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Going with that thought, do you have a purpose that drives your life? What would those around you that know you well say your driving purpose is, and what would you WANT your driving purpose to be? What would you want to be able to say your life meant if such time came that your life was over (regardless of the implications of eternity).got tonkaed wrote:why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.
That leans more towards the aspect of free will, and that's not the same as your purpose in life. Maybe I'm not explaining it very well, but if you accept certain basic concepts such as the existence of a soul, the existence of a God that made the soul, and that nature is the sum of God's creation, then that leads to questions of 'why?'. Why did God go to the trouble of creating souls to populate a world that he also created?Gregrios wrote:Are you saying that the book challenges the idea that people make their own choices? I've got to ask because CHOICE is the ultimate test given by God himself. Something that I've always said is that a person can do ANYTHING they want to do. The question of consciences is another topic all together.
My first reaction to your question GT is that you don't; anyone who follows any code of ethics or purpose is doing so by choice. How would you define an internal purpose, if it is to be an alternative to an external purpose? If it is to be one you create and interact with the social totality around you; Isn't that to some extent external. As your more's and decision making on this are a result of many experiences that were external.got tonkaed wrote:the one overriding question i would probalby have going into this is, why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.
Ok. It seems that we're on the same page here. I just needed clearifacation on that paticular concept. I wasn't mixing up free will and purpose. I just wanted to know what the author's thoughts were on choice\free will. I understand what your saying and I agree that there is purpose for everything God's done. His ultimate goal is to unit Heaven and Earth. When Adam and Eve screwed up by way of free will, God has been on a mission to set everything up for the day that's coming. The day when God reunits with man. Everything from Kings of the past right to the descendents of the future. Technology, modern ideals, and new found lands are all of the purpose of God's final work.brianm wrote:That leans more towards the aspect of free will, and that's not the same as your purpose in life. Maybe I'm not explaining it very well, but if you accept certain basic concepts such as the existence of a soul, the existence of a God that made the soul, and that nature is the sum of God's creation, then that leads to questions of 'why?'. Why did God go to the trouble of creating souls to populate a world that he also created?Gregrios wrote:Are you saying that the book challenges the idea that people make their own choices? I've got to ask because CHOICE is the ultimate test given by God himself. Something that I've always said is that a person can do ANYTHING they want to do. The question of consciences is another topic all together.
So it's not a question of do you have control over what you do with the life that you have, even the Bible states that all of mankind has perfect free will to do as he/she pleases. The question that is asked by philosophers and holy men over the centuries is 'why are we here, what is the meaning of being alive?'
I am reminded of the story of Russian Novelist Andrei Bitov. He grew up in a communist country that actively tried to wipe all religion out. Atheism is the official 'state' religion of most Communist countries, as they want the 'State' to be the religion of the masses. When he was 27 he was riding the metro in Lenningrad (St. Petersburg) and became overcome with a great depair. He had come to the realization that existing in just the material world, in the 'here and now', in the idea that above him was no heaven, and that life under such parameters had neither future nor purpose. As he sat brooding over this thought, a phrase appeared to him (novelists are funny that way). "Without God, Life makes no sense". In his words "Repeating it in astonishment, I rode the phrase up like a moving staircase, got out of the metro, and walked into God's light."
That's a pretty powerful transformation, however, it isn't meaningful at all unless you accept that there are aspects to this experience we call 'life' that are not explained by what you see with your eyes, hear with your ears, can touch and feel with your skin, smell with your nose, or taste with your mouth. If you think that all aspects of life are covered by the biology, then that is your 'peace', but there are many people that simply can't be satisfied that the biology represents all that there is.
Although I disagree with your concept of the Bible, you do bring up a good point about wedding vows. They have become nothing more than words of tradition. It doesn't seem like people take them too seriously anymore.suggs wrote:You chaps know that the Bible is the biggest work of fiction since fidelity vows were put in the marriage ceremony?
