Why do people believe in God ?

[comic boy]

The 10 commandments have largely endured because yes they make sense and not because they are the word of God, presenting them as such of course also made sense.

[Simon Viavant]

Actually i've examined most of the major ones, and found them all to be rather full of themselves. To call religion "irrational" is narrowminded to say the least. By doing so you are relegating some of the great thinkers of history to a status beneath yourself - forgive me for stating the obvious, but you don't seem that smart.


Honibaz

This coming from the guy who claims republicans and democrats are all the same and it's just a ruling class in duisguise as part of a big conspiracy.

??? A ruling class in "duisguise"? Let me clear it up for you genius - Democrat/Republican = 2 sides of the same fooking coin. No Machiavellian conspiracies there - just the same old shite in 2 different wrappings, served up to gullible masses who want to believe that their vote actually means something. A ruling class in disguise? Whatthefuck are they disguised as? Construction workers? Nuns? Munchkins?


Honibaz

Yet you fail to realize that all religions are just the same old shite served up to the gullible masses who want to believe their life actually means something.

And the democrats have mostly wanted to change things for eight years. Now just because the Republicans jump on it and say they want to change things too come election season doesn't mean they all do that.

[Frigidus]

Actually i've examined most of the major ones, and found them all to be rather full of themselves. To call religion "irrational" is narrowminded to say the least. By doing so you are relegating some of the great thinkers of history to a status beneath yourself - forgive me for stating the obvious, but you don't seem that smart.


Honibaz

This coming from the guy who claims republicans and democrats are all the same and it's just a ruling class in duisguise as part of a big conspiracy.

??? A ruling class in "duisguise"? Let me clear it up for you genius - Democrat/Republican = 2 sides of the same fooking coin. No Machiavellian conspiracies there - just the same old shite in 2 different wrappings, served up to gullible masses who want to believe that their vote actually means something. A ruling class in disguise? Whatthefuck are they disguised as? Construction workers? Nuns? Munchkins?


Honibaz

Yet you fail to realize that all religions are just the same old shite served up to the gullible masses who want to believe their life actually means something.

And the democrats have mostly wanted to change things for eight years. Now just because the Republicans jump on it and say they want to change things too come election season doesn't mean they all do that.

Everything will turn up peaches with Democrats controlling the houses and presidency? I'm not exactly holding my breath.

[mpjh]

the question is why certain people feel the need to believe in a God.

Because most human beings can't deal with the fact that we are mortal and life ends when we die. They need the security of a higher power and/or after death destination to make it through their daily lives. It is very comforting to them to have these things to rely on when times are tough or bad things happen. These superstitions also ease the passing of loved ones young & old as they can sleep well believing that they have moved onto something else, instead of just ceasing to exist.

Can you name one person who chose to believe in a higher power for the reasons you have stated?

Yes, my mother, my sister, my grandmother, my mother-in-law, my brother, the list is long but these are a few

[Dancing Mustard]

the question is why certain people feel the need to believe in a God.

Because most human beings can't deal with the fact that we are mortal and life ends when we die. They need the security of a higher power and/or after death destination to make it through their daily lives. It is very comforting to them to have these things to rely on when times are tough or bad things happen. These superstitions also ease the passing of loved ones young & old as they can sleep well believing that they have moved onto something else, instead of just ceasing to exist.

Can you name one person who chose to believe in a higher power for the reasons you have stated?

Jay_a2j, Gregrios, all the other Xians.

I win.

[hulmey]

The 10 commandments have largely endured because yes they make sense and not because they are the word of God, presenting them as such of course also made sense.

yep someone just woke up one day and said hey lets make the 10 commanments, becuase its a good idea! Can you really and truly disclaim all that is written in the bible. I've seen a miracle and you've probably never even heard about it.

I live in a 99% Roman Catholic country called Malta. The people are fascinating and by far have the oldest and richest history in the world dating back to 5200 BC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Malta . Anyways around 8 years ago i started hearing rumours and it was in the papar that the statue of our lady was weeping blood from her eyes. This was witnessed by a the morning pray group (one of which is my friend). We were told the statue has been removed from public viewing and was under going tests. 8 years later and we have heard nothing! The Church takes along to time to study such things and will not jump the gun in claiming a miracle of such...Only 1 known case of the weeping statue of our lady has been proven. All the others (they say) are hoax's.

