting that way- juxtaposing relationships.

Anyway you look at it- even with your constant shifting of goalposts, Finn really isn't a token character.

Maybe the "forced" is with you.

Symmetry wrote:Then your point is silly, as he's one of the main characters in the new trilogy.

It's only silly when it's true.

Symmetry wrote:As for the rest, Boba Fett was a very minor character compared to Phasma. A better comparison would be the one line, one shot bad-guy Darth Maul. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that your prequel-loving self considers that dude one of the big bads.

Between two movies, Phasma has a combined total of 3 to 4 minutes of screen time. What makes her a compelling bad guy? Her shiny armor? What character motivations does she have? Does she have any characteristics at all other than having shiny armor? She's a god awful villain and you trying to justify her existence in this movie is laughable.

Edit: I looked this up, she has a total screen time of 3 minutes and 30 seconds, so my wild guess was pretty accurate. Phasma beats out Boba by 45 seconds (oh no ), Darth Maul and his one shoot one line has managed to pull in 6 minutes of total screen time. Geeze...It's like...2 shitty villains that didn't advance the plot in any way shape or form and being killed off in two films is almost like...A mirror or something...At least Maul kills someone that people probably thought would be part of the main cast in later installments.

And I've never defended the prequels to being good, much less love it. Least I recognize it for being an over dramatized bureaucratic world building series than a mindless action flick.

Symmetry wrote:The trooper to rebel arc wasn't really complete till he faced down his old commander.

Wait...You mean when he did that in The Force Awakens by throwing her into a garbage chute on a planet that was being destroyed and she inexplicably lives anyways? Got me there.

Symmetry wrote:The Rose stuff was nice, sorry to be a big ol' romantic. She seems better for him than Vader Jr does for Rey. Filmmakers are interesting that way- juxtaposing relationships.

It was out of nowhere and pretty fuckin cringe. I mean...Finn is getting ready to sacrifice himself for the Resistance but Rose suddenly falls in love with him, prevents it, make out in front of The First Order and still have the time to run alllllll the way back to strong hold without so much as a scratch? You've got to be kidding me...

Symmetry wrote:Anyway you look at it- even with your constant shifting of goalposts, Finn really isn't a token character.

Maybe the "forced" is with you.

He wasn't so much in the Force Awakens.

He was in this movie.

Maybe you're just suffering from Stockholm syndrome?

This is a weird discussion. You guys are arguing whether Finn is necessary in the new trilogy; you are not arguing about whether Finn needs to be black. I assume you really mean to argue whether Finn needs to be black.

He's only black because the lesbians demanded it.

The idea behind the token black guy is that he's there to just be a black guy. That's it. So what makes Finn unique or what made him pivotal in this movie to have him?
Here's how I imagine how the film writing went;

Writer - "So we know what we want to do with Rey, but what about Finn?"
Rian - "Finn? Who's that?"
Writer - "The black storm trooper."
Rian - "Oh...Well, I don't know. Have him be a coward and fight Phasma."
Writer - "Phasmas dead though."
Rian - "Well, we'll bring her back in a book using an outside media source to explain how she lived the last minute."
Writer - "Ok....And what else?"
Rian - "Uhhhh...Ok, so lets cut Finns screen time in half...Annnnnd...We need more diversity...So let's add this Asian girl...who falls in love with him for who he is."
Writer - "A coward and a bumbling idiot?"
Rian - "Yes, she loves him for being a coward and a bumbling idiot, except he learns the same lesson again AND we make her dumber."
Writer - "Brilliant."
Rian - "Throw in LOTS of action so people don't pay too much attention to the plot, I'm just kind of tossing stuff together randomly so Disney doesn't can me."
Writer- "Sure thing. This film will put Michael Bay to shame."

