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Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:27 pm
by Night Strike
A federal judge ruled in favor of a public university that removed a Christian student over her belief that homosexuality is morally wrong. The decision, according to Julea Ward's attorneys, could result in students across the country being expelled from public universities for similar views.
“It’s a very dangerous precedent,” Jeremy Tedesco, legal counsel for the conservative Alliance Defense Fund, told FOX News Radio. “The ruling doesn’t say that explicitly, but that’s what is going to happen.”
U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.
The university contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association code of ethics.
“Christian students shouldn’t be expelled for holding to and abiding by their beliefs,” said ADF senior counsel David French. “To reach its decision, the court had to do something that’s never been done in federal court: uphold an extremely broad and vague university speech code.”
Eastern Michigan University hailed the decision.
“We are pleased that the court has upheld our position in this matter,” EMU spokesman Walter Kraft said in a written statement. “Julea Ward was not discriminated against because of her religion. To the contrary, Eastern Michigan is deeply committed to the education of our students and welcomes individuals from diverse backgrounds into our community.”
In his 48-page opinion, Judge Steeh said the university had a rational basis for adopting the ACA Code of Ethics.
“Furthermore, the university had a rational basis for requiring students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values,” he wrote in a portion of his ruling posted by The Detroit News. “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.”
Ward’s attorneys claim the university told her she would only be allowed to remain in the program if she went through a “remediation” program so that she could “see the error of her ways” and change her belief system about homosexuality.
The case is similar to a lawsuit the ADF filed against Augusta State University in Georgia. Counseling student Jennifer Keeton was allegedly told to stop sharing her Christian beliefs in order to graduate.
Keeton's lawsuit alleged that she was told to undergo a reeducation program and attend “diversity sensitivity training.”
University officials declined to comment on specifics of the lawsuit but released a statement to FOX News that said Augusta State does not discriminate on the basis of students’ moral, religious, political or personal beliefs.
Tedesco said both cases should be a warning to Christians attending public colleges and universities.
“Public universities are imposing the ideological stances of private groups on their students,” he said. “If you don’t comply, you will be kicked out. It’s scary stuff and it’s not a difficult thing to see what’s coming down the pike.”
The Alliance Defense Fund told FOX News it will appeal the ruling.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/28/court-university-expel-student-opposes-homosexuality/
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:29 pm
by Woodruff
Terrible ruling. If she's violated no laws in expressing her views, then they've got nothing on her. If she has violated some law, then prosecute her ass. I can't imagine this would stand up under the Supreme Court.
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:35 pm
by bedub1
In order to work here you have to abide by our rules, since she won't, she can't work there. But you can't kick her out of the university for being a religious person and not upholding your own beliefs, thats just silly. The judge and university are both idiots, and this goes to show how our eduction system continues to fail and our legal system keeps going down the toilet.
EDIT: Oh, and she should have counseled the students anyway. Tell them your beliefs. I bet they stop wanting you to council them. Things like that have a way of working themselves out on their own and don't require school/government intervention. She just wouldn't have a job because nobody wants to get counseling from a homophobic religious zealot, so she'd get laid off from a lack of work, but can go right ahead and continue being a student.
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:39 pm
by King Doctor
University: We need somebody to counsel students, will you do that job for us?
Woman: I sure will.
University: You are hired.
Woman: Ok. I will now only counsel some students and do only half of the job I have been hired for.
University: You are fired.
Woman: This is discrimination!!! But apparently withdrawing my services, that I was contracted to provide, from an arbitrary group of students was not... I should have been allowed to do that.
Yeah, this sounds like a really controversial case. Or not.
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:41 pm
by bedub1
King Doctor wrote:University: We need somebody to counsel students, will you do that job for us?
Woman: I sure will.
University: You are hired.
Woman: Ok. I will now only counsel some students and do only half of the job I have been hired for.
University: You are fired, and kicked out of the university.
Woman: Okay, I'm fired. But you can't kick me out of the university, that's discrimination.
ftfy
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:42 pm
by Night Strike
She was a graduate student getting a degree in counseling and was expelled from the entire school. It wasn't just that she was fired from doing a job.
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:42 pm
by Woodruff
King Doctor wrote:University: We need somebody to counsel students, will you do that job for us?
Woman: I sure will.
University: You are hired.
Woman: Ok. I will now only counsel some students and do only half of the job I have been hired for.
University: You are fired.
