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Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:52 am

The thread on forum PC got me wondering - we all know that moderators need to be accountable for their actions, but how is this balance best served.
There are a few main groups that mods need to be accountable to: the admins, the users, the other mods and the monkeys.

How is the balance struck?
If the mods were only accountable to the admins, it wouldn't really be "community-managed". If the mods were only accountable to the users, there could be a problem of 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.

Mods being accountable to each other is important. At the end of the day, Night Strike and dako (random names) need to be able to both say: "I'm on Team CC, and proud of it".

All mods have to be ordained ministers to the word of the monkey god.

Being accountable to the admins is probably the easiest check - if blakebowling thinks I don't represent Team CC, I'm gone, simple as that.
Being accountable to other mods is also pretty easy. We have well-defined responsibilities, and where they do overlap, we are able to discuss any differences. This accountability goes on behind the scenes.

How do you think accountability to users a)has been previously established b)should be established?

Or do you think it doesn't matter that much?
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Re: Moderator Accountability: An Oxymoron on CC

Postby owenshooter on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:06 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:How do you think accountability to users a)has been previously established b)should be established?

Or do you think it doesn't matter that much?

*snicker*... hang on... i really can't stop laughing... this is a site with a mod that went nuts and waged a war on users before turning on the site itself and tried to destroy it.. a site where a mod faked her own death on the way out and handed out bans to people that openly questioned her, which were not reveresed... a site where a mod used C&A to his advantage to gain points and nothing happened... a site where a mod recently cheated to get to the top of the scoreboard, and nothing happened... the examples of mod abuse on this site go on and on and on and on, just ask anyone that has been around for a few years or a couple of months... i just don't think you can have a discussion using the two words "mod" and "accountability" pertaining to this site. it is an oxymoron... the black jesus has ended the thread...-el Jesus negro
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:13 pm

Particular mods might be influenced by particular users (e.g. their 'internet friends') because mods are human. They're not impartial cyborgs who distribute cold plates of Justice.

From my experience, mods generally aren't influenced by the 'Community'--unless you mean, the 'loud minority on the forums', then sure, but it varies by subforum. For example, OT has very loose moderation because the OT community has pushed for that. C&A has very tight moderation, and that was mostly a mod-admin decision.

In general, influence from other mods and admins are the two overwhelming factors; however, the users' expectations of mods can influence the way mods behave, but this occurs only in some subfora and is usually reactionary (which can be easily ignored if mods aren't held accountable). This is like having the fox guard the henhouse (i.e. government oversees its own enforcement).


As far as accountability goes, I pretty much agree with el Jesus negro, and this again reinforces the point that influence from the community is not nearly as strong as mod-admin influence on mods.
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:33 pm

Moderators should be accountable to the rules of Conquer Club. I think that's pretty simple.

But, as the black jesus points out, perhaps they have not been in the past.

EDIT - I guess I should point out that I was a global moderator and was accountable to, in order: (1) The rules; (2) the community (OT mostly); and (3) admin. I suspect popular opinion is that moderator accountability is the opposite of that (i.e. (1) admin, (2) community, (3) the rules). That's okay because, well, people don't like the police, but it really isn't as bad as people think it is.
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby owenshooter on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:33 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Moderators should be accountable to the rules of Conquer Club. I think that's pretty simple.

But, as the black jesus points out, perhaps they have not been in the past.

EDIT - I guess I should point out that I was a global moderator and was accountable to, in order: (1) The rules; (2) the community (OT mostly); and (3) admin. I suspect popular opinion is that moderator accountability is the opposite of that (i.e. (1) admin, (2) community, (3) the rules). That's okay because, well, people don't like the police, but it really isn't as bad as people think it is.

i would like to point out that i always considered you a fair moderator that did a good job. That was one of the reasons we recruited you to the Bandits, you were just a stand up guy in a sea of hypocrisy... the black jesus has spoken...-el JEsus negro
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby BoganGod on Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:10 pm

Further proof that General Discussion is dead, and people with funny coloured names killed it. Thread rebranding...... boom, boom, tishe doom. Agree with the dark hued fake jesus. Admin should also be accountable or start handing out refunds. Blake is a sensitive little flower who in my experience should maybe spend less time being punitive against those that highlight some of the misadventures in coding land, and more time coding. Of course as a God I reserve the right to judge people without mercy. I'm sure blake is trying, and would do better with a lot more help. Maybe if the black sheep mods help blake rather than cheat/abuse the community they elected to serve.......

