account sitting issues..new rule? <updated - see 1st post>

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I am all over you like flies on shit. Just waiting for your next slip up.

[lord voldemort]

I am all over you like flies on shit. Just waiting for your next slip up.

you keep thinking that. dont you have your professional job of playing cc and being a toss on the forums to get to

[poo-maker]

I am all over you like flies on shit. Just waiting for your next slip up.

lmao

[owenshooter]

how did this lose it's Sticky Status after only ONE DAY as a sticky? i was told this would be a sticky
for at least 20 days, and somehow it is slowly sliding down the page. next thing, it will be moved...
then, a lock. nothing is resolved. no team receives a strategical advantage from account sitting, and
it is a standard practice among many teams that play together on a regular basis. the "unwritten rule" is
just not a very valid rule when applied, as it is trying to be applied, to team play situations. this is an
honest discourse that is trying to resolve an issue and make sure the new WRITTEN RULE is fair and just.
wonder who took the sticky off... i can only guess...-0

p.s.-removing the sticky doesn't make you any less wrong wicked. this should be an open debate that includes people that play doubles and have a substantial amount of games and know what this is about.

p.p.s.-removing the sticky in the wee hours of the night doesn't mean nobody will notice. i saw it happen just like i saw you move the other thread, just like i saw you LOCK that other thread when the opposition to your argument was overwhelmingly against you. do the right thing, be a mod, and put the sticky back on.

[Vace Cooper]

It defeats the whole purpose of team games...coordination and working with others. Having one person play 2+ accounts in a team game, isn't really a team game. If this is how people want to play "team" games, then just make it so one person plays all accounts for one side.

Maybe it wouldent be like a team game if the player took all his team mates turns... I could agree with that. Usualy its just one turn, smetimes two, for us anyway.

[detlef]

BTW, has somebody responded to the rather silly comment that Greenoaks made about babysitting depriving opposing teams the competitive advantage of your team missing a turn? Please tell me that stupid reason has nothing to do with issue at hand. I'm going to assume we're all on board with that before I waste a few paragraphs explaining how cheap that is.

In regards to the main topic at hand, I've said my piece and am not going to repeat myself. Wicked, there's no reason to bring up this nonsense about "why even have team games if one guy's going to make all the moves". That's just needlessly exaggerating the point. Nobody is talking about the same person making all the moves. We're simply saying that there's no shortage of completely honorable reasons for logging in as your teammate to make a move. Sorry, I said I wouldn't repeat myself but, one of the primary reason my teammate and I do so is to simply keep the game moving. We both know what each of us are going to do on our turn. If it's as simple as grab a card and fortify, what's the big deal? The only effect it has on the game is that your opponents are that much more likely to log in and see it's their turn.

I also don't believe that it should be an option button as somebody suggested. That just allows uninformed people to dictate what I can and can't do.

At the end of the day, there's countless ways to cheat or bend the rules on this site and those hellbent on doing so will always stay a step ahead of the rules. I suppose if you guys want to enforce this rule because of some reason you feel people could take advantage of this (and to be honest, the only one I can think of is some higher ranked player basically pirating a low ranking player's account to play doubles games for the reason of lowering his average score in the game) then do what you have to do. Just understand that I'll ignore your BS warnings because I come here to enjoy myself and play a game, not get scolded by someone for cheating if I know for a fact I am not.

[Godd]

point of order
- it is not a written rule so no warning should of been given.
- like lord voldemort said it does hurt when given a warning (and for a rule that does not exist it hurts twice as much)
- account sitter helps out the other players as well so they do not have to wait till the 23rd hour for the turn to be played

also I have read posts all over this site for over a year and sorry wicked but you lost alot of points with me now with your statment of lord voldemort whining about his warning. Was uncalled for in that tone. I would of so called whined even louder had it been me given a warning for a unwriten rule. (just like when the officer pulls you over and gives you a warning ticket for some unwritten rule, Then the officer losses his job for it)

You should have it written and placed in the by-laws as a broad rule and narrow it down in time to cover the real issues it is needed for.