DirtyDishSoap wrote:The idea behind the token black guy is that he's there to just be a black guy. That's it. So what makes Finn unique or what made him pivotal in this movie to have him?
Here's how I imagine how the film writing went;

Writer - "So we know what we want to do with Rey, but what about Finn?"
Rian - "Finn? Who's that?"
Writer - "The black storm trooper."
Rian - "Oh...Well, I don't know. Have him be a coward and fight Phasma."
Writer - "Phasmas dead though."
Rian - "Well, we'll bring her back in a book using an outside media source to explain how she lived the last minute."
Writer - "Ok....And what else?"
Rian - "Uhhhh...Ok, so lets cut Finns screen time in half...Annnnnd...We need more diversity...So let's add this Asian girl...who falls in love with him for who he is."
Writer - "A coward and a bumbling idiot?"
Rian - "Yes, she loves him for being a coward and a bumbling idiot, except he learns the same lesson again AND we make her dumber."
Writer - "Brilliant."
Rian - "Throw in LOTS of action so people don't pay too much attention to the plot, I'm just kind of tossing stuff together randomly so Disney doesn't can me."
Writer- "Sure thing. This film will put Michael Bay to shame."

(1) Finn doesn't have to exist as a character.
(2) Finn doesn't have to be black.

Which one of those is your position?

Also, Luke Skywalker trying to 'stab' Kylo Ren with his 'lightsaber' back when Kylo was a kid was obviously heavliy metaphoric and actually just a way to include another couples of subgroups - gays and pedophiles - in the film.

thegreekdog wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:The idea behind the token black guy is that he's there to just be a black guy. That's it. So what makes Finn unique or what made him pivotal in this movie to have him?
Here's how I imagine how the film writing went;

Writer - "So we know what we want to do with Rey, but what about Finn?"
Rian - "Finn? Who's that?"
Writer - "The black storm trooper."
Rian - "Oh...Well, I don't know. Have him be a coward and fight Phasma."
Writer - "Phasmas dead though."
Rian - "Well, we'll bring her back in a book using an outside media source to explain how she lived the last minute."
Writer - "Ok....And what else?"
Rian - "Uhhhh...Ok, so lets cut Finns screen time in half...Annnnnd...We need more diversity...So let's add this Asian girl...who falls in love with him for who he is."
Writer - "A coward and a bumbling idiot?"
Rian - "Yes, she loves him for being a coward and a bumbling idiot, except he learns the same lesson again AND we make her dumber."
Writer - "Brilliant."
Rian - "Throw in LOTS of action so people don't pay too much attention to the plot, I'm just kind of tossing stuff together randomly so Disney doesn't can me."
Writer- "Sure thing. This film will put Michael Bay to shame."

(1) Finn doesn't have to exist as a character.
(2) Finn doesn't have to be black.

Which one of those is your position?

Both

I definately agree with this part.

DirtyDishSoap wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:(1) Finn doesn't have to exist as a character.
(2) Finn doesn't have to be black.

Which one of those is your position?

Both

Where my opinion diverges and I put way too much into writing this but...

First, it's supposed to be all action and not quite realistic. R2-D2 is some sort of hero instead of just a robot programmed to repair things. You forget the weird fact that him and BB-8 hang out with a pilot then ride along with them in their X wing fighters to fix damage incurred during battle. Yet in the first movie he's with Pricess Leia, where's her X wing fighter? Then when Luke bugger's off to drink blue milk almost straight from the teat R2-D2 just goes to sleep. Why didn't he just hang out with "General Leia" the real Mary Sue? You never bitched about any of that did you?

Second, even though Finn does not have to be African or even exist, and even if DDS thinks he's dumb and what have you for being flawed, I like him.

I find it interesting and even healthy for the writers to slip him in with the stormtroopers, that until him were all white. I think it's probably a really good thing for the US who is not having very good race relations these days to introduce that racial diversity into the bad guys without making the character himself a bad guy. If the stormtroopers continued to be all white it would just allow for more race baiting theories once the First Order or whatever the empire is being called now, happened to became the Nazis in the new series, eventually the SJWs would suggest, "Of course they're the bad guys, that's what white people do."