[Juan_Bottom]

Anyways around 8 years ago i started hearing rumours and it was in the papar that the statue of our lady was weeping blood from her eyes. This was witnessed by a the morning pray group (one of which is my friend). We were told the statue has been removed from public viewing and was under going tests. 8 years later and we have heard nothing!

Ask yourself a serious question, if God cannot interfere with our "freewill" by appearing, then why does she make a statue cry blood?
In fact, with all the infinate powers at her disposal, why bother to make a statue cry? What's the point? Let me know when people start floating around and stuff, but don't bother with some gimmick equal to crop circles.

I live in a 99% Roman Catholic country called Malta.

If I were going to take advantage of a large group of peoples faith, I think I'd pick a place where they are gullible enough to believe me.

EDIT:
We can DISCLAIM, or DISCREDIT pretty much everything that your religion flows from. Not so much the history, but all the other stuff for certian. And I would challange you to show me that you can do the same with other religion's dogmas/texts. You must have already, or you couldn't know that the Christian God is the true God for certian.

[hulmey]

Anyways around 8 years ago i started hearing rumours and it was in the papar that the statue of our lady was weeping blood from her eyes. This was witnessed by a the morning pray group (one of which is my friend). We were told the statue has been removed from public viewing and was under going tests. 8 years later and we have heard nothing!

Ask yourself a serious question, if God cannot interfere with our "freewill" by appearing, then why does she make a statue cry blood?
In fact, with all the infinate powers at her disposal, why bother to make a statue cry? What's the point? Let me know when people start floating around and stuff, but don't bother with some gimmick equal to crop circles.

I live in a 99% Roman Catholic country called Malta.

If I were going to take advantage of a large group of peoples faith, I think I'd pick a place where they are gullible enough to believe me.

EDIT:
We can DISCLAIM, or DISCREDIT pretty much everything that your religion flows from. Not so much the history, but all the other stuff for certian. And I would challange you to show me that you can do the same with other religion's dogmas/texts. You must have already, or you couldn't know that the Christian God is the true God for certian.

God didnt make the statue cry! god hasnt healed the 1000's of people that visit lourdes in hope of a miracle every year. Also this is not flame wars so please leave your snide and nasty remarks at home! your not doing your cause any good by being nasty! I do feel sorry for you but its quite apparent that you dont want to try and understand other people's views, so i wont bother trying to explain them to you. ignorance is bliss

[Dancing Mustard]

yep someone just woke up one day and said hey lets make the 10 commanments, becuase its a good idea!

Well exactly.

That person was probably a member of a small tribe of people who lived in mud-huts around the Gallilee, and they probably wanted to codify all of the simple laws of their primitive community. It would have made perfect sense to write down a durable (i.e. carved on stone) collection of laws (coincidentally ten) that the tribe was supposed to adhere to, and to display them in a public place.

You think that sounds unusual? Actually, that kind of behaviour was increidbly common amongst primitive peoples. Go look look up "The twelve tablets of Rome" if you don't believe me.

Is it really such a stretch to think that over time the primitives of Gallilee could have come to revere their codified table of laws? To imagine that they were something more than just law? To see them even as the words of a higher authority, or a God? Remember... we're dealing with extremely primitive and suspicious people here (and if you need a contemporary example, then just look at what Americans think of their constitution).

The whole "Who would just write out commandments?! They must be true!" argument is a complete non-starter I'm afraid.

[Dancing Mustard]

God didnt make the statue cry!

So it wasn't a miracle?

god hasnt healed the 1000's of people that visit lourdes in hope of a miracle every year.

Exactly, a whole load of time and effort wasted on faith.

Also this is not flame wars so please leave your snide and nasty remarks at home!

Please learn to take your own advice... you're the only one taking an aggressive tone here.

I do feel sorry for you but its quite apparent that you dont want to try and understand other people's views, so i wont bother trying to explain them to you.

Said the man whose last couple of posts have been nothing but sarcasm, aggression and patronising put-downs...

Come on hulmey, this is a sensitive issue for a lot of people. Try to calm down and be a bit civillised eh? Otherwise nobody is going to be able to sustain a rational dialogue with you.

[hulmey]

God didnt make the statue cry!

