Conquer Club

Gypsys Kiss wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:Oh, this is a rich argument... "what about people who support the IRA, who are white? why aren't we outraged by them?" Who says we're not? And when was the last time someone from the IRA killed 12 people on a US military base or flew planes into two buildings on US soil? Jackasses, the lot of you.

Who said anything about being white, Jackass. Catholic was the point, Jackass. Ignorant comments like that do you no favours, Jackass. My family is from Manchester, try googling it along with the IRA, Jackass.

See where I said "when was the last time someone from the IRA killed people on a US military base or flew planes into two buildings on US soil"? That's why IN THE F1CKING UNITED STATES we don't give a flying f1ck about the IRA right now!

JACKASS!

Just kidding, I love you buddy.

bedub1 wrote:Liberals will blame the war, the army, the gun, the PTSD, the discrimination he faced because he was muslim, his recruiter, the guys that reviewed his online postings, etc etc etc.

Realists will blame the jackass that killed everybody.

Nope. On the first thing, at least. We just think that there are lessons we can take from this besides, "Evil people SUCK."

bedub1 wrote:Liberals will blame the war, the army, the gun, the PTSD, the discrimination he faced because he was muslim, his recruiter, the guys that reviewed his online postings, etc etc etc.

Realists will blame the jackass that killed everybody.

Except of course that it isn't about blame but about cause and how to do something about that cause.

whoever is the first jackass to claim "It's not his fault" should be executed.

bedub1 wrote:whoever is the first jackass to claim "It's not his fault" should be executed.

a) nobody's said that it's not Hasan's fault, he should be and will be prosecuted for the lives he stole. But again, not examining why he committed this atrocity (besides blaming it on Islam, as your ilk are wont to do) just means this will happen again.

b) seriously dude, you are INSANELY quick to call for the execution of people who express an opinion contrary to yours. Move to Iran, you'll fit in fine.

c) Good article articulating my thoughts on this

Spurgistan, what if we blamed it on radical Islamic terrorism? Would that be okay? Or are we limited to blaming it on something that does not negatively affect another group of people?

thegreekdog wrote:Spurgistan, what if we blamed it on radical Islamic terrorism? Would that be okay? Or are we limited to blaming it on something that does not negatively affect another group of people?

If it's islamic terrorism it's okay. What some people here are saying is that jumping to conclusions isn't a good thing. At the moment there is no reason to assume he was a radical muslim. Perhaps there will come further evidence for things but now the "DIRTY ISLAM TERRORIST"-angle is supported by a.)his name and b.)some normal post.

thegreekdog wrote:Spurgistan, what if we blamed it on radical Islamic terrorism? Would that be okay? Or are we limited to blaming it on something that does not negatively affect another group of people?

The point is he may just be a sick man at the end of his tether. That he is a Muslim does not make him a radical Islamic terrorist.




Oh and I love you too, dude.

thegreekdog wrote:Spurgistan, what if we blamed it on radical Islamic terrorism? Would that be okay? Or are we limited to blaming it on something that does not negatively affect another group of people?

No, blaming it on radical Islamic terrorism (which, as far as I know, no proof has emerged, yet) at this point, just like blaming it on PTSD at this point, is frankly irresponsible. If an investigation yields that Hasan, like so many PTSD sufferers, was not treated for his disorder, and that his lack of treatment was what led him to cruelly murder 12 people, I would hope that that would lead to action as far as properly treating PTSD goes. I'm pretty sure I elucidated that I have no sympathy for this man, and no desire to "blame" this on anybody but Hasan. Saying that we should take lessons from this (again, besides "Evil people suck") is not akin to saying that, apparently, the man who would have appeared to murder his comrades is not fully to blame for his actions. To reiterate, I'd much prefer to hold off on talking about possible motives until some professionally conducted investigation has taken place. Is that clearer?

spurgistan wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:Spurgistan, what if we blamed it on radical Islamic terrorism? Would that be okay? Or are we limited to blaming it on something that does not negatively affect another group of people?

No, blaming it on radical Islamic terrorism (which, as far as I know, no proof has emerged, yet) at this point, just like blaming it on PTSD at this point, is frankly irresponsible. If an investigation yields that Hasan, like so many PTSD sufferers, was not treated for his disorder, and that his lack of treatment was what led him to cruelly murder 12 people, I would hope that that would lead to action as far as properly treating PTSD goes. I'm pretty sure I elucidated that I have no sympathy for this man, and no desire to "blame" this on anybody but Hasan. Saying that we should take lessons from this (again, besides "Evil people suck") is not akin to saying that, apparently, the man who would have appeared to murder his comrades is not fully to blame for his actions. To reiterate, I'd much prefer to hold off on talking about possible motives until some professionally conducted investigation has taken place. Is that clearer?

Yep, and I agree.

Camp Liberty killings

I think that this case its similar to hood massacre,only number its low.
Why in America have so many Kiling incident?
This not only hepend in Army,this hepend in school also. Maybe its answer that people can get weapons very easy. In mine country,you can not get so easy weapons.
I realy can not remember,that this hepend in our army.