I'm sure some are making that into their truth as it is. I don't need to make him a villain, maybe there will be an African bad guy in a Star Wars story later. I'm ok if there never is though.

I like that Finn is not convinced he should ever help the Rebels. He just keeps getting sucked in. He really only wants to get away from fighting and that makes him a coward and perhaps a filthy deserter who should be court marshaled, but not dumb.

If he seems dumb it's because he was programmed to be a stormtrooper. Let's remember his name is FN-2187 It was Poe that said, "I'm not calling you that. How about Finn."

He was never expected to make it through stormtrooper programming as a person with a conscience. It was considered an error when he realizes what was going on is bad. He was just supposed to smoke the villagers in the first film like the other stormtroopers but his programming failed.

It looked to me like that was somewhat normal, no one freaked out they were just calmly talking about sending him to be checked and presumably he would be re-programmed or maybe euthanized. Except we never found out because he snuck away and then he found Poe and helped him escape.

As a veteran that seems very bad since he is deserting, but consider how we feel about Nazis during World War II that figured out they were on the wrong side, and subsequently helped people dodge death camps and or escape the region. He is supposed to be like that.

So that was fine, and he was thinking, "Cool, I'm out of here." Then his plan backfired when Poe took him back to fetch BB-8 which may have worked if they had not crashed. Fortunately he found BB-8 who was with Rey who through poor writing (insert your complaint that she is a Mary Sue, I wish she was so she would have just killed Kylo right away instead of letting him return to be Emo next movie.) is a pilot but also won't leave the dessert planet because she is hoping her family comes back...




As for continuity errors they have been doing that re-writing the story on the go with errors and occasional bad ideas since the Empire Strikes Back.

George never thought they would let him make another one so he made it a weird one off. Then he added the big surprises, "I am your father." The hot princess is dudes sister...

That's why I never get involved in those silly, "This is cannon." Debates. Any bizarre thing they throw in will become "cannon" if there is no backlash. Sometimes dispite backlash. Han shot Greedo without it being self defense because he was a bit of a Vader like guy. Then as things changed he developed into a reluctant good guy. Better go back and ruin the first film to make it fit the new story.

If lots re-writing with occasional bad things slipping in bothers you, maybe you're a Trekkie. Do you want to talk about midichlorians? Let's blame Disney for that it will be fun.

2dimes wrote:I definately agree with this part.

DirtyDishSoap wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:(1) Finn doesn't have to exist as a character.
(2) Finn doesn't have to be black.

Which one of those is your position?

Both

Where my opinion diverges and I put way too much into writing this but...

First, it's supposed to be all action and not quite realistic. R2-D2 is some sort of hero instead of just a robot programmed to repair things. You forget the weird fact that him and BB-8 hang out with a pilot then ride along with them in their X wing fighters to fix damage incurred during battle. Yet in the first movie he's with Pricess Leia, where's her X wing fighter? Then when Luke bugger's off to drink blue milk almost straight from the teat R2-D2 just goes to sleep. Why didn't he just hang out with "General Leia" the real Mary Sue? You never bitched about any of that did you?

The whole Leia being a Mary Sue/Marry Poppins is different. That whole scene didn't make sense and it was stupid.

2dimes wrote:Second, even though Finn does not have to be African or even exist, and even if DDS thinks he's dumb and what have you for being flawed, I like him.

I find it interesting and even healthy for the writers to slip him in with the stormtroopers, that until him were all white. I think it's probably a really good thing for the US who is not having very good race relations these days to introduce that racial diversity into the bad guys without making the character himself a bad guy. If the stormtroopers continued to be all white it would just allow for more race baiting theories once the First Order or whatever the empire is being called now, happened to became the Nazis in the new series, eventually the SJWs would suggest, "Of course they're the bad guys, that's what white people do."

They don't need to be all white, but we assume they are because....no reason? I get it, racial tension and all, just look at the praise Black Panther got before it was even released, but come the f*ck on, make the character compelling and relatable consistently.

