Conquer Club

Ok, so here is a much shorter explanation of this map, along with a much better draft. Hopefully this will make it clear.

[bigimg]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/carlpgoodrich/Inferno_V12.jpg?t=1281972608[/bigimg]


In Dante's L'Inferno, Dante and Virgil travel through hell, which is composed of 9 "circles" corresponding to different sins, and eventually escape from the very bottom, where the devil is torturing the worst sinners. I want to replicate this in a map, with 8 starting positions above ground and neutral territories filling up the rest of the cone-shaped map.

I have changed the gameplay very slightly from the first post. There are still a few things to be worked out in the gameplay, and I am more than eager to hear suggestions. Graphics wise, most of this will have to be redone. As AndyDufresne mentioned below, there are so many cool William Blake paintings related to this theme... I really want that feeling to be in the map. Unfortunately I am a horrible artist and if anyone would be willing to do the graphics with (for?) me, please let me know.

Also, I am thinking about changing the regular territory bonus to +1 per two territories with a minimum of 1 or 2 to encourage expansion in the first few circles.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms? Encouragements? Random Ideas?

[spoiler=Older Versions]V1.1
[bigimg]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/carlpgoodrich/Inferno_V11.jpg?t=1279245805[/bigimg]
V1.0
[bigimg]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/carlpgoodrich/CC/Inferno_v10.jpg?t=1279115236[/bigimg][/spoiler]
[spoiler=Original Post]There has been a number of discussions about doing a map of hell, possibly using Dante's great poem L'Inforno for inspiration (http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=24077&p=2395791&hilit=l%27inferno#p2395791). In my opinion, the two reasons this never happened was a) a lack of a realistic gameplay that worked with the theme, and b) a mapmaker to spearhead the project. I think I can do both, although try as I might my graphics talent is very poor (see below).

So here's the gameplay idea. L'Inforno is a great story with lots of detail, and I want this map to be as true to the story as possible. In it, Vergil guides Dante through the nine circles of hell, where they meet lots of people suffering in each circle. In each circle is a group of sinners, and their punishment is ironically suited to fit the sin. So, in this map, the idea will be to travel from above ground where Dante and Virgil start down to the bottom of the 9th circle where they meet the devil himself, and escape.

There will be 8 starting positions above ground (probably with an autodeploy), each one being able to one way attack a territory in the first circle (see the blue lines below). A few territories in the first circle could then attack the second circle (also in blue), and so on and so forth. I have not come close to working out all the territories and connections, but the number of territories would decreases as you get to higher circles (near the bottom). Also, the connections within a circle would change to fit the story (i.e. in the second circle, the lustful are blown about by a terrible wind, so maybe all the territories in that circle can attack all the others). I will obviously be very open to as many suggestions as possible.

Now, the unique aspect of this gameplay, IMO, is the way the objective and the bonuses work. The idea is to "journey through hell" without getting stuck in it. So, for every circle where you occupy at least one territory, you get a bonus equal to that circle number. So if you are in circles one and two, you get a bonus of 1+2=3. HOWEVER, starting with probably circle four, you must have a presence in all previous circles (up to circle 4), to get the bonus. If you do not have a presence in all previous circles (up to circle 4), then you LOSE the troops instead of gaining them.

A few examples:
Have a presence in Circles 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 -> get 1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21 troops.
Have a presence in Circles 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 -> get 4+5+6+7+8 = 30 troops.
Have a presence in Circles 4, 5, 6, 8 -> get 4+5+6-8 = 7 troops.
Have a presence in Circles 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 -> get 1+2+3-5-6-7-8 = -15 troops! (of course there is a minimum of +1 total to deploy).
*I have not included the standard territory # bonus (usually of +3).

Since the risks of venturing deep into hell are so great, much of the action will take place at the upper levels. Once someone thinks they can make it, they may try to go deeper, where the rewards are much greater, as are the risks.

The objective would probably be to hold the final territory, which would be the devil (a 3 headed monster trapped in ice eating the worst betrayers: Brutus and Cassius who betrayed Caesar, and Judus who betrayed Jesus ). Or maybe there can just be a huge bonus for holding that, and it can also attack the starting positions

Anyways, I hope I have at least given a feeling for what the map will be like. I have attached my initial attempt to do the graphics, with a rough schematic of what the first circle might look like. There is still a LOT to be worked out, particularly the connections and territories (which would be the names of people Dante meets), so please, suggestions/comments/criticisms? Does this map have an audience or should I not bother?

