Conquer Club

You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

No matter who the President is, the job will always call for them to be somewhat like the last guy. He obviously doesn't support this, but had to do so.

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

Different? Yes. Better? In many ways, but definitely not all. I will say I have not seen where he is worse, but "better than Bush" or "no worse" are very low standards.

Not sure how you got the impression I am some great proponent of Obama. We had to pick from the chioces offered. I liked him better than McCain. Now he is our president. I am happy to discuss various issues about Obama policies, though like all presidents, he is more limited than many people wish to assert.

The problem here is that most of what is put forward as "Obama criticism" (not by you) is plain and simply irrelevant personal attacks, slurs and outright lies. I mean, sure Phatt goes out of his way to be blind, but look at how many people are happy to dance on the bandwagon of "he did not show us his college grades, so he must be hiding something". Very l ittle of it is real and true debate over what he has done.

When issues are debated, it to often winds up being like health care.. "he did pretty much what he said, but we don't like it so we are going to paint him as a big failure and liar for every minute failure...and blame it wholly on him, not congress".

If you look back, while I did not wind up defending Bush very often (compared to Obama, for sure), I defended him on occasion when the rhetoric was too personal, irrelevant, etc. Its just that almost ALL of the "debate" about Obama and, to some extent the Democrats, is not true debate.. its just stupidity. (again, not you specifically).

mviola wrote:He obviously doesn't support this, but had to do so.

You = Kapo?

mviola wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

No matter who the President is, the job will always call for them to be somewhat like the last guy. He obviously doesn't support this, but had to do so.

Why?

thegreekdog wrote:

mviola wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

No matter who the President is, the job will always call for them to be somewhat like the last guy. He obviously doesn't support this, but had to do so.

Why?

I wouldn't use such firm ways of expressing this as mviola has done, but basically it went down like this:

Obama has these hopes and dreams of achieving such promises, then he gets elected. Then the big guys sit him down and explain to him how the earth turns: how the status quo will largely remain the same (mainly thanks to corporate interests), and how many of his ideas of his can't be done, will risk his reelection, or simply will be blocked or prevented.

So he chose probably chose just a handful, and just look at how much resistance is being put up.

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

The health care bill wasn't enough for you to be able to tell the difference between the two? You should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

The health care bill wasn't enough for you to be able to tell the difference between the two? You should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

Passing a law to provide millions of more customers to one's major campaign donors (big insurance mega-corporations) seems very Bush-like to me.

You a Kapo-in-Training, too, Mets?

saxitoxin wrote:

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

The health care bill wasn't enough for you to be able to tell the difference between the two? You should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

Passing a law to provide millions of more customers to one's major campaign donors (big insurance mega-corporations) seems very Bush-like to me.

You a Kapo-in-Training, too, Mets?

I'm pretty sure that you are also one of the people in this forum who does not understand basic politics, so I'm going to ignore this comment as well.

mviola wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

No matter who the President is, the job will always call for them to be somewhat like the last guy. He obviously doesn't support this, but had to do so.

Uh...no. He did not in any way "have to do this". Just like he did not in any way have to continue with The Patriot Act. And where do you get the idea that he "obviously doesn't support this"...it appears quite painfully clear to me that he supports it very much.

Metsfanmax wrote:I'm going to ignore this comment

Based on your past performance, I think that's a good idea.

Metsfanmax wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

The health care bill wasn't enough for you to be able to tell the difference between the two? You should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

Passing a law to provide millions of more customers to one's major campaign donors (big insurance mega-corporations) seems very Bush-like to me.

You a Kapo-in-Training, too, Mets?

I'm pretty sure that you are also one of the people in this forum who does not understand basic politics, so I'm going to ignore this comment as well.

I'm pretty sure that you are also one of the people in this forum who does not understand his left from his right, or what "ignore" means as evidenced by your response to his post

PLAYER57832 wrote:If you look back, while I did not wind up defending Bush very often (compared to Obama, for sure), I defended him on occasion when the rhetoric was too personal, irrelevant, etc.

Based only on what I've seen in these fora (and recognizing that's a terribly small sample size of information)...from my perspective, you fall squarely into the category of "Obama apologist", honestly.

Woodruff wrote:

mviola wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

No matter who the President is, the job will always call for them to be somewhat like the last guy. He obviously doesn't support this, but had to do so.

Uh...no. He did not in any way "have to do this". Just like he did not in any way have to continue with The Patriot Act. And where do you get the idea that he "obviously doesn't support this"...it appears quite painfully clear to me that he supports it very much.

No, the only thing one can glean from this is that he felt that the use of state secrets is important for national security. It has nothing to do with how much he likes having the power.

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

The health care bill wasn't enough for you to be able to tell the difference between the two? You should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

You don't understand the term " pretty difficult"? Given that this is only a single issue in the vast array of issues that the President has acted on, do you really consider that significant? If you do, you should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

mviola wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

No matter who the President is, the job will always call for them to be somewhat like the last guy. He obviously doesn't support this, but had to do so.

Uh...no. He did not in any way "have to do this". Just like he did not in any way have to continue with The Patriot Act. And where do you get the idea that he "obviously doesn't support this"...it appears quite painfully clear to me that he supports it very much.