Cleaning products are even easier to get. And instructions on the internet are pretty accessible too.
Having access to the means is not an explanation at all.

The problem is in American society in general.
So many in this country have a deeply ingrained sense of entitlement, especially teenagers. Also, many young people put each other and themselves under constant pressure to conform, to preform, to fit in in so many pointless ways far beyond what most more mature people expect of those around them.
If you excel in their eyes, you will be placed on a pedestal so others can judge each other and expect them to emulate you. If the one made popular is an ass or becomes an ass from the attention, it gets really bad.
If you are different, do not meet their standards, or are just an unknown quantity, they will be singled out and treated with extreme prejudice.
Kids can be really nasty, school can be simply unforgiving and brutal. And the reaction to this by those targeted enough is just as powerful.
Many adults do nothing about about this, if they even notice it in front of them.


The other problem is that as we have a border with Mexico and Canada that can be infiltrated so easily we cannot control what goods or people enter the US.
[DISCLAIMER] That is not an indication of my views on the state of American borders or what we should do. I was pointing out that we do not have much control over what comes in and out of this country[/DISCLAIMER]

I don't think this explains the high incidence of PTSD, suicides, murders, homelessness, and domestic violence within our military and among our veterans.

GabonX wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

GrimReaper. wrote:My thoughts and prayers go out to all soldiers and families of soldiers who wher killed or wounded during the Shooting at Fort Hood Texas today
11 soldiers killed
1 gunman killed
31 wounded
2 in custody
possibly more gunman
if you want to learn more check the news. It's all over CNN

Absolutely. I'm very curious about the two who were arrested, and what they might or might not have been involved in.

Sadly, there will be some who will make this out to be a Muslim thing (which I'm pretty sure it is not), rather than the PTSD thing it almost certainly is.

'

You hear a story like this and your initial reaction is "this can't be a Muslim thing, don't call it a Muslim thing."? Personally my mind doesn't jump to a conclusion one way or the other before I have the facts.

Where did you get the idea that was my initial reaction?

GabonX wrote:Your initial reaction is actually quite telling...

Your presumption of my initial reaction is actually quite telling...

What I find MOST fascinating about it is that he was apparently a psychologist (unless that has changed with new information, as well).

thegreekdog wrote: In any event, I'm uncertain why it's a bad thing for people to label this the act of a Mulsim extremist (if that is, in fact, what it is).

I personally have no problem at all with that label, so long as it comes after the investigation and is accurate based on those findings. It's the knee-jerk reaction in that manner that I have a problem with.

Borderdawg wrote: I don't believe this puke has ever deployed, thus PTSD isn't a factor. And, unfortunately, I think he is still alive.

That isn't NECESSARILY true. One CAN experience PTSD related to having things described to them. Obviously, that's not nearly as severe of an experience of PTSD, no argument...and it's certainly no justification for what this guy did. But it's not necessarily true that he couldn't experience PTSD even without deploying, given that he is apparently a psychologist.

Now how he REMAINED a psychologist for the military (or anyone else) if the stories of his online postings is true would be a fine "next investigation", because someone wasn't doing their job there.

bedub1 wrote:Liberals will blame the war, the army, the gun, the PTSD, the discrimination he faced because he was muslim, his recruiter, the guys that reviewed his online postings, etc etc etc.
Realists will blame the jackass that killed everybody.

So which liberals in this thread haven't blamed the individual again? Because I don't believe I've overlooked any posts, but I don't recall that happening.

The gunman himself was shot four times and was reported last night to be unconscious and on a ventilator in a nearby hospital

Spray him with pig's blood and pull the freakin' plug, then he can rot in hell where he belongs.

bedub1 wrote:Liberals will blame the war, the army, the gun, the PTSD, the discrimination he faced because he was muslim, his recruiter, the guys that reviewed his online postings, etc etc etc.

Realists will blame the jackass that killed everybody.

Blame is not the same as excusing. Burying your head in the sand, saying "well, too bad, but I would never do THAT" means you ignore real problems that could have been prevented. There are 2 crimes here. Absolutely, the guy who killed 13 people. However, there is also blame for those who were in a position to recognize problems and did nothing.

The killer will be locked away for a good long time, if not executed. The damage is done and cannot be undone. The others, however ... they are still out there. Unless they change, they will ignore more people, will fail to recognize signs they ought and it will happen again.

THAT is why the focus on the why and how. It has nothing to do with "excusing" his behavior.

And this is not about being liberal or Muslim or anything else but insanity and stress and how the millitary deal with it. There have been many improvements since the 1950's, but there is still a long way to go. We owe it to the soldiers that put their lives on the line for us all.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

bedub1 wrote:Liberals will blame the war, the army, the gun, the PTSD, the discrimination he faced because he was muslim, his recruiter, the guys that reviewed his online postings, etc etc etc.

Realists will blame the jackass that killed everybody.

Blame is not the same as excusing. Burying your head in the sand, saying "well, too bad, but I would never do THAT" means you ignore real problems that could have been prevented. There are 2 crimes here. Absolutely, the guy who killed 13 people. However, there is also blame for those who were in a position to recognize problems and did nothing.

