muy_thaiguy wrote:radiojake wrote:Also, to Coffee Cream and crew - the only thing that annoys me about the fact there is no afterlife/heaven/hell is that we won't get to see the look on your stupid faces when you find out there is no eternal paradise, because you'll be dead and nothing more than a body in the ground/cremated (whatever your preference may be) - The whole notion of living on the planet and considering it a 'secondary' notion, and that you spend your life on Earth trying to prepare yourself to enter heaven as primary is half the reason this planet is gone to shit. Earth is Primary, and should be treated that way. Unfortunately, by many people, it is not considered so.
First off, what really annoys me is when people go on about how there is no after life when they can't even prove there isn't one. Which brings me to ask, can you even prove that souls don't exist?
Next off, the reason why the planet has "gone to shit" as you said, is because people (not solely Christians or other believers, but in general, though you seem to think that it is almost solely our fault) in general don't want to take personal responsibility for their actions want others to do it for them, in which case, you seem to fit this quite well.
Definitely not solely Chistians. In fact, I am amazed at the number of Christians who are unaware of the many asthetic traditions. In the middle ages, there were monks who put themselves on pedastels so their feet would not trod the microbes.
Now, in reality that extremism is fairly arrogant (exactly how do you get yourself food, etc.) and just plain dumb (not too healthy, among other things). The other side ... that claims that man has the right to basically do as they wish to the earth because the earth is here for us, is also arrogant. MY point is that Christianity, like most faiths is as diverse as the people who believe AND tends to get used as convenient by the earthly/political powers.
This is one prime reason my branch of Christianity teaches us to question what we are tought and to constantly compare it to the Bible and prayer. In what some didactical types see as irony or even hypocracy, we also recognize that our very differences mean that God gives each of us different tasks and even somewhat different understandings. BUT, we all fall into the same framework.
To take a minor example, when I grew up in the west, most people wore shoes in their houses. Now, in the east, I find that most people, including myself (now) do not. One big reason .. snow! Does that mean folks out west are dirty, folks in the east "clean" or the reverse? Some will argue each side. BUT, even the most "hard core" will probably allow their kids to play at a house where the rules on this point differ. Chances are they will go for coffee, if invited ... and act as their host requires.
I don't want to put religious issues on the level of shoes, of course, but ... well, some things really ARE on that level. Many things in the old testament, in particular made absolute sense in the day, but not now.
In a more extreme example, Lepers had to be isolated in their own communities. This seems quite cruel today. Back then, quarantine was the only way folks new to protect themselves. Ironically, if folks keep misusing antibiotics, we may return to those days. Not for lepresy .. we know better how it is transmitted now, but for many other diseases.
Now, what does this have to do with homosexuality? Homosexuality IS listed as a sin in the old testament ... right along with other things like eating pig, and wearing tassles on clothing, that folks just don't consider relevant or important today. It is mentioned briefly, very briefly, in the new testament. On the other hand, lying, taking the Lord's name... and many other issues are listed over and over again as sins.
ALSO mentioned over and over and over again is the concept that we are ALL sinners and ALL subject to falling from grace but for the love of Jesus Christ. You can profess your sins and be forgiven, but if you want to be purely strict about it, the REAL truth is that being without sin is just impossible for human beings. We do the best we can .... and fall short. So, you can either berate yourself and go to extremes ... maybe become a monk/one of the isolationists nuns ... or you can accept that Christ and God love us all, want what is best for us, try to follow his rules and go on.
Homosexuality is being rexamined by many, many churches. Within the church, that is, specifically, whether a homosexual person can be a priest/clergy or can even be a full communioned member is debated. My church happens to accept full communion from homosexuals. There are some ordained pastors, but they cannot be practising thier homosexuality. This is highly debated. There is strong feeling on each side. Some of the debate comes from experience. The fact that almsot every church has at least one or two homosexual members. It is one thing to talk about a homosexual as this harmful and hurtful "thing" when you don't think you know anyone like that ... and something else when you realise that the person who has sat beside you and spoken up in Bible studies is one of "them". In my case, it was only after I had mentioned my anger at the way some people treated homosexuals in the name of Christ that my mother told me the choir director of my childhood church had been gay. Now, that did not mean that homosexuality, in general was accepted. BUT, that is the thing. More often than not, you hear grandious and very repressive discussion of homosexuality in the "remote" as a "hypothetical", yet, in reality, find that people actually do "overlook" or "cooexist" with homosexuality quite fine.
THEN, however, you get those few who take it much further. Hatred exists everywhere. We cannot get rid of it. That is reality. However, there is something beyond irony when someone who professes the love of Christ and stands up using Christ's name tries to say that they are supposed to act in a loving and forgiving manner, but that when it comes to homosexuality ... that means they can be there, but not really be a Christian unless they deny this huge part of who they are.
Things DO change, even within Christianity. They do not change lightly. They should not change simply because society says so. In that, Coffeecream, etc are correct. HOWEVER, in this case it is not a matter of the church bowing to society. It is a matter of the church reviewing the results of their teachings, their actions AND reviewing the tests themselves to see if there are some subtleties that have been missed.
This analysis is similar to that we went through not so long ago regarding slavery. Then, too... aye, even now, you will find many who proclaim that slavery is fully "OK", that the BIBLE declares that the races must be separate, etc. MOST people now, however fully disagree.
Bradleybradley is correct when he said that being against homosexuality is not the same as being racist. Racism HAS fully been proven wrong, to be against God. Homosexuality is still under debate, within the Christian church.
HOWEVER, about one thing there should be no debate. Whatever we do or do not think withing the walls of our churches or amongst the communing body, these rules do NOT apply to the outside world unless there is direct and unquestionable harm. In THAT regard, both Coffeecream AND bradleybradley (though he does not take a Christian perspective, he does agree in this point with Coffee) are just plain wrong. AND THAT IS PROVEN!