2dimes wrote:I'm sure some are making that into their truth as it is. I don't need to make him a villain, maybe there will be an African bad guy in a Star Wars story later. I'm ok if there never is though.

I don't care about the skin color as long as the character is believable. The all star female cast for Ghost Busters for example was a shitty movie but Hollywood wanted "strong female characters" except that they forgot to write a plot that makes them strong. Like...A cast of x gender or ethnicity is great, but if your writing is shit and it's becoming clear that you're adding these people who suck at acting anyways to pander the views to these social morons, you're going to make a shitty movie.

2dimes wrote:I like that Finn is not convinced he should ever help the Rebels. He just keeps getting sucked in. He really only wants to get away from fighting and that makes him a coward and perhaps a filthy deserter who should be court marshaled, but not dumb.

He literally went through this transition in the first movie, again, I fail to see the point in devolving the character when he already has an investment in the resistance anyways. If the writers had made him suffer PTSD because of what he saw on Starkiller base or from his spine inducing injury that should have crippled him, I'd get that. But they fail to do that and just revert to him not evolving at all.

2dimes wrote:If he seems dumb it's because he was programmed to be a stormtrooper. Let's remember his name is FN-2187 It was Poe that said, "I'm not calling you that. How about Finn."

So I'm not entirely sure how the first order trains or breeds their stormtroopers, but I imagine it's a rigorous training cycle from birth. Finn should have the mindset and capability to know how to operate weapons and such (even though he was a janitor?) And obviously an education behind it...Like, I know in the cinematic universe that stormtroopers are pretty incompetent but for all intents and purposes, they're meant to be bad asses.

2dimes wrote:He was never expected to make it through stormtrooper programming as a person with a conscience. It was considered an error when he realizes what was going on is bad. He was just supposed to smoke the villagers in the first film like the other stormtroopers but his programming failed.

If he was a janitor the entire time and then suddenly was taken along for a mission...I just don't see how the dots are being connected really?

2dimes wrote:It looked to me like that was somewhat normal, no one freaked out they were just calmly talking about sending him to be checked and presumably he would be re-programmed or maybe euthanized. Except we never found out because he snuck away and then he found Poe and helped him escape.

This is why I hate that no one knows what happens in the 30 years after the Empires collapse because we assume that The First Order just picks up the pieces and continues the conquest? Again, if the fighting continued for 30 years, most of these storm troopers are probably battle hardened veterans, whereas Finn is just some dude that scrubs floors.

2dimes wrote:As a veteran that seems very bad since he is deserting, but consider how we feel about Nazis during World War II that figured out they were on the wrong side, and subsequently helped people dodge death camps and or escape the region. He is supposed to be like that.

I get the meaning behind why he wants to flee initially, but again, he resolves to fight them in the end of The Force Awakens.

2dimes wrote:So that was fine, and he was thinking, "Cool, I'm out of here." Then his plan backfired when Poe took him back to fetch BB-8 which may have worked if they had not crashed. Fortunately he found BB-8 who was with Rey who through poor writing (insert your complaint that she is a Mary Sue, I wish she was so she would have just killed Kylo right away instead of letting him return to be Emo next movie.) is a pilot but also won't leave the dessert planet because she is hoping her family comes back...

Why do you think Rey is not a Mary Sue?

2dimes wrote:As for continuity errors they have been doing that re-writing the story on the go with errors and occasional bad ideas since the Empire Strikes Back.

George never thought they would let him make another one so he made it a weird one off. Then he added the big surprises, "I am your father." The hot princess is dudes sister...

That's why I never get involved in those silly, "This is cannon." Debates. Any bizarre thing they throw in will become "cannon" if there is no backlash. Sometimes dispite backlash. Han shot Greedo without it being self defense because he was a bit of a Vader like guy. Then as things changed he developed into a reluctant good guy. Better go back and ruin the first film to make it fit the new story.

If lots re-writing with occasional bad things slipping in bothers you, maybe you're a Trekkie. Do you want to talk about midichlorians? Let's blame Disney for that it will be fun.

