Conquer Club

How confident are you in the chain of command? If you were given an order to launch a nuclear missile, could you kill millions? What if the guy in charge was unstable- a Nixon, or (arguably) a Reagan, or even if you thought he was secretly working against the US.

Maj. Harold Hering and the forbidden question that cost him his career.
From the article (which is well worth a read):

"Let's say you were a Minuteman missile crewman during the Richard Nixon presidency at the very height of the Cold War. You and your fellow crewmen are down in your underground launch control center, tending to your sector of the "silo farm"—the vast field under which nuclear missile silos (actually heavily reinforced concrete silo-shaped holes in the ground) shelter the instruments of mass death that lurk beneath the bleak badlands of the northern Great Plains. There you are, running through a drill, going down a routine checklist for launch readiness, when suddenly you get what seems like a real launch order. Not a drill. Get ready to twist your launch keys in their slots and send anywhere from one to 50 missiles rocketing toward Russia. World War III is under way.

Or is it? Your launch order codes are "authenticated," everything seems in order, the seconds tick away. But in what may be the last seconds of your life—for all you know Soviet missiles are about to rain down on the plains—a thought crosses your mind. About "authentication." It's supposed to ensure that the launch order comes from the president himself, or (if the president has been killed) from the surviving head of the nuclear chain of command.

But what about that person at the top of the chain of command, the person who gives the order? Has he been "authenticated"? Who authenticates the authenticator? Can the president start a nuclear war on his own authority—his own whim or will—alone? The way Brigadier Gen. Jack D. Ripper did in Dr. Strangelove? What if a president went off his meds, as we'd say today, and decided to pull a Ripper himself? Or what if a Ripper-type madman succeeded in sending a falsely authenticated launch order? You're about to kill 10 million people, after all."

I would have never taken the job in the first place.

... I know I couldn't do it.

...

Nobunaga wrote:... I know I couldn't do it.

...

It's a really chilling question. This part really bothered me about how we should know nowadays:

"Let's say you're at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming, the place where some mysterious glitch caused 50 missiles to go offline last October. You know the missiles stopped talking to base. Stopped responding to all commands. And you've read about the way the Stuxnet computer worm demonstrated an ability to insinuate itself into the actual control systems of nuclear facilities in Iran and turn them to its own ends."
...
"Should you question the order to launch such an attack, not knowing for sure it doesn't come from a president off his meds? Or a cyberworm disguised as a president?"

I would do it! not even a question.

I doubt I could do it.

But, having said that, if you join the military and get that job, however that happens, you better be damn ready. You have to be able to do it. Because what if it truly is an order from the President himself, and he is in his right mind?

targetman377 wrote:I would do it! not even a question.

... I used to have the same way of thinking... when I liked the President.

... Funny how that works. Just being honest.

Nobunaga wrote:

targetman377 wrote:I would do it! not even a question.

... I used to have the same way of thinking... when I liked the President.

... Funny how that works. Just being honest.

That's completely fair and honest, and comes to the heart of the question. Do you have moral responsibility for launching that missile? Or are you just following orders? What if the President was somehow incapacitated, or you doubted his ability to make a sound judgement? What if you doubted that the order really came from the President?

It comes down to you, the switch, and the death of millions.

The Bison King wrote:I would have never taken the job in the first place.

This.

But assuming there's a dimensional rift and I suddenly find myself in that situation, no I wouldn't do it.

Vicarious

Humanity needs to watch things die

Haggis_McMutton wrote:

The Bison King wrote:I would have never taken the job in the first place.

This.

But assuming there's a dimensional rift and I suddenly find myself in that situation, no I wouldn't do it.

I wasn't sure how to reply to Bison- I don't know if he means joining the army generally, or becoming someone in charge of launching a missile. I have no idea how the process even works once you've joined.

Nobunaga wrote:

targetman377 wrote:I would do it! not even a question.

... I used to have the same way of thinking... when I liked the President.

... Funny how that works. Just being honest.

your job is not to question the decisions that are made up top you do not have all the information you would not launch it? (since you are deep underground you probably don't know anything that's going on besides the orders given to you) how can you say that you would not do it not knowing what is truly going on? this has nothing to do with i agree with the president.

targetman377 wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

targetman377 wrote:I would do it! not even a question.

... I used to have the same way of thinking... when I liked the President.

... Funny how that works. Just being honest.

your job is not to question the decisions that are made up top you do not have all the information you would not launch it? (since you are deep underground you probably don't know anything that's going on besides the orders given to you) how can you say that you would not do it not knowing what is truly going on? this has nothing to do with i agree with the president.

I don't give a shit what's going on. I will not kill 1 man without a very good reason to do so, I sure as hell won't kill a couple million people cause someone told me to.

Good thing I haven't got the slightest inclination to join the army I guess.

If you were ordered to kill your entire family, would you? Orders ? Yeah, bite me.

i hope you all never join the army

targetman377 wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

targetman377 wrote:I would do it! not even a question.

... I used to have the same way of thinking... when I liked the President.

... Funny how that works. Just being honest.

your job is not to question the decisions that are made up top you do not have all the information you would not launch it? (since you are deep underground you probably don't know anything that's going on besides the orders given to you) how can you say that you would not do it not knowing what is truly going on? this has nothing to do with i agree with the president.