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@owen - black sheep is not a racial slur
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby Shannon Apple on Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:52 pm

Meh, people will always complain about moderators no matter what. It's something I've picked up from my own experience. Sometimes you get a user who was 100% wrong and twists things to make the mods look bad. Usually that's obvious to the community and reasonable people ignore that user anyway, so it rarely causes a big issue. However, I do agree that some mods can be tools and I have seen some things happen on CC that says that the mods here are no exception. Most mods are pretty cool though, several of them in my own clan. <3 If you look at it from another angle though, they are members too, they aren't infallible and they can sometimes make mistakes like everyone else. Isolated incidents happen, and it really shouldn't be held against them. It's when someone repeatedly acts a certain way that I am thinking "hey, wait a minute, this person shouldn't really be a mod."

I honestly haven't seen anything to suggest that moderators here have done anything to stifle discussion in this section. I mean, the only time I have seen threads locked is when users are openly flame-baiting someone else like in Gweedo's recent threads. (yes rhp1, I use those nerd terms too :P ) Is that the kind of activity that people honestly want? It's certainly not the kind of thing that attracts new activity, just gives the resident trolls something to do.

It's pretty much like this.
1. Rules First. Don't bend the rules yourself if you honestly expect people to follow your example, or respect your position. (That's where accountability starts rearing it's head.)
2. If you're totally sick of moderating fools, take a break from the "job" before you start taking it out on people. *ahem*accountability
3. Don't reprimand someone that you have a personal issue with, give it to someone else to deal with, so threads don't pop up about biased abuse of power.
4. Learn to laugh at stupidity rather than get super angry at people in public.
5. If you just want people to love you and think having a pretty name is cool, don't become a moderator, because you'll be disappointed. :lol:

I am only speaking here from my own personal experience outside of CC on those points, but generally if you keep a certain set of guidelines for yourself, there should be no being held accountable by anyone, because there won't be any reason to. lol. As Greekdog put it: Rules first. Haha, hats off to those that mod this forum because there are some very strange personalities around here. I do understand why Teegee is, you know, a few biscuits short of a packet. It's the long term exposure. BUT, we love him anyway. :lol:
Last edited by Shannon Apple on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby rhp 1 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:04 pm

Shannon Apple wrote:Meh, people will always complain about moderators no matter what. It's something I've picked up from my own experience. Sometimes you get a user who was 100% wrong and twists things to make the mods look bad. Usually that's obvious to the community and reasonable people ignore that user anyway, so it rarely causes a big issue. However, I do agree that some mods can be tools and I have seen some things happen on CC that says that the mods here are no exception. Most mods are pretty cool though, several of them in my own clan. <3 If you look at it from another angle though, they are members too, they aren't infallible and they can sometimes make mistakes like everyone else. Isolated incidents happen, and it really shouldn't be held against them. It's when someone repeatedly acts a certain way that I am thinking "hey, wait a minute, this person shouldn't really be a mod."

I honestly haven't seen anything to suggest that moderators here have done anything to stifle discussion in this section. I mean, the only time I have seen threads locked is when users are openly flame-baiting someone else like in Gweedo's recent threads. (yes rhp1, I use those nerd terms too :P ) Is that the kind of activity that people honestly want? It's certainly not the kind of thing that attracts new activity, just gives the resident trolls something to do.

It's pretty much like this.
1. Rules First. Don't bend the rules yourself if you honestly expect people to follow your example, or respect your position. (That's where accountability starts rearing it's head.)
2. If you're totally sick of moderating fools, take a break from the "job" before you start taking it out on people. *ahem*accountability
3. Don't reprimand someone that you have a personal issue with, give it to someone else to deal with, so threads don't pop up about biased abuse of power.
4. Learn to laugh at stupidity rather than get super angry at people in public.
5. If you just want people to love you and think having a pretty name is cool, don't become a moderator, because you'll be disappointed. :lol:

I am only speaking here from my own personal experience outside of CC on those points, but generally if you keep a certain set of guidelines, there should be no being held accountable by anyone, because there won't be any reason to. lol. As Greekdog put it: Rules first. Haha, hats off to those that do mod this forum because there are some very strange personalities around here. I do understand why Teegee is, you know, a few biscuits short of a packet. It's the long term exposure. BUT, we love him anyway. :lol:



I agree with most of this by Shannon..