[wicked]

owen, it never should've been stickied in the first place, and let me stop you before you drivel on about how I think so because I seem to not agree with it. As much as you'd like to think so, it couldn't be further from the truth. Stickies are for official threads, or officially-sponsored threads, not someone complaining about a warning handed down. Did we sticky the Spamalot deletion thread?

If a new rule is officially proposed and input is sought, then a new official thread will be made and stickied if necessary. And it wasn't done in "the middle of the night", it was done when I saw it, which wasn't in the middle of the night for me. How about getting back to discussion of the actual topic instead of focusing on the extraneous unrelated issues, eh? I somehow doubt you'll allow it to slip off the first page anyway.

In regards to "locking the other thread," I assume you mean the Q&A thread. That was done for two reasons. One, the official answer was already given to question posed, debate over said answer isn't suitable for the Q&A forum. Two, this thread was already started about the ruling handed down, so discussion about that should be in this thread. Very simple to understand I would hope, and in no way meant to shut down any conversation.

[Dancing Mustard]

I am all over you like flies on shit.

Funny... you remind me more of a mosquito.

[owenshooter]

owen, it never should've been stickied in the first place, and let me stop you before you drivel on about how I think so because I seem to not agree with it.

that's as far as i read until you learn to respect members of the community that pay to play here. i don't need to be insulted because i disagree with you. you are being far too combative. change your tone, and maybe i'll read whatever it is you have to say. try to be mature, the rest of us are.

we were told, by a mod, that this would be an open debate for 20 days, with a rule by finalized with help from the community. i don't care why you un-stickied it, it should have remained a sticky as promised, and i hope another mod with more credibility that hasn't called people in this thread names, comes in and gives us what we were told would happen. wacicha was making an honest effort to hear what we have to say, and you are trying to silence us and bully us into accepting what you think is right. that behaviour is unacceptable and just another example of why people take great issue with how you handle yourself as a mod... grow up, and put the sticky back on, and listen to what people have to say. interestingly enough, when someone like blitz, with over 4,000 team games, weighed in, you didn't respond to any of the valid points he made. the same points we have made. this is a big issue for more than a few players. i am terribly sorry if you can't see that, but it is.-0

[Robinette]

i'm gonna need more popcorn....




more drama here than daytime soaps

[wacicha]

please pass the oh wait I am part of it lol.

This is a big issue at this time and I would like both sides to please look at (lol) both sides. We will come up with a solution hopefully a happy medium. But not if we just bicker about any dumb moves on my part or the parts of others. If we can reaally work on this rationally we may come up with someting for both sides. I have permission to change the first page a little from Lord V so I will put all logical thoughts for this unwritten rule there if you wrote something constructive and do not see it PM me with it.

[James Vazquez]

yo i need some serious answers so owen nothing to smart arse like unless its really funny
if i log in at say 8 am and i have approx 25 or so games to take turns in right
all of them would expire at about 7 pm
but here is the deal right this day i will be out from 830 am until well past midnight where i get home i will be absolutely screwed and the last thing i wanna do is go on cc. if me finding a baby sitter or 2 cause of games involved in etc to take my turns but they take them during the day not before the get close to expiring is this in violation of baby sitting rules not that there are any official rules...
[bigimg]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/voldy_cc/rules.jpg[/bigimg]

but anyway what is your opinion on this?

You yourself admitted you Didnt Want to Log on and take your turns!!! Thats is clearly not being unable too. That was and is not the current criteria for babysitting. You cant handle the game load stop making more games than you can handle. The warning you got was in fact justified as you clearly chose to have someone take your turn. Not out of a need but conveince
More than likely not the first time this has happened.

Like most rules people will always find the loophole to exploit. This does not justify there actions. You and others in this thread have asked for a clarification and you may well get one.

However I dont think anyone in this site would like the wolves to guard the chickens.