So it wasn't a miracle?

god hasnt healed the 1000's of people that visit lourdes in hope of a miracle every year.

Exactly, a whole load of time and effort wasted on faith.

Also this is not flame wars so please leave your snide and nasty remarks at home!

Please learn to take your own advice... you're the only one taking an aggressive tone here.

I do feel sorry for you but its quite apparent that you dont want to try and understand other people's views, so i wont bother trying to explain them to you.

Said the man whose last couple of posts have been nothing but sarcasm, aggression and patronising put-downs...

Come on hulmey, this is a sensitive issue for a lot of people. Try to calm down and be a bit civillised eh? Otherwise nobody is going to be able to sustain a rational dialogue with you.

i draw the line when someone makes snides remarks about my race. Its called racism.

[Juan_Bottom]

Who made snide remarks about your race? Because if your saying it was me...

[Dancing Mustard]

i draw the line when someone makes snides remarks about my race. Its called racism.

It's also called: "What on Earth are you talking about? Nobody has insulted your race or ethnicity here. Please calm down and stop this bizarre threadjacking outburst"


Ok ok, joke for you:

Q: How do you make a Maltese Cross?
A: Stamp on his toes and poke your fingers in his eyes.

*Rimshot*

[comic boy]

I dont disclaim everything that is written in the bible, it is in part an important historical document, I do however think that the supernatural elements are pure fiction.

[black elk speaks]

I dont disclaim everything that is written in the bible, it is in part an important historical document, I do however think that the supernatural elements are pure fiction.

Exactly, I mean like, immaculate conception for example. Everyone knows that you HAVE to have a penis to... oh, wait, hmmm, it seems that modern science has a process called artificial insemination that is a lot like that. Oh, but that resurrection thing is purely fiction because once someone is dead... hmm, actually, come to think of it, in Hatti there is a drug that can cause remarkably death like appearances. Or you could consider the possibility that cloning was involved. sure, it seems far fetched, but these are things that are possible today, therefore they were possible back then even though they were not likely. But you do have to consider the fact that we people really are like sheep and more likely than not have no idea what the real truth is.

[comic boy]

I dont disclaim everything that is written in the bible, it is in part an important historical document, I do however think that the supernatural elements are pure fiction.

Exactly, I mean like, immaculate conception for example. Everyone knows that you HAVE to have a penis to... oh, wait, hmmm, it seems that modern science has a process called artificial insemination that is a lot like that. Oh, but that resurrection thing is purely fiction because once someone is dead... hmm, actually, come to think of it, in Hatti there is a drug that can cause remarkably death like appearances. Or you could consider the possibility that cloning was involved. sure, it seems far fetched, but these are things that are possible today, therefore they were possible back then even though they were not likely. But you do have to consider the fact that we people really are like sheep and more likely than not have no idea what the real truth is.

You would have hoped that in 2000 years we might have moved on from thinking that anything we dont yet understand must be the work of God....of course a lot of us have.

[Frigidus]

I dont disclaim everything that is written in the bible, it is in part an important historical document, I do however think that the supernatural elements are pure fiction.

Exactly, I mean like, immaculate conception for example. Everyone knows that you HAVE to have a penis to... oh, wait, hmmm, it seems that modern science has a process called artificial insemination that is a lot like that. Oh, but that resurrection thing is purely fiction because once someone is dead... hmm, actually, come to think of it, in Hatti there is a drug that can cause remarkably death like appearances. Or you could consider the possibility that cloning was involved. sure, it seems far fetched, but these are things that are possible today, therefore they were possible back then even though they were not likely. But you do have to consider the fact that we people really are like sheep and more likely than not have no idea what the real truth is.

Surely you aren't suggesting that Jesus was a brilliant scientist who was so committed to fucking with people that he'd fake his own birth and death?

[PLAYER57832]

Why is it so much more "sensible" to think that the universe .. ALL of it sprung from nothing than to think that its existance is attributable to something far outside our ability to understand?

You can call that whatever you like. I happen to say "God". And will continue until you can prove me wrong.

Answer what was here BEFORE the universe .. and when and how it will end, and what will be here after. TRULY answer and show some understading. When you can do that, then you might approach the question of God scientifically.