Yes, curses! I was ripping off Blackadder anyway.InkL0sed wrote:The Bible came after that?suggs wrote:You chaps know that the Bible is the biggest work of fiction since fidelity vows were put in the marriage ceremony?![]()
Shouldn't it be more like "Fidelity vows in the marriage ceremony are the biggest work of fiction since the Bible?"
to answer you both...i dont think you can really have a sense of purpose that does not relate to the external influences, but i do think there is a great deal of a difference between being able to determine and fashion your own purpose on an internal level, than being stuck trying to determine a purpose from a being that you can never truly interact with or know, and thus can only to a point guess at the intents behind said purpose.CrazyAnglican wrote:I've heard quite a bit about this book. I'll take you up on it Brian. Chapter one today & chapter two tomorrow. I'm not the most reliable about this sort of thing so you may have to pm me to remind me during the week.
My first reaction to your question GT is that you don't; anyone who follows any code of ethics or purpose is doing so by choice. How would you define an internal purpose, if it is to be an alternative to an external purpose? If it is to be one you create and interact with the social totality around you; Isn't that to some extent external. As your more's and decision making on this are a result of many experiences that were external.got tonkaed wrote:the one overriding question i would probalby have going into this is, why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.
Only guessing? I've got disagree with you there. What about signs that are recognized by certain individuals inorder to complete a certain purpose? These signs being of God's will. I believe true individual purpose comes from understanding the signs presented to you. Or just plain understanding of what the Bible teachs.got tonkaed wrote:to answer you both...i dont think you can really have a sense of purpose that does not relate to the external influences, but i do think there is a great deal of a difference between being able to determine and fashion your own purpose on an internal level, than being stuck trying to determine a purpose from a being that you can never truly interact with or know, and thus can only to a point guess at the intents behind said purpose.CrazyAnglican wrote:I've heard quite a bit about this book. I'll take you up on it Brian. Chapter one today & chapter two tomorrow. I'm not the most reliable about this sort of thing so you may have to pm me to remind me during the week.
My first reaction to your question GT is that you don't; anyone who follows any code of ethics or purpose is doing so by choice. How would you define an internal purpose, if it is to be an alternative to an external purpose? If it is to be one you create and interact with the social totality around you; Isn't that to some extent external. As your more's and decision making on this are a result of many experiences that were external.got tonkaed wrote:the one overriding question i would probalby have going into this is, why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.
I think you're confusing "quantum physics (mechanics)" with "quantum theory." You're referring to the latter, which currently has no evidence whatsoever to back it up. The idea that subatomic particles just pop in and out of reality has no evidence, and it's unscientific to conclude that they do just because we don't understand their path. Sorta like the atheist whine that theists automatically jump to God when they can't explain something... now atheists are jumping to some totally unproven quantum theory.suggs wrote:Love the way people think there is a purpose.
Quantum physics, anyone?
Well put. I've had signs into things that I was looking into and I have no need of proving it to anyone. I know it's true and that's all that matters to me.got tonkaed wrote:well i suppose i think in a way we find the things we are looking for if we are truly looking. One poster on here has famously said that he thinks faith is as much as about the will to believe as anything. Theres nothing wrong with that and its likely quite true, but if you are looking for signs that something is out there, you are going to find them, irrospective of any truth value to them.
For instance, when my father was ill, he truly wanted to believe there was a plan or purpose behind that phase of his life. As things presented themselves, they uplifted him, even though in many cases they did not ultimatly affect his life in anyway. Am i to say those things arent true that he found? Of course not, but they certainly can be questioned. However, when you hinge a lot of personal validation on the truth value of these things, it becomes much less important to question them as it does to believe them.
Likewise, messages of truth in the bible are only seen as such because you are looking for them. In the history of humanity many great books have been written, many of them including a social message. It is the personal context that an individual brings to their reading of the text that adds an element of the divine to it, as much as any intrinsic value it may have*
*note this is only because we cannot prove it is divine*
People with a divine purpose in the coming days will have it very hard indeed. The Bible warns us of this. Actually all believers in God are warned of the hard times to come. The refund we get will be a good one though.unriggable wrote:I really think having a life with a purpose would be a horrible life to live.
Well, as long as you're happy, I won't interrupt...Gregrios wrote:People with a divine purpose in the coming days will have it very hard indeed. The Bible warns us of this. Actually all believers in God are warned of the hard times to come. The refund we get will be a good one though.unriggable wrote:I really think having a life with a purpose would be a horrible life to live.