No, the only thing one can glean from this is that he felt that the use of state secrets is important for national security. It has nothing to do with how much he likes having the power.

I seem to recall Obama going on and on about something called...let's see...what was it, again..."transparency in government"...yeah, I think that's it.

Woodruff wrote:

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

The health care bill wasn't enough for you to be able to tell the difference between the two? You should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

You don't understand the term " pretty difficult"? Given that this is only a single issue in the vast array of issues that the President has acted on, do you really consider that significant? If you do, you should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

Yes. I consider it significant, given that it was Obama's self-intended magnum opus. Even if there weren't a whole host of other issues that separated the two (which there are), this would be enough to make it pretty clear in anyone's mind that the two are different. Bush would never consider doing what Obama did.

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

mviola wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

No matter who the President is, the job will always call for them to be somewhat like the last guy. He obviously doesn't support this, but had to do so.

Uh...no. He did not in any way "have to do this". Just like he did not in any way have to continue with The Patriot Act. And where do you get the idea that he "obviously doesn't support this"...it appears quite painfully clear to me that he supports it very much.

No, the only thing one can glean from this is that he felt that the use of state secrets is important for national security. It has nothing to do with how much he likes having the power.

Kapo - calling "criminal evidence" "state secrets" doesn't make them state secrets anymore than me calling the sky "green" makes it green.

Woodruff wrote:I seem to recall Obama going on and on about something called...let's see...what was it, again..."transparency in government"...yeah, I think that's it.

That's a side-step of the rebuttal. I correctly answered your assertion that Obama "likes" the decision, stating that he only feels it is necessary. You came back with another statement that has nothing to do with how much he likes the decision. Please try something different.

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:You still believe that Obama is different than Bush? Because it's getting pretty difficult for me to be able to tell the difference, frankly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/09/08/obama/index.html

The health care bill wasn't enough for you to be able to tell the difference between the two? You should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

You don't understand the term " pretty difficult"? Given that this is only a single issue in the vast array of issues that the President has acted on, do you really consider that significant? If you do, you should probably stop discussing politics. Permanently.

Yes. I consider it significant, given that it was Obama's self-intended magnum opus. Even if there weren't a whole host of other issues that separated the two (which there are), this would be enough to make it pretty clear in anyone's mind that the two are different. Bush would never consider doing what Obama did.

"A whole host of other issues that separated the two" based on what Obama has SAID or based on what Obama has DONE? Because what he has SAID has not been very telling in regards to what he has DONE.

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:I seem to recall Obama going on and on about something called...let's see...what was it, again..."transparency in government"...yeah, I think that's it.

That's a side-step of the rebuttal. I correctly answered your assertion that Obama "likes" the decision

My assertion? Where did I assert that?

Metsfanmax wrote:stating that he only feels it is necessary. You came back with another statement that has nothing to do with how much he likes the decision. Please try something different.

Please try some accuracy.

Woodruff wrote:"A whole host of other issues that separated the two" based on what Obama has SAID or based on what Obama has DONE? Because what he has SAID has not been very telling in regards to what he has DONE.

Just to name a few

- Actions to end DADT
- Economic stimulus bill
- Stem cell funding
- Ending of the Constellation program

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:"A whole host of other issues that separated the two" based on what Obama has SAID or based on what Obama has DONE? Because what he has SAID has not been very telling in regards to what he has DONE.

Just to name a few

- Actions to end DADT
- Economic stimulus bill
- Stem cell funding
- Ending of the Constellation program

The Kapo named 1 hobbyist distraction (Constellation), one thing held-up in court (stem cell funding), 1 thing that hasn't - and based on Gates indications won't - change (DADT) in more than a cosmetic way and one thing that was absolutely identical to Bush ("stimulus" [AKA bailout of corporate elites]).

This is the challenge of the Kapo. Plump-up the compassion of the guards with little meat with which to grind.

Metsfanmax wrote:Yes. I consider it significant, given that it was Obama's self-intended magnum opus.

His magnum opus was passing a $400 fine? Well, not everyone's an Abe Lincoln, huh, Kapo?

Hey gang! Remember when Obama voted to grant legal immunity to AT&T for warrantless wiretapping then - 10 days later - AT&T made a $1-million donation to his campaign?

I was just reminiscing with this video by Amy Goodman in which she photographs this parade of well-fed, obese, elderly, white, plutocrats from the Democrat hierarchy shriek "no comment!" as they race into an AT&T party tent to line-up at the feeding troughs their corporate master has set-up for them. Memories!

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/25/a ... to_support

Metsfanmax wrote:

Woodruff wrote:"A whole host of other issues that separated the two" based on what Obama has SAID or based on what Obama has DONE? Because what he has SAID has not been very telling in regards to what he has DONE.

Just to name a few
- Actions to end DADT

What has Obama done to end DADT? From what I've seen, the Chiefs of Staff of the military have done more to end DADT than Obama has.

Metsfanmax wrote:- Economic stimulus bill

That's different than what Bush did? How?

Metsfanmax wrote:- Stem cell funding

What did Obama do to get this rolling?

Metsfanmax wrote:- Ending of the Constellation program

That's a negative, not a positive.