Oh, and gravity, in the Earthly sense IS proven. Drop a ball and see what happens. we call that gravity. It is a matter if definition, not "proof". Some aspects of gravity and how it operates are in question, but not gravity itself.

[black elk speaks]

what I am suggesting is that people have a wish to explain and control things. everything. I am putting it out there that we actually know very little even though we suggest that we do. Instead of saying "I believe" we say "I know." To discredit christianity is to lend credit to something else, even agnosticism. All that I am saying is that most everything that I've read in the bible is possible.

It is known that ancient civilizations had technology that rivals our own technology in some ways. I have seen presentations that suggests that ancient Mesopotamian people actually had batteries and light bulbs. Ancient Mayans were performing brain surgery and developed several calendar systems that recorded time backwards some 4 million years. There is even a "Fabled" city called Atlantis that is said to have had incredible technology for its time. There have been recent discoveries of cities under water that we have never known of before, whole civilizations lost. the science is there to do most everything there in the bible, and at the time, anyone who knew how to do it, would be considered godly.

[Frigidus]

Why is it so much more "sensible" to think that the universe .. ALL of it sprung from nothing than to think that its existance is attributable to something far outside our ability to understand?

You can call that whatever you like. I happen to say "God". And will continue until you can prove me wrong.

Answer what was here BEFORE the universe .. and when and how it will end, and what will be here after. TRULY answer and show some understading. When you can do that, then you might approach the question of God scientifically.

Hm...well, while I could ramble off one of many various theories that I'm pretty sure I don't entirely understand without a degree in physics (or something to that extent), I'll just ask what came before God? It's a rather bad question, admittedly. It seems that living in a world dictated by cause and effect raises these sort of creator questions, but who's to say that what we came from was governed by any logic at all? Everything is just speculation.

Oh, and gravity, in the Earthly sense IS proven. Drop a ball and see what happens. we call that gravity. It is a matter if definition, not "proof". Some aspects of gravity and how it operates are in question, but not gravity itself.

Nobody is suggesting gravity doesn't exist, what is meant by the "gravity is a theory too" bit is that, like all theories, there are certain things that could happen that would disprove the theory. If, one day, things started flying up and out of the atmosphere we'd have to rethink gravity. This, of course, won't ever happen, but falsifiability is a key to any theory.

[comic boy]

Why is it so much more "sensible" to think that the universe .. ALL of it sprung from nothing than to think that its existance is attributable to something far outside our ability to understand?

You can call that whatever you like. I happen to say "God". And will continue until you can prove me wrong.

Answer what was here BEFORE the universe .. and when and how it will end, and what will be here after. TRULY answer and show some understading. When you can do that, then you might approach the question of God scientifically.

Oh, and gravity, in the Earthly sense IS proven. Drop a ball and see what happens. we call that gravity. It is a matter if definition, not "proof". Some aspects of gravity and how it operates are in question, but not gravity itself.

If you choose to believe in the Christian God then fine but the chances of you being right are tiny, the multitude of Pagan / Norse/Greek/ Roman / Persian Gods have exactly the same credentials for a start. That is supposing that you are even right about there being any kind of God in the first place, why not simply an alien who put together earth as a pleasure dome for his buddies. There could be thousands of explanations, many of which our minds cannot yet comprehend, its laughable for you to suggest that God being real is a 50% chance. Having said that it is harmless enough to have personal faith, just as it is harmless for me to have a pet rabbit, it only becomes a problem if I start to justify illogical acts on the basis that the rabbit said it was ok.

[b.k. barunt]

Something i saw on a bathroom wall once :

God is dead - Nietzsche
Neitzsche is dead - God

And no, i don't think God wrote that, His entry was up higher on the wall - MENE MENE TOKEL UPHARSIN.


Honibaz

[PLAYER57832]

what I am suggesting is that people have a wish to explain and control things. everything. I am putting it out there that we actually know very little even though we suggest that we do. Instead of saying "I believe" we say "I know." To discredit christianity is to lend credit to something else, even agnosticism. All that I am saying is that most everything that I've read in the bible is possible.

It is known that ancient civilizations had technology that rivals our own technology in some ways. I have seen presentations that suggests that ancient Mesopotamian people actually had batteries and light bulbs. Ancient Mayans were performing brain surgery and developed several calendar systems that recorded time backwards some 4 million years. There is even a "Fabled" city called Atlantis that is said to have had incredible technology for its time. There have been recent discoveries of cities under water that we have never known of before, whole civilizations lost. the science is there to do most everything there in the bible, and at the time, anyone who knew how to do it, would be considered godly.