So yeah, I hate what George did to the originals with the shitty CGI neck movement or adding Jar Jar in later "re-writes." But the originals are still overall decent films whereas these newer ones are more action packed but no thought. So yeah, that's where I stand on that.

Edit - I don't understand these strawman arguments by focusing on the prequels. Like, those movies were bad too, I'm not defending them on how they were shot or anything, just from a lore standpoint...Except the midichlorions or whatever.

I have a few thoughts (Star Wars thoughts... not SJW thoughts):

(1) Racism isn't a thing in the Star Wars universe. While having a black stormtrooper may be a thing in the real world, it is not a thing in Star Wars. No one in the Star Wars universe cared whether Lando was black or not; fans did, sure, but Luke and Han and Leia and Vader and Fett and Nien Nunb did not. So no one in the Star Wars universe cared that Finn was black. The dialogue wasn't "You're a stormtooper?" "Yes" "But you're black?"

(2) I don't recall seeing a stormtrooper out of armor in the original trilogy so I have no idea if all the stormtroopers were white. They certainly wore white armor (except the Dark Troopers). The clone troopers were all clones so they all had the same race, but, again, it's not relevant in the Star Wars universe.

(3) I think Finn's character serves an everyman role. Rey is effectively a goddess on earth at this point. Poe is the greatest pilot in the galaxy. We need a "normal" character and that is Finn.

(4) My biggest issue with the Star Wars film universe (not real life) is that aliens take a ridiculous back seat to humans (black, white or Asian). Think about the original trilogy. The Imperials were anti-alien, so let's leave them out. What Rebels did you see in A New Hope that weren't human? All the fighter pilots were human. All the command and control people were human. The only alien involved in A New Hope was Chewbacca and he wasn't even technically a Rebel. Rogue One (probably my favorite Star Wars movie... fight me...) had some aliens, but recall at the end when all the dudes jump onto the ship to go steal the plans... they were all human. In RotJ again, all the fighter pilots were human. Yeah, you had Ackbar and Nien Nunb, but nary an alien to be seen. Shit, even Force Awakens and Last Jedi (my third favorite after Empire... fight me...) had limited alien presence.

(5) I suspect John Boyega was asked to play a stormtrooper to achieve some racial diversity in the newest Star Wars trilogy. I'm okay with that because (a) he's a good actor and (b) he does play an important everyman role.

(6) I hate Captain Phasma.

DirtyDishSoap wrote:This is why I hate that no one knows what happens in the 30 years after the Empires collapse because we assume that The First Order just picks up the pieces and continues the conquest? Again, if the fighting continued for 30 years, most of these storm troopers are probably battle hardened veterans, whereas Finn is just some dude that scrubs floors.

I'll try to explain based on what I've read, but I'll probably butcher this. And spoiler alerts.

[spoiler]Immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the Battle of Jakku, some Imperial admiral (I can't remember his name) basically starts buying/stealing children and training them to be ruthless soldiers. He dies on Jakku but the Hux and some of the children get away. They go to some random part of the galaxy and start buying up equipment and stealing children. Leia finds out about the rebirth of the Empire but then the galaxy finds out she was Darth Vader's daughter at about the same time so she gets kicked from Republic politics (which is basically two factions that don't want to do anything). So Leia forms the resistance... the rest was in A Force Awakens and Last Jedi (the First Order destroys the Republic with Death Star III, the resistance destroys Death Star III, somehow the First Order have a shit ton of ships and troops and is taking over the galaxy, somehow the Resistance has like 20 people left but one is a new Jedi, etc).[/spoiler]

After a skim I'll throw out a quick post. Probably be better than that over blown abortion I posted up there.

FN-2187 is supposedly programmed to be a stormtrooper. I have to think that he was either incubated for it or stolen from a family as a very young child.

Then later he claims to be a janitor. I have no doubt that was a writing continuity failure, for all I know he ad-libbed the line and they kept it in.