Woman: This is discrimination!!! But apparently withdrawing my services, that I was contracted to provide, from an arbitrary group of students was not... I should have been allowed to do that.
Yeah, this sounds like a really controversial case. Or not.
She wasn't hired...she was a student in a graduate program. Did you even read the article?
She should not be removed from the program for refusing to counsel homosexual students in my view, because her willingness/unwillingness to counsel students will affect her ability to get hired once she graduates and THAT is HER problem.
If it were a "hiring" issue, I would agree entirely with you.
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:36 pm
by King Doctor
Woodruff wrote:She should not be removed from the program for refusing to counsel homosexual students in my view
She should if it was a part of the program.
Would we pass a student who refused to sit a paper because they didn't like the tone of the question? For example, nutty Holocaust denier studies history, gets kicked off the course for refusing to sit a paper on the impact of the Holocaust; fair or not?
This all sounds to me a lot like knee-jerk whining because she's a Christian. If she was getting kicked out because she refused to counsel, say, tall people because of her Jedi beliefs then nobody would be batting an eye. But because she's a member of the same Sky-Daddy club as Nightstrike, he's all up in arms about it.
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:49 pm
by Night Strike
King Doctor wrote:Woodruff wrote:She should not be removed from the program for refusing to counsel homosexual students in my view
She should if it was a part of the program.
Would we pass a student who refused to sit a paper because they didn't like the tone of the question? For example, nutty Holocaust denier studies history, gets kicked off the course for refusing to sit a paper on the impact of the Holocaust; fair or not?
This all sounds to me a lot like knee-jerk whining because she's a Christian. If she was getting kicked out because she refused to counsel, say, tall people because of her Jedi beliefs then nobody would be batting an eye. But because she's a member of the same Sky-Daddy club as Nightstrike, he's all up in arms about it.
It doesn't matter what club she's from when she's kicked out of a
public school for her religious beliefs. Freedom of religion is a right guaranteed by the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, and this decision flies in the face of that fundamental protection.
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:55 pm
by King Doctor
Night Strike wrote:It doesn't matter what club she's from when she's kicked out of a public school for her religious beliefs. Freedom of religion is a right guaranteed by the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, and this decision flies in the face of that fundamental protection.
Ha ha!
Another hilarious example of Nightstrike not being able to respond to the point that is put to him, so falling back on braying his original talking point a few extra times.
Read it a bit slower this time, hopefully you'll be able to keep up better:
If she signed up to a public school, onto a course that required her to counsel people of all persuasions, then turned around and said that she was going to do less than was required of her (and less than all the other students), then out she goes. You'd do the same to the hypothetical Holocaust denier, why the sudden change of tone for a god-botherer?
You don't want to have to advise gay people? Then don't take a course that involves counselling homosexuals.
Stupidity is no defence. For you or her.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:58 pm
by PLAYER57832
The article does sound worrisome. I withhold a bit of judgement, though, pending other details. Too easy for something like this to be twisted all around into something it was not.
Among the issues, if she is holding to the religious belief that homosexuality is something that needs to be "cured", then it is not a lot different from a Christian Science student being ousted from a physicians training program because they refuse to give medicine, do surgary, etc.
However, if she was simply reprimanded for private views... then it is wrong.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:06 pm
by Juan_Bottom
First of all, she's not qualified as a counselor. She judges the people she's supposed to be helping and puts them into categories. The school was in the right by offering her a remediation.
Was she expelled for her willingness to sue the school over her own violation of its pre-stated policies? I don't see why the school would offer her a remediation and then kick her out. It looks like they were trying to help her.
Night Strike wrote:It doesn't matter what club she's from when she's kicked out of a public school for her religious beliefs.
It doesn't say that. It says she was kicked out of the program for refusing to counsel homosexuals, and that she claimed religious exemption for it. But it's unclear to me how she got kicked from the school.
Night Strike wrote:Freedom of religion is a right guaranteed by the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, and this decision flies in the face of that fundamental protection.
I'm an out-Atheist. I've been dealing with this sh*t my whole existence. Tell me what you think come Christmas time.
Wait, was she expelled from the school or just the program? The article doesn't say that she was expelled from the school?
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:08 pm
by Night Strike
PLAYER57832 wrote:However, if she was simply reprimanded for private views... then it is wrong.