many mods I've come to "know" seem to be really cool people... Swiffer, Trini, Jane to name a few... when there are issues with mods, it's often one of a few things... like shannon said, the user twisting things to support their position.. decisions by mods made in haste and no willingness on the part of the mod to take the time to look at possible incorrect decisions (I mean.. it's a gaming site, I wouldn't take all that much time either)... and sometimes it's a mod who has an opinion of a certain player and bases their actions on this perception (sometimes that can't be helped)... generally I think most mods do a decent job... the worst mods? tend to be emotional, young (or very young) and look for positions such as this to flex their online muscles and generally have an attitude of "I'm a mod, I'll do what I want"... that's fine by me.. whatever..
I guess my thing is, the rules themselves are kind of funny.. "flaming, baiting, etc"... I mean.. seriously? people's feelings get that hurt by reading typed words? LOL. I'll always hold the position that if you don't like something, stop reading it.. click on a different link.. click on a different topic.. or just foe the person as to not read what they wrote... to have mods enforce what people say on here is fairly comical in and of itself... it generally creates more problems than it solves
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby Shannon Apple on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:15 pm

I do respect that opinion rhp, but, believe it or not, it's the flaming/trolling that kills websites. If you just let people "have at it" in the public forums, members start leaving because they no longer want to be associated with the site. People are all different, some have thicker skins than others. Some can switch off, while others can't. New people won't join if they've been lurking the forums because it looks like a lion's den. I have seen this happen twice in my time. Soon enough it becomes a case of every new member being chased off the forums by the veterans because it's a funny thing to do. You can't really pick and choose which flaming to punish, so you end all of it as it happens. It's like growing a fruit tree. If you don't keep it pruned, it will grow wild and produce bad fruit. Same with a forum, if you don't regulate it, there will be no forums at all worth keeping around. :)
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby rhp 1 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:17 pm

Shannon Apple wrote:I do respect that opinion rhp, but, believe it or not, it's the flaming/trolling that kills websites. If you just let people "have at it" in the public forums, members start leaving because they no longer want to be associated with the site. New people won't join if they've been lurking the forums because it looks like a lion's den. I have seen this happen twice in my time. Soon enough it becomes a case of every new member being chased off the forums by the veterans because it's a funny thing to do. You can't really pick and choose which flaming to punish, so you end all of it as it happens. It's like growing a fruit tree. If you don't keep it pruned, it will grow wild and produce bad fruit. Same with a forum, if you don't regulate it, there will be no forums at all worth keeping around. :)


Point taken Shan... I don't personally have a problem with it... and you make a solid point in support of regulating it... I guess I just find it funny is all... I forget how many mentally weak people wander around the world at any given time... that's my fault
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby Shannon Apple on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:19 pm

LOL. You only need to look around CC. ;)
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby rhp 1 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:19 pm

and TeeGee is a dude? I was shocked
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby TeeGee on Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:21 pm

rhp 1 wrote:and TeeGee is a dude? I was shocked


Just don't tell my wife and kids ;) hahaha

I don't even thin of a persons gender when reading the forums. But that is another topic all together.

As for moderator accountability, I think everyone needs to start looking at moderators as site assistants and not site police. In fact very few moderators have the ability to police the forums or games and even fewer can do both.

Since I took on the role of head global 6 months ago, I have instructed the global and discussion moderators to take a much more relaxed approach to forum moderation. I am not 100% convinced this was always the best choice.I have noticed some forum members push it to extremes,seeing how far I can be pushed and others lose interest realizing I wasn't going to play their games, but the last 6 months have seen the fewest amount of forum bans and warnings handed out that I can recollect and that is something I am very happy to see.

I am open to suggestions and advice on which way to take the forums into the future. My inbox always has space so feel free to send me a PM with your thoughts.
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby Serbia on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:53 am

TeeGee wrote:
rhp 1 wrote:and TeeGee is a dude? I was shocked


Just don't tell my wife and kids ;) hahaha

I don't even thin of a persons gender when reading the forums. But that is another topic all together.

As for moderator accountability, I think everyone needs to start looking at moderators as site assistants and not site police. In fact very few moderators have the ability to police the forums or games and even fewer can do both.

Since I took on the role of head global 6 months ago, I have instructed the global and discussion moderators to take a much more relaxed approach to forum moderation. I am not 100% convinced this was always the best choice.I have noticed some forum members push it to extremes,seeing how far I can be pushed and others lose interest realizing I wasn't going to play their games, but the last 6 months have seen the fewest amount of forum bans and warnings handed out that I can recollect and that is something I am very happy to see.