Before they threw him in there most stormtroopers were Jenga/Boba Fett the Australian.

I don't know if they will fill in the 30 year gap between with crappy "Solo a Star Wars Story" movies, probably, and like everything else they're going to just be thrown out there full of new things to argue about.

As long as it's lasers and cool small droids that supposedly are speaking with random ring tones and less Ewoks and Whatever Jar Jar is which is probably years of arguing right there...

I'm happy.

Post read additions Edits:

I'm not against people claiming Rey is a Mary Sue but other than she is supposedly and it's never explained why, a good pilot and she is even more naturally in tune with the force than both Luke and Anakin she's kind of a strange neurotic young lady. Fairly flawed and afraid.

Laura Durn's character and Liea on the other hand are the definition of "Mary Sue" they are the very top officials of the resistance. Sure, they are written just to prove women can be in charge of the universe but with no details to trick us into it. "They are brilliant at running the show you just don't get to see that part."

I liked the first prequal. Qui Gon is one of my favorite characters like top two. Other than mediclorians and wishing Jar Jar was brutally dispatched it was good. I was excited for the second one but the guy playing Anikin was so bad I refused to watch the third. After I watched the force awakens I went back and thoroughly enjoyed the third. I only keep bringing them up due to the examples of things worse than anything since Ewoks. Point being no matter how bad Disney is George set the bar too high to ruin these movies.

I made a new post to say I really agree with these points.

thegreekdog wrote:(1) Racism isn't a thing in the Star Wars universe. While having a black stormtrooper may be a thing in the real world, it is not a thing in Star Wars. No one in the Star Wars universe cared whether Lando was black or not; fans did, sure, but Luke and Han and Leia and Vader and Fett and Nien Nunb did not. So no one in the Star Wars universe cared that Finn was black. The dialogue wasn't "You're a stormtooper?" "Yes" "But you're black?"

(5) I suspect John Boyega was asked to play a stormtrooper to achieve some racial diversity in the newest Star Wars trilogy. I'm okay with that because (a) he's a good actor and (b) he does play an important everyman role.

(6) I hate Captain Phasma.

Phasma is kind of hot though...

I also would like to see that crappy ginger looking guy in charge of the First order that Kylo keeps fighting with take Kylo out. "You're obviously a bad guy, Snoke is gone. Get him before he gets you. He killed his own father, you must know it's coming!"

Maybe Kylo won't kill him but that doesn't make sense either except I suppose Renn knows the guy is subservient. Still I'd like that and it would blow away the regular fans.

2dimes wrote:I made a new post to say I really agree with these points.

thegreekdog wrote:(1) Racism isn't a thing in the Star Wars universe. While having a black stormtrooper may be a thing in the real world, it is not a thing in Star Wars. No one in the Star Wars universe cared whether Lando was black or not; fans did, sure, but Luke and Han and Leia and Vader and Fett and Nien Nunb did not. So no one in the Star Wars universe cared that Finn was black. The dialogue wasn't "You're a stormtooper?" "Yes" "But you're black?"

(5) I suspect John Boyega was asked to play a stormtrooper to achieve some racial diversity in the newest Star Wars trilogy. I'm okay with that because (a) he's a good actor and (b) he does play an important everyman role.

(6) I hate Captain Phasma.

Phasma is kind of hot though...

I also would like to see that crappy ginger looking guy in charge of the First order that Kylo keeps fighting with take Kylo out. "You're obviously a bad guy, Snoke is gone. Get him before he gets you. He killed his own father, you must know it's coming!"

Maybe Kylo won't kill him but that doesn't make sense either except I suppose Renn knows the guy is subservient. Still I'd like that and it would blow away the regular fans.

Everything Gwendoline Christie does is amazing. It's odd that people don't like her as Phasma. It's weird that people who think that casting Boyega was a "token" or "diversity" casting choice as a stormtrooper, yet they're reluctant to point out the 6'3" woman who's a stormtrooper captain.