[SirSebstar]

1 rule covers a multitude of game styles
Thats what I choose.
Why:
well I for one can see the differences between the various gametypes, but I strongly feel you yourself should be the one behind the buttons, not your teammate/ babysitter ect unless you are not able to your turn at all. (and you should not have started that game at all)

Well if smarter heads then mine will make a different rule, fine by me too. I don't have a problem with non teammates taking a turn in your teamgame, I dont even really mind if he covers for you part of the day, when you might be gone. But really, dont be surprised if you use the freestyle tricks around the clock, or get used against you because someone(some team) can be online 24/7 and someone cries foul.
But untill then, good luck

[gdeangel]

Too much risk that teams will abuse babysitting. If I understand what's being proposed, it's a rule saying that you can't have your teammate babysit your account... so I voted for the "2 distinct rules" option. On the other hand, I think you really can take the position whether in team or free-for-all, nobody else in your games should be taking turns for you in that game. If that was the proposal on the table, I'd have voted for a single rule... and I think it's pretty much implicit that you should never be having an "opponent" in a game take your move for you. I always interpreted the rule to say that it should be, in all cases, someone who is not in the game, whether friendly or foe...

[yeti_c]

The options in the poll are too limited though...

The way I see Babysitting...

There are these distinct possibilities.

a) Teams, Freestyle without Babysitter.<- Fine
b) Teams, Freestyle with Babysitter.<- Against rules
c) Teams, Sequential without Babysitter. <- Fine
d) Teams, Sequential with Babysitter.<- Fine
e) Teams with Babysitter on opposing teams.<- Against rules

So this means we need a rule for the following...

a) Babysitting for people you are playing against. (This already exists)
b) Babysitting Freestyle Team games. (How do we define this without stopping the actual fair use of freestyle babysitters?)

Perhaps the rule should be - If a babysitter is taking a freestyle Team players turn - then that turn cannot intersect with the actual players turn.

C.

[wacicha]

Yes they are broad now(I am not very creative) but as we go forward I think they will narrow themselves as you have just done

[clapper011]

ok, so let me get this straight...... If I have to go to toronto for the day,night, and am back the next day (possibly less then 24 hours), this means I can not have a babysitter for any of my games???????????

[4 U 2 NV]

ok, so let me get this straight...... If I have to go to toronto for the day,night, and am back the next day (possibly less then 24 hours), this means I can not have a babysitter for any of my games???????????

you're going to toronto? call me!

[lancehoch]

I know I have only played one team game, and only 50 or so games total, but I have read all the arguments in this thread and I would like to voice my opinion.
The general consensus seems to be that singles games and team/sequential games are fine the way they are currently. The big issues is concerning team/freestyle games. I personally feel that the rule should be:

If you will not be around for the entire length of your turn, you can have someone babysit your account. The people that are not allowed to babysit your account include: opponents in the game and teammates in a freestyle/team game.

[James Vazquez]

well clap having as many open games as you have youd proly have 2 hours worth of turns when ya got back

Yea this is one of the reasons why, I suspect, it was left vauge. No one rule can cover all applications thats why we have people in place to interpret not just software.

Real life can interfere with our turns here. The issue is with those that have taken this concession and used it to gain an advantage in a game or use it as a strategy. Or with the case that started this thread simply too lazy to take their own turns.

[jiminski]

ok, so let me get this straight...... If I have to go to toronto for the day,night, and am back the next day (possibly less then 24 hours), this means I can not have a babysitter for any of my games???????????

surely this is a rule of thumb, which gives some form of definitive guideline and is not in practice an 'absolute' (wink wink, "you know it, we know it but we have to give some guidance to enforce the blocking of Freestyle abusers" kind of thing)

the 24 hour watershed for babysitting is in reality a completely impossible and impractical rule to enforce and will, i am sure, only be enforced in the event of blatant cheating.

If everyone chills and we say no more about it perhaps it will all be ok

As with everything it comes down to a common sense rules which i feel our mods 'generally' but not in this case! use and do not abuse! (Cookie please!)

[tzor]

We often give warnings and further punishments for "unwritten rules" that we consider abuse of the site, for example intentional deadbeating. Strategic account-sitting falls under this category.

Wicked, that is one of the most dangerous things I have read from you and really violates one of the most cherished principles of Internet Moderation. Whenever there is a set of rules you have to go by those rules. You need to write the set of rules to be able to handle the unforseen but once the unforseen becomes seen it still has to be clearly written. To employ an unknown set of "unwritten rules" is only asking to be hit with the charge of favoritism, whether it is deserved or not. When you add this to the fact that for some people this is a paid service, then things get really complicated.