I am open to suggestions and advice on which way to take the forums into the future. My inbox always has space so feel free to send me a PM with your thoughts.


TeeGee, I for one think the moderation has been handled very well, and that you've been an excellent Head Global. Keep up the good work!

Bollocks.
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby rhp 1 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:42 am

TeeGee wrote:
rhp 1 wrote:and TeeGee is a dude? I was shocked


Just don't tell my wife and kids ;) hahaha

I don't even thin of a persons gender when reading the forums. But that is another topic all together.

As for moderator accountability, I think everyone needs to start looking at moderators as site assistants and not site police. In fact very few moderators have the ability to police the forums or games and even fewer can do both.

Since I took on the role of head global 6 months ago, I have instructed the global and discussion moderators to take a much more relaxed approach to forum moderation. I am not 100% convinced this was always the best choice.I have noticed some forum members push it to extremes,seeing how far I can be pushed and others lose interest realizing I wasn't going to play their games, but the last 6 months have seen the fewest amount of forum bans and warnings handed out that I can recollect and that is something I am very happy to see.

I am open to suggestions and advice on which way to take the forums into the future. My inbox always has space so feel free to send me a PM with your thoughts.



if this is the case, it seems to, in some small way, support my opinion, though not scientific and obviously short term.. if TG has taken a (generally) more relaxed approached in forum policing, and we still have the same weirdos and less forum bans, then perhaps people don't jump ship as fast and new ones don't leave as quickly as you once surmised Shannon? I don't know...long term, you're probably right though...
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Re: Moderator Accountability: An Oxymoron

Postby owenshooter on Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:04 pm

rhp 1 wrote:perhaps people don't jump ship as fast and new ones don't leave as quickly as you once surmised Shannon? I don't know...long term, you're probably right though...

less than 1% of CC members visit the forums... i don't think anything in the forums has much to do with member retention... that is another issue i have with the way the forum bans are handled vs. actual cheaters in the game... forum bans are much more harsh for something that less than 1% of the CC community will ever see, while cheating in the game can affect the entire leader board (as we have seen with a few recent conquerors being busted due to cheating)... just my two cents... the black jesus has spoken...-el Jesus negro
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby universalchiro on Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:35 pm

Come for the games, stay for the forums. Enjoy the discussions with players around the world in Off Topic forum. Ooops, scratch that, the forum is controlled by a band of derailers. Just come for the games (hope that's enough to increase member count).
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby The Voice on Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:48 pm

Many locked threads are done so for good reason, especially high profile C&A cases or a case that Shannon mentioned with Gweedo. Even so, there was a time when countless threads were being locked, where no reason was given, nor was the name of the mod who locked it. A thread like this would've already been long locked during that time. Still, it's hard to hold past transgressions against the mod team as a whole when we have great mods like you Doom and TeeGee and others such as macbone, Leehar, etc. I must confess that when I was a mod, I was a self-righteous prick to those mods who had gamed the system. For whatever reason, I'm more inclined to favor the everyone deserves a second chance approach because we are indeed human.
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby Shannon Apple on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:23 pm

rhp 1 wrote:if this is the case, it seems to, in some small way, support my opinion, though not scientific and obviously short term.. if TG has taken a (generally) more relaxed approached in forum policing, and we still have the same weirdos and less forum bans, then perhaps people don't jump ship as fast and new ones don't leave as quickly as you once surmised Shannon? I don't know...long term, you're probably right though...


I was speaking of forums in general terms, not necessarily about CC forums. (The game and the forums are different things @Owen ;) you can play and never visit here. Not about player retention, but poster retention.) But they're all the same hehe. Yes, they may have relaxed the rules, but they still keep a certain amount of control on how far people can go. Some of the topics here are complete crap as it is. It's only in a situation where anything goes that people stop coming around, people get super abusive and all the rest. One of the sites that I was a global mod on in the past died because the admin severely limited our powers. We weren't allowed to ban trolls because "activity", while in fact, their presence was killing activity. What I described in the last post actually happened. Long story, but I won't bore anyone with that. You do learn from bad situations though. Basically, you can't let people just say whatever they like to/about someone else.