As always with these kind of ridiculous debates though, the fun question is whether you think that the cast of the original trilogy, or indeed the prequels, owe their roles to being white?

thegreekdog wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:This is why I hate that no one knows what happens in the 30 years after the Empires collapse because we assume that The First Order just picks up the pieces and continues the conquest? Again, if the fighting continued for 30 years, most of these storm troopers are probably battle hardened veterans, whereas Finn is just some dude that scrubs floors.

I'll try to explain based on what I've read, but I'll probably butcher this. And spoiler alerts.

[spoiler]Immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the Battle of Jakku, some Imperial admiral (I can't remember his name) basically starts buying/stealing children and training them to be ruthless soldiers. He dies on Jakku but the Hux and some of the children get away. They go to some random part of the galaxy and start buying up equipment and stealing children. Leia finds out about the rebirth of the Empire but then the galaxy finds out she was Darth Vader's daughter at about the same time so she gets kicked from Republic politics (which is basically two factions that don't want to do anything). So Leia forms the resistance... the rest was in A Force Awakens and Last Jedi (the First Order destroys the Republic with Death Star III, the resistance destroys Death Star III, somehow the First Order have a shit ton of ships and troops and is taking over the galaxy, somehow the Resistance has like 20 people left but one is a new Jedi, etc).[/spoiler]

So wait, where is this explained? If this is from a book, I'll be butt hurt.

Sym - The casting choice for Phasma doesn't matter, it's that the character Phasma being written off and her being a waste of talent is the issue. She doesn't do anything in the films except get thrown in the garbage or fall into a pit of flames...Phasma as a character, sucks.

DirtyDishSoap wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:This is why I hate that no one knows what happens in the 30 years after the Empires collapse because we assume that The First Order just picks up the pieces and continues the conquest? Again, if the fighting continued for 30 years, most of these storm troopers are probably battle hardened veterans, whereas Finn is just some dude that scrubs floors.

I'll try to explain based on what I've read, but I'll probably butcher this. And spoiler alerts.

[spoiler]Immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the Battle of Jakku, some Imperial admiral (I can't remember his name) basically starts buying/stealing children and training them to be ruthless soldiers. He dies on Jakku but the Hux and some of the children get away. They go to some random part of the galaxy and start buying up equipment and stealing children. Leia finds out about the rebirth of the Empire but then the galaxy finds out she was Darth Vader's daughter at about the same time so she gets kicked from Republic politics (which is basically two factions that don't want to do anything). So Leia forms the resistance... the rest was in A Force Awakens and Last Jedi (the First Order destroys the Republic with Death Star III, the resistance destroys Death Star III, somehow the First Order have a shit ton of ships and troops and is taking over the galaxy, somehow the Resistance has like 20 people left but one is a new Jedi, etc).[/spoiler]

So wait, where is this explained? If this is from a book, I'll be butt hurt.

Sym - The casting choice for Phasma doesn't matter, it's that the character Phasma being written off and her being a waste of talent is the issue. She doesn't do anything in the films except get thrown in the garbage or fall into a pit of flames...Phasma as a character, sucks.

So you're upset that Phasma, who has a key role in the films so far, was wasted because she was both played by a great actor, and sucked at it. Darth Maul, as a character and as an actor, actually was piss poor, but there's a lot of Star Wars fanboy comics about him.

Hell, even Darth Vader took three or four actors to put together.

DirtyDishSoap wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:This is why I hate that no one knows what happens in the 30 years after the Empires collapse because we assume that The First Order just picks up the pieces and continues the conquest? Again, if the fighting continued for 30 years, most of these storm troopers are probably battle hardened veterans, whereas Finn is just some dude that scrubs floors.

I'll try to explain based on what I've read, but I'll probably butcher this. And spoiler alerts.