[bigimg]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/carlpgoodrich/CC/Inferno_v10.jpg?t=1279115236[/bigimg]


Finally, I am willing to work out all the gameplay issues and be in charge of this map through the gameplay workshop, but I am very very bad at graphics. If anyone would be willing to work on the graphics, please let me know. I see something similar to what Natty is doing for Antarctica.[/spoiler]

Should I take everyone's silence as a lack of support for this map or have people just not yet responded? I know the above pitch was a bit long, should I try to summarize the idea in a few short paragraphs? Or do I need to make a more complete draft to be taken seriously?
Thanks.

Probably need a summary.

However, I think there is a lot potential here---especially from a visual standpoint---if you look into incorporating visual themes similar to William Blake's Etchings:

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/ashp/blakes_dante.html


--Andy

Interesting gameplay scheme. So dismal, though -- who's want to own all of Hell? How 'bout a nice map of heaven instead?

Evil DIMwit wrote:Interesting gameplay scheme. So dismal, though -- who's want to own all of Hell? How 'bout a nice map of heaven instead?

Battles in Hell sound more visually appealing than Battles in Heaven.


--Andy

Thanks for the comments, I will write up a shorter summary and try to add a bit more to the draft to make the gameplay more clear.

Evil DIMwit wrote:Interesting gameplay scheme. So dismal, though -- who's want to own all of Hell? How 'bout a nice map of heaven instead?

True. I was thinking more along the lines of escaping from Hell. In the poem, dante and virgil after traveling deeper and deeper into hell, eventually slipping past the devil and appearing in purgatory. L'Inferno is actually only one third of the Divine Comedy, as there are lesser known parts on purgatory and heaven, but I want to do hell for now .

I read the Inferno, and enjoyed it. I TRIED to read Purgatorio and gave up after chapter 3. Hell is just so much more badass than Purgatory or Heaven. I've wondered for quite some time when someone would seriously undertake an Inferno map, so you have my support on moving it forward. Gameplay-wise, I'll need to see more to really give a judgment call on the map itself.

Ok, so here is a shorter explanation of this map, along with a much better draft. I have also updated the first post. Hopefully this will make it clear.

[bigimg]http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae229/carlpgoodrich/Inferno_V11.jpg?t=1279245805[/bigimg]

In Dante's L'Inferno, Dante and Virgil travel through hell, which is composed of 9 "circles" corresponding to different sins, and eventually escape from the very bottom, where the devil is torturing the worst sinners. I want to replicate this in a map, with 8 starting positions above ground and neutral territories filling up the rest of the cone-shaped map.

I have changed the gameplay very slightly from the first post. There are still a few things to be worked out in the gameplay, and I am more than eager to hear suggestions. Graphics wise, most of this will have to be redone. As AndyDufresne mentioned below, there are so many cool William Blake paintings related to this theme... I really want that feeling to be in the map. Unfortunately I am a horrible artist and if anyone would be willing to do the graphics with (for?) me, please let me know.

Also, I am thinking about changing the regular territory bonus to +1 per two territories with a minimum of 1 or 2 to encourage expansion in the first few circles.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms? Encouragements? Random Ideas?

The explanation helps a lot and has gone a long way in peaking my interest in this map. I'd say a lot of the success rides on the graphics though.

As for the gameplay, you ever think a downward spiral might work?

And for the graphics, I think you need to be cautious in areas like Unbaptized as you've got to fit territory names in there as well.

Industrial Helix wrote:The explanation helps a lot and has gone a long way in peaking my interest in this map. I'd say a lot of the success rides on the graphics though.

As for the gameplay, you ever think a downward spiral might work?

And for the graphics, I think you need to be cautious in areas like Unbaptized as you've got to fit territory names in there as well.

You bring up an interesting point with the territory names. I originally wanted them to be the names of people that Dante meets (lots of famous people: Homer, Horace, Ovid, Euclid, Socrates, Aristotle, and Julius Caesar, etc. are all in Circle 1, for example). The only problem with that is there are a few circles where the people are unrecognizable, so I'd have to come up with something else for them. I could also come up with some sort of notation scheme to save space.

What do you mean by a downward spiral? I think I understand the picture you are thinking about, but I'm not sure I understand the gameplay.

Basically I'm thinking that the gameplay leads players inevitably downward. But then again, you've really got that covered.

Here are a few topics that I think need to be discussed before I submit a Design Brief. I am eager to get into the finer details of the gameplay, but I want to make sure these get ironed out first.

General Topics

• Are there any issues with the overall theme of the map or how it is being implemented?
• Are there any concerns regarding the territories/connections? Everything except circle 1 is symmetric, which I wanted to avoid but couldn't without making unfair gameplay. I think this is ok in this map because of the way the gameplay will unfold. Does anyone disagree or have any suggestions?
• Any worries about the starting positions being so well protected? This is similar to Das Schloss (and WWII Poland to a lesser extent), so I'm hoping there won't be any objections.
• Concerns about overall downward play of the map?
• Thoughts on whether Lucifer should be an objective or just a very large bonus that can bombard entire map. I like the idea that Satan can bombard all of hell. Also, since that is the only way to attack the starting positions, it is probably required for Assassin games, no?