The killer will be locked away for a good long time, if not executed. The damage is done and cannot be undone. The others, however ... they are still out there. Unless they change, they will ignore more people, will fail to recognize signs they ought and it will happen again.

THAT is why the focus on the why and how. It has nothing to do with "excusing" his behavior.

And this is not about being liberal or Muslim or anything else but insanity and stress and how the millitary deal with it. There have been many improvements since the 1950's, but there is still a long way to go. We owe it to the soldiers that put their lives on the line for us all.

Keep thinking you can prevent everything dude.
Many improvements since the 1950's?
Check the kill/death ratio dumbass...the info is out there.
You'll find some interesting info.
And let's not try and argue access to weapons, they were easier to get then.

sexyflanders wrote:

moved response to another thread... off topic.

Snorri1234 wrote:

Nobunaga wrote:
... Only if they are posting messages sympathizing with mass murderers.

... Try to pay attention.

...

He said supporting the IRA...

are you paying attention??

... He said:

In which case you would have to exclude Irish Americans from the military in case they support the IRA.

... Meaning, exclude them all because they MIGHT support the IRA.

... Ridiculous comparison, but that was the point, I think.

...

nesterdude wrote: Keep thinking you can prevent everything dude.

The only likely way to actually prevent something is by acting on the belief that you might be able to.

nesterdude wrote: Many improvements since the 1950's?

Absolutely, there have been.

nesterdude wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

bedub1 wrote:Liberals will blame the war, the army, the gun, the PTSD, the discrimination he faced because he was muslim, his recruiter, the guys that reviewed his online postings, etc etc etc.

Realists will blame the jackass that killed everybody.

Blame is not the same as excusing. Burying your head in the sand, saying "well, too bad, but I would never do THAT" means you ignore real problems that could have been prevented. There are 2 crimes here. Absolutely, the guy who killed 13 people. However, there is also blame for those who were in a position to recognize problems and did nothing.

The killer will be locked away for a good long time, if not executed. The damage is done and cannot be undone. The others, however ... they are still out there. Unless they change, they will ignore more people, will fail to recognize signs they ought and it will happen again.

THAT is why the focus on the why and how. It has nothing to do with "excusing" his behavior.

And this is not about being liberal or Muslim or anything else but insanity and stress and how the millitary deal with it. There have been many improvements since the 1950's, but there is still a long way to go. We owe it to the soldiers that put their lives on the line for us all.

Keep thinking you can prevent everything dude.
Many improvements since the 1950's?

Failure of the military to deal with mental illness are extremely well documented. Even the brass have long acknowledged a problem. And the mental health profession as a whole has improved a lot since the 1950's. The military is a partial reflection of society in that.

nesterdude wrote:Check the kill/death ratio dumbass...the info is out there.
You'll find some interesting info.
And let's not try and argue access to weapons, they were easier to get then.

I fail to see how either point is relevant to my comments. A lot of things were different in the 1950's. We were involved in Korea, but while I don't want to minimize the difficulties of that war ("bloody bucket" anyone?), the stresses were quite different and, in many ways less intense. NOT understanding your enemy, etc has its advantages.

As for access to weapons... that was an off-topic comment that has nothing to do with this. I moved it. I was merely correcting some misinformation, not arguing any relevance to the above incident.

Woodruff wrote:

thegreekdog wrote: In any event, I'm uncertain why it's a bad thing for people to label this the act of a Mulsim extremist (if that is, in fact, what it is).

I personally have no problem at all with that label, so long as it comes after the investigation and is accurate based on those findings. It's the knee-jerk reaction in that manner that I have a problem with.

Also, too many people find it all too easy to leave off the "extremist" or even the "insane" bit. The importance of this is not (as bedub tries to claim we hae said) that it in any way excuses his behavior, it is that these things set him apart from other Moslems in this country, other people who are Arabs, etc.

That is why I used the "Christian-KKK" parallel. I certainly have no sympathy for the KKK, but their actions do not reflect my faith. This guy's actions are not a reflection of Islam. Attack this guy, be angry with him. Just don't expand that to Moslems in general.

Beyond that, this guy was born and raised in the US. He was as American as most of us. It means it is a US problem, not a "foreign terrorist" problem as has also been alluded.

neanderpaul14 wrote:

The gunman himself was shot four times and was reported last night to be unconscious and on a ventilator in a nearby hospital

Spray him with pig's blood and pull the freakin' plug, then he can rot in hell where he belongs.

OH NO! But then we'd miss out on the entertaining trial and other following tid-bits of news!!

neanderpaul14 wrote:

The gunman himself was shot four times and was reported last night to be unconscious and on a ventilator in a nearby hospital

Spray him with pig's blood and pull the freakin' plug, then he can rot in hell where he belongs.

Holy shit we agree on something.....

BigBallinStalin wrote:

neanderpaul14 wrote:

The gunman himself was shot four times and was reported last night to be unconscious and on a ventilator in a nearby hospital

Spray him with pig's blood and pull the freakin' plug, then he can rot in hell where he belongs.

OH NO! But then we'd miss out on the entertaining trial and other following tid-bits of news!!

We should put this on pay-per-view. "Monday Night Reeeehabilitation!"