Look, this is an argument that was always going to come up, and I'll be the first to break Godwin's law. You sound like you're invoking the Nuremberg defense. I think there's ground in between, and I don't see personal morality as separate from duty and obligation.

Symmetry wrote:

Haggis_McMutton wrote:

The Bison King wrote:I would have never taken the job in the first place.

This.

But assuming there's a dimensional rift and I suddenly find myself in that situation, no I wouldn't do it.

I wasn't sure how to reply to Bison- I don't know if he means joining the army generally, or becoming someone in charge of launching a missile. I have no idea how the process even works once you've joined.

I would never join the army, period. Also, army aside, I do the best in my life to avoid situations where I am a tool of a greater power (it's kind of hard to do in todays society). I feel most comfortable in situations where I have power over my own decisions. I'll leave dogmatic key turning to dogmatic people. There's more than enough people who are willing to surrender their lives to the US government, so thankfully I don't have to be one of them.

The Bison King wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

Haggis_McMutton wrote:

The Bison King wrote:I would have never taken the job in the first place.

This.

But assuming there's a dimensional rift and I suddenly find myself in that situation, no I wouldn't do it.

I wasn't sure how to reply to Bison- I don't know if he means joining the army generally, or becoming someone in charge of launching a missile. I have no idea how the process even works once you've joined.

I would never join the army, period. Also, army aside, I do the best in my life to avoid situations where I am a tool of a greater power (it's kind of hard to do in todays society). I feel most comfortable in situations where I have power over my own decisions. I'll leave dogmatic key turning to dogmatic people. There's more than enough people who are willing to surrender their lives to the US government, so thankfully I don't have to be one of them.

Then you truly have no respect for the country that you call home! (sometimes in defense of your country and you fellow citizens you must set aside your personal beliefs.!)

targetman377 wrote:

The Bison King wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

Haggis_McMutton wrote:

The Bison King wrote:I would have never taken the job in the first place.

This.

But assuming there's a dimensional rift and I suddenly find myself in that situation, no I wouldn't do it.

I wasn't sure how to reply to Bison- I don't know if he means joining the army generally, or becoming someone in charge of launching a missile. I have no idea how the process even works once you've joined.

I would never join the army, period. Also, army aside, I do the best in my life to avoid situations where I am a tool of a greater power (it's kind of hard to do in todays society). I feel most comfortable in situations where I have power over my own decisions. I'll leave dogmatic key turning to dogmatic people. There's more than enough people who are willing to surrender their lives to the US government, so thankfully I don't have to be one of them.

Then you truly have no respect for the country that you call home! (sometimes in defense of your country and you fellow citizens you must set aside your personal beliefs.!)

Is there genuinely nothing you wouldn't do if you received an order to do it? And would you always have absolute confidence the order was genuine?

If there was ever a draft, I'd flee the country. Me and the army just isn't happening. That said, I would refuse to press the button because of the deaths it would cause, and the nuclear war that would follow.

Symmetry wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:

targetman377 wrote:I would do it! not even a question.

... I used to have the same way of thinking... when I liked the President.

... Funny how that works. Just being honest.

That's completely fair and honest, and comes to the heart of the question. Do you have moral responsibility for launching that missile? Or are you just following orders? What if the President was somehow incapacitated, or you doubted his ability to make a sound judgement? What if you doubted that the order really came from the President?
It comes down to you, the switch, and the death of millions.

First of all, yes you absolutely have the moral responsibility for launching that missile, just as the individual giving you the order does. There is no "just following orders" bullshit. So my answer is that, if in my judgement the order came from sound reasoning and necessity, I would follow the order (recognizing the guilt that would come with that choice). If I felt the order was illegal/irrational (recognizing the punishment that would follow for my choice), I would not follow it.

targetman377 wrote:your job is not to question the decisions that are made up top

Wrong, wrong and absolutely wrong. In fact, the military itself teaches you that this is wrong (outside of field battle conditions).

targetman377 wrote:you do not have all the information you would not launch it? (since you are deep underground you probably don't know anything that's going on besides the orders given to you)

It's absolutely true that you almost certainly do not have all the information available. You still have the responsibility.

your a soldier! and as such you are trained to not question the supreme authority of your officers! Yes i understand that might be hard for you to understand i wish an army veteran should come in this thread and share there experiences. Yes being a solider means you have to make tough choices but with out people to do that you would not be able to sit ideal by and express your freedoms that were gained by soldiers with more honer and bravery than any of you people have! God bless our soldiers.

If you question the order to launch that missile, are you not questioning your very purpose in your position? What use is it to have someone in the position of nuke launcher who doubts their ability to launch the nukes?

mviola wrote:If there was ever a draft, I'd flee the country. Me and the army just isn't happening.

You say that, but based on what I have seen of you in the fora, I don't believe that is true. First of all, if a draft is ever again initiated, it means that our country is near to losing the war/being overrun...that is just a fact. I believe that you would recognize the necessity in joining under those circumstances. Secondly, you really never know what you'll do in that sort of a situation until you're presented with it. I've occasionally been absolutely amazed at reactions I've had to situations that I had always believed I knew exactly how I would react.