[jbrettlip]

I guess I better chime in since I have just found out what a blatent cheater I am. Joey Grecco knocked on my door to inform me that giving Owen my password was equivalent to selling secrets to N. Korea.

Owen holds a power of attorney for me. He is authorized to handle financial transactions and sign my name under the laws of the United States. If CC rules supercedes the US Constitution, please let me know so I can have my attorney alerted.

However I have since asked him to not take a turn for me, since the dice aren't random and Wicked has obviously put the "double 6 defender dice" virus into all of Owen's turns.

Seriously, in sequential, there is no advantage whatsoever. It speeds the game along, and makes it more enjoyable for all. I log into the site a lot from my blackberry, but I can't take a turn on it. So I call Owen, adn tell him if I need a turn taken. Since we have comparable win %'s I can't see how that is strategic. It isn't like I am calling up Gen Patton or anything...its just Owen!

In freestyle, I don't play it. Therefore I will not comment on something I am so unfamiliar with. (See how that works?)

Finally, this is really Owen posting under my sign on....we also vote for each other in elections and sleep with each other's girls. But we will refrain from rolling imaginary dice on an online game for each other. Although that will cause me to refrain from purchasing premium again. I knwo one membership ($25) is not significant, but I think it could be a groundswell revolt. Hell we overthrew a country over TEA, don't think something like that couldn't happen here. Just remember: the customer, not the MOD, is always right.

You are all now smarter for having read this. Your welcome.

[Twill]

This is why I shouldn't have my own life and take weekends off

The "official" rule on the topic of team mates is FAQ 15.

Can I let another player take a turn for me when I am away from the game?

You can, with the stipulation that the account babysitter is not your opponent in any current game and does not start or join new games (except for ongoing tournaments). It is common courtesy to announce in game chat that another player will take your turn(s) during your absence.

Yes, there is nothing that says anything about 24 hours and so saying that "The official rules say 24 hours" is slightly mistaken. 24 hours is a policy that we have been promoting but have never fully enacted because it was not considered necessary at the time and we like users to not feel overly restricted with lots of rules. (nobody likes rules and nobody reads anything, so what was the point anyway )

That being said, in this case there were some concerns that the people involved were crossing a different line. Specifically:

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts.

As a complaint was made, it was brought to the attention of the hunters and admins and a decision was made, based on the information available to us, that in this specific case the users involved should be warned that their actions were crossing a line into "abuse of the game" by 'strategically having other players take their turns with the specific intent of gaining an advantage over the other team' and not because they needed the account sat for them.

Now, because wicked is the most active mod on the site, she had the unfortunate job of bringing this decision to the users involved for which she has been unfairly blamed. If you have an issue with the warning itself, bring that up with me because it falls on my shoulders not hers. She was just the messenger.

As to changing the rule, that is another issue entirely.

Lots of different people play lots of different games in lots of different ways. This is a casual game site and as such should not be considered ConquerCrack, compelling you to play for fear of something horrible happening to you. it should be fun and you should be able to play if and when you want. So yes, perhaps we need to rethink the 24 hour time frame.
At the same time however, most people enter into team games with the expectation that they will be playing 2 different players. 1 player who happens to have an adviser against two people playing in concert is not a team game, it is a handicap game.

Owen, repeating that 80 games is not enough to have an opinion is, for lack of a better word, bullpoopoo. If I want to play only 1 team game in my entire CC career, I want to know that I will be protected and enabled by the rules as much as the "big fish". I have personally only played 9 team games (I don't play particularly well with others) but I'd like to think that my opinion counts specifically because I only play a few team games and want them to be fun for me.

Yes, this issue has not been handled as well as I would have hoped it might have. Thank you to wacicha for trying very hard to bring the community into the center of this discussion and wicked for trying to keep some form or order and direction.
I will be keeping a close eye on this thread and hope we can work together to create a ruling that everyone can not only accept, but be happy with.

I am re-sticking this thread because it was promised to be stuck for 20 days so that the community can have input. We are actively discussing this in "the back channels" and, while nothing has yet been decided, will hopefully produce something acceptable soon. If we don't listen only to the very vocal team players, you will hopefully understand: there are other players who are affected by the rules, not just those who are the most prolific.

Have a good one,
Twill