People have often cried about freedom of speech (when infracted for flaming people) and it's simple really... there is no freedom of speech on a private forum. The rules are usually in place to ensure people enjoy being part of it and that the site survives a long time. =)
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby rhp 1 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:09 pm

universalchiro wrote:Come for the games, stay for the forums. Enjoy the discussions with players around the world in Off Topic forum. Ooops, scratch that, the forum is controlled by a band of derailers. Just come for the games (hope that's enough to increase member count).



it's funny... most first real post in the forums was years after I joined.. hell.. I didn't even know how to navigate in here or that it even existed.. I am old... and honestly, if they disappeared altogether I wouldn't miss them... I normally just come in here to talk shit and watch the kiddies get riled up over nothing...
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby owenshooter on Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:56 pm

rhp 1 wrote:
universalchiro wrote:Come for the games, stay for the forums. Enjoy the discussions with players around the world in Off Topic forum. Ooops, scratch that, the forum is controlled by a band of derailers. Just come for the games (hope that's enough to increase member count).



it's funny... most first real post in the forums was years after I joined.. hell.. I didn't even know how to navigate in here or that it even existed.. I am old... and honestly, if they disappeared altogether I wouldn't miss them... I normally just come in here to talk shit and watch the kiddies get riled up over nothing...

we all have to do something while the dye settles into our beards!!! the black jesus has spoken...-el Jesus negro
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby Shannon Apple on Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:59 pm

owenshooter wrote:
rhp 1 wrote:
universalchiro wrote:Come for the games, stay for the forums. Enjoy the discussions with players around the world in Off Topic forum. Ooops, scratch that, the forum is controlled by a band of derailers. Just come for the games (hope that's enough to increase member count).



it's funny... most first real post in the forums was years after I joined.. hell.. I didn't even know how to navigate in here or that it even existed.. I am old... and honestly, if they disappeared altogether I wouldn't miss them... I normally just come in here to talk shit and watch the kiddies get riled up over nothing...

we all have to do something while the dye settles into our beards!!! the black jesus has spoken...-el Jesus negro

Okay, that seriously made me laugh. :lol:
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:09 am

universalchiro wrote:Come for the games, stay for the forums. Enjoy the discussions with players around the world in Off Topic forum. Ooops, scratch that, the forum is controlled by a band of derailers. Just come for the games (hope that's enough to increase member count).


While I can appreciate that someone has a point of view, that point of view should be based in fact. The point of view should not be based in fantasy or the influence of one or two posters who have a vested interest. You don't participate in Off Topics and your non-participation is not a recent development. I've been in OT for the entirety of my CC "career" and you have never participated. So you should either learn about what goes on in Off Topics or you should stop peddling this nonsense that is based on ignorance, at best. Just go ahead and click on the Off Topics forum and you can peruse the following serious topics:

"Why democracy is failing America"
"Uber-mergers"
"Congratulations people of Crimea"
"ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it"" - This is your boy's thread, it's 417 pages, and he keeps changing the topic name (not nefaroiusly)... I just wanted to let you know in case you miss it.
"Enforce the Law Act"
"GOP Presidential Nomines"
"Snowden Interview"
"Is the secret to happiness low expectations?"
"Break-Up California"
"Open Letter to the Media"

I'm tired of typing, so I'll end the list with... etc.

I don't know what your agenda is (other than that your buddies with Phatscotty), but I will continue to denigrate your point of view until you actually attempt to participate. I respect Phatscotty's point of view far more than your's, even though it's the same, because he at least participates in the OT Forum. You do not and should be roundly criticized for your ignorant comments.
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby rhp 1 on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:33 am

owenshooter wrote:
rhp 1 wrote:
universalchiro wrote:Come for the games, stay for the forums. Enjoy the discussions with players around the world in Off Topic forum. Ooops, scratch that, the forum is controlled by a band of derailers. Just come for the games (hope that's enough to increase member count).



it's funny... most first real post in the forums was years after I joined.. hell.. I didn't even know how to navigate in here or that it even existed.. I am old... and honestly, if they disappeared altogether I wouldn't miss them... I normally just come in here to talk shit and watch the kiddies get riled up over nothing...

we all have to do something while the dye settles into our beards!!! the black jesus has spoken...-el Jesus negro


I said I was old... not that I wanted to look old bro! Lol
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Re: Moderator Accountability: A theoretical Question

Postby owenshooter on Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:50 am

rhp 1 wrote:
owenshooter wrote:we all have to do something while the dye settles into our beards!!! the black jesus has spoken...-el Jesus negro

I said I was old... not that I wanted to look old bro! Lol
'
FEAR THE BEARD!!! the black jesus has spoken...-el Jesus negro

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