[spoiler]Immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the Battle of Jakku, some Imperial admiral (I can't remember his name) basically starts buying/stealing children and training them to be ruthless soldiers. He dies on Jakku but the Hux and some of the children get away. They go to some random part of the galaxy and start buying up equipment and stealing children. Leia finds out about the rebirth of the Empire but then the galaxy finds out she was Darth Vader's daughter at about the same time so she gets kicked from Republic politics (which is basically two factions that don't want to do anything). So Leia forms the resistance... the rest was in A Force Awakens and Last Jedi (the First Order destroys the Republic with Death Star III, the resistance destroys Death Star III, somehow the First Order have a shit ton of ships and troops and is taking over the galaxy, somehow the Resistance has like 20 people left but one is a new Jedi, etc).[/spoiler]

So wait, where is this explained? If this is from a book, I'll be butt hurt.

Sym - The casting choice for Phasma doesn't matter, it's that the character Phasma being written off and her being a waste of talent is the issue. She doesn't do anything in the films except get thrown in the garbage or fall into a pit of flames...Phasma as a character, sucks.

Yes, books. Aftermath and then the Leia book (I don't remember what it was called).

Symmetry wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:This is why I hate that no one knows what happens in the 30 years after the Empires collapse because we assume that The First Order just picks up the pieces and continues the conquest? Again, if the fighting continued for 30 years, most of these storm troopers are probably battle hardened veterans, whereas Finn is just some dude that scrubs floors.

I'll try to explain based on what I've read, but I'll probably butcher this. And spoiler alerts.

[spoiler]Immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the Battle of Jakku, some Imperial admiral (I can't remember his name) basically starts buying/stealing children and training them to be ruthless soldiers. He dies on Jakku but the Hux and some of the children get away. They go to some random part of the galaxy and start buying up equipment and stealing children. Leia finds out about the rebirth of the Empire but then the galaxy finds out she was Darth Vader's daughter at about the same time so she gets kicked from Republic politics (which is basically two factions that don't want to do anything). So Leia forms the resistance... the rest was in A Force Awakens and Last Jedi (the First Order destroys the Republic with Death Star III, the resistance destroys Death Star III, somehow the First Order have a shit ton of ships and troops and is taking over the galaxy, somehow the Resistance has like 20 people left but one is a new Jedi, etc).[/spoiler]

So wait, where is this explained? If this is from a book, I'll be butt hurt.

Sym - The casting choice for Phasma doesn't matter, it's that the character Phasma being written off and her being a waste of talent is the issue. She doesn't do anything in the films except get thrown in the garbage or fall into a pit of flames...Phasma as a character, sucks.

So you're upset that Phasma, who has a key role in the films so far, was wasted because she was both played by a great actor, and sucked at it. Darth Maul, as a character and as an actor, actually was piss poor, but there's a lot of Star Wars fanboy comics about him.

Hell, even Darth Vader took three or four actors to put together.

I like Christie. I like the idea of Phasma but I thought she was given short shrift in the movies. I'm also pretty sure Star Wars fanboys love her (same as GoT fanboys love her).

As for Darth Maul, I'm fairly certain Star Wars fanboys like him because he's got a double-bladed lightsaber and looks badass. The only Siths for me were Vader and Palpatine. Kylo Ren is growing on me though.

Here's a thing about Finn, "trained from birth.." although it didn't seem to take.

I didn't see anything about his stint as a janitor.
https://www.starwars.com/databank/finn

Symmetry wrote:

(6) I hate Captain Phasma.

Everything Gwendoline Christie does is amazing. It's odd that people don't like her as Phasma. It's weird that people who think that casting Boyega was a "token" or "diversity" casting choice as a stormtrooper, yet they're reluctant to point out the 6'3" woman who's a stormtrooper captain.

In my case I hate the character, because the actress did such a stellar job of the role. She's a villain and you're supposed to have those emotions about her.

She seems brutal and possibly capable of stomping Kylo Renn and the ginger guy at the same time given a chance.

I think FN-2187 got lucky when he took her out. That could have went badly for him and almost did.

Darth Maul is amazing because Ray Park is an accomplished martial artist who is so good with a staff.