As a scientist, I fully admit my faith is unproveable. As a scientist, I am fascinated by all sorts of approaches to answers, including particularly ancient civilizations. As a thinking human being, I fully admit that I might be wrong and that other people might be correct. As a Christian, though, I "know" (technically a very strong belief) that my faith is true. It is, really all any of us can do. As long as we acknowledge that others may take the same path and come up with different answers ... we can live & speak together.

Why is it so much more "sensible" to think that the universe .. ALL of it sprung from nothing than to think that its existance is attributable to something far outside our ability to understand?

You can call that whatever you like. I happen to say "God". And will continue until you can prove me wrong.

Answer what was here BEFORE the universe .. and when and how it will end, and what will be here after. TRULY answer and show some understading. When you can do that, then you might approach the question of God scientifically.

Hm...well, while I could ramble off one of many various theories that I'm pretty sure I don't entirely understand without a degree in physics (or something to that extent), I'll just ask what came before God? It's a rather bad question, admittedly. It seems that living in a world dictated by cause and effect raises these sort of creator questions, but who's to say that what we came from was governed by any logic at all? Everything is just speculation.

No, it is not a bad question, it gets to the fundamental answers. Christians believe that God has ALWAYS been in existance and ALWAYS will be. How can that be? As a scientist, I say we don't know. We DO know that some answers from quantum physics seem to defy all previously known "logic" about the universe. Among other possibilities is that all time might very well exist at once (which would be consistant with the Christian belief).

At any rate, the REAL truth is that each idea put forward by science (all time same time, time is circular, the universe somehow folds into itself, multiple universes, etc.) is truly as seemingly illogical and incredulous as the Christian belief.

I do not, by any stretch ask that you believe.. but I DO ask that you acknowledge that someone can be intelligent, thinking, rational AND a Christian. To deny that is to diminish your own self, not us.

Oh, and gravity, in the Earthly sense IS proven. Drop a ball and see what happens. we call that gravity. It is a matter if definition, not "proof". Some aspects of gravity and how it operates are in question, but not gravity itself.

Nobody is suggesting gravity doesn't exist, what is meant by the "gravity is a theory too" bit is that, like all theories, there are certain things that could happen that would disprove the theory. If, one day, things started flying up and out of the atmosphere we'd have to rethink gravity. This, of course, won't ever happen, but falsifiability is a key to any theory.

[/quote]

Actually quite a few people in this forum HAVE claimed gravity is unproven, but you, too, are expressing a fundamental MISunderstanding ... and that is my point. "Gravity" is not actually a theory. Gravity is a matter of definition. There IS a theory of gravitational force, etc. They describe various theories about how gravity works. Even so, some aspects are proven now that were not proveable even a few years ago. As for "rethinking gravity" if things fly up out into the atmostphere. Set aside the fact that we won't be here, that won't prove "gravity" itself false. Gravity has happened, happens now. It is our name for hwat happens when we drop something.
If that action ceases, it won't negate what has happened, it will only possibly change how we consider its limitations, creation, etc.

Understanding these differances ... the differance between a definition/fact and a theory is critical.

Why is it so much more "sensible" to think that the universe .. ALL of it sprung from nothing than to think that its existance is attributable to something far outside our ability to understand?

You can call that whatever you like. I happen to say "God". And will continue until you can prove me wrong.

Answer what was here BEFORE the universe .. and when and how it will end, and what will be here after. TRULY answer and show some understading. When you can do that, then you might approach the question of God scientifically.

Oh, and gravity, in the Earthly sense IS proven. Drop a ball and see what happens. we call that gravity. It is a matter if definition, not "proof". Some aspects of gravity and how it operates are in question, but not gravity itself.

If you choose to believe in the Christian God then fine but the chances of you being right are tiny, the multitude of Pagan / Norse/Greek/ Roman / Persian Gods have exactly the same credentials for a start. That is supposing that you are even right about there being any kind of God in the first place, why not simply an alien who put together earth as a pleasure dome for his buddies. There could be thousands of explanations, many of which our minds cannot yet comprehend, its laughable for you to suggest that God being real is a 50% chance. Having said that it is harmless enough to have personal faith, just as it is harmless for me to have a pet rabbit, it only becomes a problem if I start to justify illogical acts on the basis that the rabbit said it was ok.