Plus the fact that the school tried to force her to change her religious views to match theirs through a remediation course. That's indoctrination, which is also not allowed.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:10 pm
by Night Strike
Juan_Bottom wrote:Wait, was she expelled from the school or just the program? The article doesn't say that she was expelled from the school?
She was expelled from a graduate program, and the only reason you're at a particular graduate school is for a certain program. It's not like undergraduate where you just go to a different major.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:23 pm
by jrl332005
Night Strike wrote:PLAYER57832 wrote:However, if she was simply reprimanded for private views... then it is wrong.
Plus the fact that the school tried to force her to change her religious views to match theirs through a remediation course. That's indoctrination, which is also not allowed.
They weren't forcing her to changer her religious views. She was discriminating against homosexuals and the school gave her the option to take a class that would help her overcome her distain for them or she could leave the program. She decided that she would not take the classes, so the school had no other option than to remove her because she broke school rules and because of her inability to be a useful counselor should she ever graduate from a counseling program.
None of this would have happened if she did not discriminate homosexuals publicly by refusing to provide her services to them and just kept her unneeded hate of them deep down inside herself.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:25 pm
by King Doctor
Night Strike wrote:the school tried to force her to change her religious views to match theirs
Quote the part of the article where it states that the school attempted to change her religious views to match those of the institution.
Another classic piece of 'creative reading' by an angry conservative looking for an axe to grind.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:27 pm
by King Doctor
Night Strike wrote:She was expelled from a graduate program
Yes, for not doing the graduate program properly. But not before being offered the chance of remediation to try and help her.
But of course, that doesn't make good copy for a corporation that makes money by peddling angry half-truths to furious conservatives who desperately want to believe them.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:44 pm
by jonesthecurl
I think this case is analogous to someone taking a catering course, but refsing to cook meat on moral grounds. The asnwer is, find a veggie course. Or a kosher/halal/whatever one if it's religious objections.
Re: Judge Allows Expolsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:45 pm
by Snorri1234
King Doctor wrote:Woodruff wrote:She should not be removed from the program for refusing to counsel homosexual students in my view
She should if it was a part of the program.
Would we pass a student who refused to sit a paper because they didn't like the tone of the question? For example, nutty Holocaust denier studies history, gets kicked off the course for refusing to sit a paper on the impact of the Holocaust; fair or not?
This all sounds to me a lot like knee-jerk whining because she's a Christian. If she was getting kicked out because she refused to counsel, say, tall people because of her Jedi beliefs then nobody would be batting an eye. But because she's a member of the same Sky-Daddy club as Nightstrike, he's all up in arms about it.
What is it was a male muslim and he refused to counsel women?
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:46 pm
by Night Strike
King Doctor wrote:Night Strike wrote:the school tried to force her to change her religious views to match theirs
Quote the part of the article where it states that the school attempted to change her religious views to match those of the institution.
Another classic piece of 'creative reading' by an angry conservative looking for an axe to grind.
You don't read what I post do you?
Ward’s attorneys claim the university told her she would only be allowed to remain in the program if she went through a “remediation” program so that she could “see the error of her ways” and change her belief system about homosexuality.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:49 pm
by King Doctor
Another failure by Nightstrike to read other people's posts.
Again, please post the bit of the article where it says that the school tried to change her religion to match theirs.
They offered to try and help her be more accommodating to homosexuals, but they didn't try to change her religious views.
Also, kind of amusing that the man crying his eyes out at people 'not reading' what he posts, has now avoided the question of how he'd feel about other hypothetical scenarios at least three times.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:49 pm
by AndyDufresne
Burn the witches, burn the witches, peel the bananas?
Where would I get my unnecessary news coverage, if not for the Off Topics forum.
--Andy
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:49 pm
by Incandenza
And of course her attorney is a crystalline font of unmuddied truth.
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm
by jonesthecurl
Re: Judge Allows Expulsion For Religious Beliefs
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:51 pm
by jrl332005
Night Strike wrote:King Doctor wrote:Night Strike wrote:the school tried to force her to change her religious views to match theirs
Quote the part of the article where it states that the school attempted to change her religious views to match those of the institution.
Another classic piece of 'creative reading' by an angry conservative looking for an axe to grind.
You don't read what I post do you?
Ward’s attorneys claim the university told her she would only be allowed to remain in the program if she went through a “remediation” program so that she could “see the error of her ways” and change her belief system about homosexuality.
They were trying to help her overcome her fear/hate of homosexuals, not change her religious beliefs.