Plus, I am still looking for anyone who is good with graphics and is willing to be a co-mapmaker with me (share all credit equally).I think this map has the potential to be visually stunning, and with so many skilled artists in the Foundry I hope we can make this happen! Please contact me (PM or thread post) if you or anyone you know would be interested in helping with the graphics.

Thanks,
carlpgoodrich

For me, the selling point of any Dante's Inferno map will have to be the graphics. Hellfire and characters must look impeccable.
What were you planning on naming the territories, Dante meets certain figures along the way, you could use their names.
I think Lucifer is too powerful, he could have a massive bonus, but perhaps only attacking the 8 starting territories, making gameplay go in a loop. Or an objective to hold 'exit' or 'path to purgatory', like 200 neutrals, or giving the player a choice between the 2.

00iCon wrote:For me, the selling point of any Dante's Inferno map will have to be the graphics. Hellfire and characters must look impeccable.

I agree. I am just learning how to use Gimp, and I am not known for my artistic ability (though I try), which is why I am trying to recruit someone to help me. Would you/someone you know be interested?

00iCon wrote:What were you planning on naming the territories, Dante meets certain figures along the way, you could use their names.

That's exactly what I want to do. I really want this map to play kind of like the story reads, except with a lot more fighting . The only problem is that in some of the circles no one is mentioned by name, so I would either have to come up with them based on who might belong or use some other method.

00iCon wrote:I think Lucifer is too powerful, he could have a massive bonus, but perhaps only attacking the 8 starting territories, making gameplay go in a loop. Or an objective to hold 'exit' or 'path to purgatory', like 200 neutrals, or giving the player a choice between the 2.

I'm glad you brought this up. The initial idea was to have Lucifer be a victory condition (in the story Dante and Vergil escape by sneaking past lucifer). However, this would mean that the starting position are completely safe, and I was under the impression that this was incompatible with assassin games (mods: can we get some clarification on that?). I had little reason to have Lucifer able to bombard the whole map instead of the starting positions... thoughts from anyone else?

One other possibility would be to have two territories: Lucifer, who can bombard either whole map or just starting positions, and an escape territory with a victory condition. A player would only want to take Lucifer if they wanted to break someone else's bonus, otherwise, if they felt safe enough, they could just take the victory condition.

I couldn't do graphics, sorry. My project's in the bin because I haven't made a good looking Nebula in the past month.

It has been a while since anyone has commented on this map. I of course am responsible for that, but there are a few things I would like to hear some opinions on before I submit a design brief (see 4th previous post). Should I take everyone's silence as a lack of interest in this map? I decided to make a poll, as I do not want to spend so much time on a map no one is interested in. So please vote, and any elaboration, positive or negative, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

The map is cool, but i think it goes to the wrong side. What I mean is: you should be turning yourself in a "bad guy" to win the game, instead of becoming a "good person" and going to heaven?

I think you have an interesting theme for a map here and hope you will pursue it. The gameplay and graphics I'm not really sure about, but that's what the later forums are for.

I'd say submit a design brief... I'm no foundry mod but IMO you seem to have enough interest for the map to move on.

Its Awesome! I like it very much!

I cant wait until its realeased!

Please make it real!

Looks great, would definitely try it if it came out.

Thanks to everyone who responded to the poll and/or made a comment. It looks like there is more positive than negative interest in the map, and so I will continue with it. The real world has been very busy for a few weeks, but I am back and ready to move this map forward. I have just submitted a design brief, but lets start nitpicking the gameplay. Also, any big picture comments... this is the time!

Ok, we've got your design brief, but the major thing that stands out to me that needs to be done are territory names.

Ok, I can put them up. I didn't think they were necessary at this point... Volatile Earth, for example, still doesn't have territory names, and I have already mentioned how I plan on doing the names.

Hmm yes, it seems that slipped by me. I think I took the regional current names to be territory names in my haste. Still, I'd like to see some names on this map. Perhaps you could use the people named by Dante as the territory names? And now I see that this was your idea also. It does work for the Unbaptized section but I haven't read the inferno in years...

This site is quite helpful in listing the people Dante says are there: http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/index2.html

basically it seems you click on a circle and it lists the icons of the circle and its inhabitants. PLus, interesting watercolors. For example, it lists Muhammed in circle 8, fraud, which should stir up the religious on CC. Have fun dealing with that.

Judas and Cain (of cain and able infamy) in Circle 9... plus it seems giants connect circles 8 to 9, standing on the floor of circle 8 to reach 9.

Oh, man, if you ever want to see this map done, pick another name for circle 8 than Mohammed.