Talk to me in about 20 years....

In the meantime, just recognize that you will go a lot further if you are willing to tolerate other people's thoughts and ideas, whether you agree or not.

[Haggis_McMutton]

Fear, or attempting to find answers. A fundamental principal of science is that anything which is not PROVEN false, might, possibly be true. We form theories, put them into testable hypothesis and, regardless of the result, if the science is good (true, repeatable results and all that), science advances.

And what exactly, outside of the realm of math and logic can be PROVEN false? I say gravity doesn`t exist, the weight of our sins pulls us and down towards earth. You cannot prove me wrong. Since we have no evidence to point towards this weighing down by sins, most people choose to ignore that possibility though.

Old territory, but the answer is that many things we understand and live with cannot be proven. Love is the most often cited example. Scientists are beginning to pinpoint various brain activity and chemical reactions that people associate with love, but true love is extremely complex. It comes in multiple forms (love of child, love or parent, love of partner ... etc.) and cannot, as yet be "proven".

Firstly, i off course was referring to the theory of gravity, i was just being lazy.

Secondly, what i was trying to point out is that the argument "it cannot be proven false" is completely worthless.

Granted, individual egos, errors and all sorts of issues can impede this process. BUT, the idea that science is somehow exclusive of faith is plain silly. Faith takes off where proof stops. Faith, in a small respect, is what leads one scientist to stake his reputation, funding on finding a result his colleagues distain. In a greater sense, faith leads some people to believe in a higher power, even God.

True.
Key words have however been bolded.

The scientist most likely has some empirical evidence or logical assertions that is convincing enough to him, to make him stake his reputation.
I don`t think he would support a theory because "he dreamed it was true, and that gave him a strong conviction in the theory"

Interestingly enough, I know scientists who DID claim they "dreamed it was true". The mind is a mysterious thing. I, however, have never made such a statement. I have adressed why and how I have my faith in other threads. But, the bottom line is that just as you might not be able to convince someone that your best friend is really and truly their life mate, I cannot convince you that God exists. Just as your friend might decide to completely fall in love with someone you abhor (not a complete criminal or anything like that ... just someone you don't like), I find something in my religion that you, apparently don't find in any religion.

Fair enough, I`m sure you have your reasons.
What i was trying to point out however is that in the case of most believers (perhaps with the exception of those who have had things which might be considered miracles happen to them), the level of faith necessary isn`t anywhere near to the level of faith necessary in the scientists case( oh and i would hope most scientists wouldn`t stake their reputations based only on a dream, without any other support whatsoever )

Those who call this "silly" are themselves the ones with limited minds. A truly great mind is not just one who knows, but one who is willing to conceive of the unkown.

I am willing to try and conceive the unknown, i am not however willing to accept a certain, unlikely, untestable, option because that`s what my relatives believe, or because it has nice perks.
If the option became more likely(god showing himself etc), i`d reconsider my position.

I`d say one who somehow reaches the conclusion that such an inherently unprovable thing as god is "100% true" and then bases his actions on that assumption is a bit silly.

You should not believe anything just because someone else does .. even your parents (though I would say you should respect them as long as you remain in their care).

But I was not trying to convince you of anything, merely suggesting that to completely dismiss as silly and idiotic those who have beliefs you don't share ... is wrong. Just as wrong as for me to try and tell you you HAVE to agree with my faith. I suggest that we should each respect each other's positions.

i mentioned the relatives/perks thing because the majority of believers i know haven`t reached their conclusions through "trying to conceive the unknown" and so forth, but more from learning the respective faith from relatives and never really bothering to think it through.

I am not dismissing any belief outright however, some beliefs are undoubtedly sillier than others(the guys that believe the earth is flat, what are they called again? )
We shouldn`t just "respect each others opinion", we (as a society) need to really discuss this issue, religion needs to stop being that "sacred" thing and needs to start being seriously debated(outside of internet forums and obscure documentaries i mean)

[comic boy]

Yes the Christian church has set a fine standard in tolerance, heresy is still a sin I believe !