Crazy Maps And Dice?

[Mr Changsha]

I didn't quite have OliverFA's dedication to read through all of those pages but I got the general gist of the thing.

It seems this all kicked off when I was variously in the bar, having a massage (one of the great benefits of living in China is top massages) and sleeping. I woke up to manwiththeplan (one of my doubles partners) on the phone crying "Something has happened to CC I don't know what has happened but the classic map looks absolutely terrible!" Which it really, truly does. Hungover but needing to give battle orders to spoongod who wrote on gamechat "China can't attack anymore!!!", I studied the new classic map for a few minutes before having to admit that I didn't even know where China was anymore. So much for my battle orders. My games are full of players bleating, crying and wailing in text format and there wasn't much I could do to support them, but I did feel that badcrix's 'wtf?' was terrifically emotional in its brevity.

So is CC World about to collapse under a weight of vindictive lawsuits inspired by that evil harlot, Wicked? I sincerely hope not. But if for CC to survive it needs to advertise itself on its front page with a picture obviously designed by a blind person buggering around with a ruler and an unsharpened pencil then so be it, because I for one need my CC at work to keep me sane in the hours I spend doing literally nothing five days a week.

I support CC!!!

[Simon Viavant]

I don't think wicked trying to do anything to CC. If she was, she'd have stayed around. She knew she was going to get permabanned for posting hunter bypass instructions, it was probably just a final f*ck you to Twill and lack before she left.

[Scott-Land]

Seems as tho beauty is only skin deep- the map is still the same underneath just without any makeup on...

[tammsmu]

As someone who has finished law school, I would say that HASBRO could certainly file a copyright claim against CC, but my money is on the fact that they would lose. Most copyright suits never go to trial. The copyright holder gets a preliminary injunction and the alleged infringer's business is largely destroyed because they can't use the infringing stuff in their business anymore. The end result is either they go broke or reach some kind of settlement with the copyright holder negotiating from a position of strength after the injunction is issued.

There are a few reasons why I don't think that would be the case here.
(1) to get a preliminary injunction the copyright holder (HASBRO) would have to show a irreversable harm to their business and some kind of likelihood that they would prevail. I'm not sure they can meet this standard.

(2) if they do get the injunction what happens. The infringing maps on CC get shut down for a time until this is litigated. There are many original maps on CC that HASBRO would have no claim to and Lac's ability to change/ shut down select maps means that he can likely keep the site up and running in some form. Thus the sting from the injunction isn't nearly as severe.

(3) Round II Litigation... this is where all the lawyers on the board get together and fight this out. Sounds kind of extreme, I know, but copyright bullies only win when people don't fight back. Look at the RIAA. They've extorted millions from people (innocent and guilty alike) because $3000 is a small cost to pay when the risk of going to court is so great. The one verdict they actually one (two hundred something thousand against a single mom) is probably going to be overturned by the judge who issued it no less because the RIAA's lawyers lied about the law. In the context of CC the stakes would probably not be as high. (Lack I hope you've incorporated yourself). If they wanted CC to shut down, we'd really have nothing to lose by fighting back.

(4) and MOST IMPORTANT. They really don't have that good of a case. The copyright law protects expressions of ideas, not the ideas themselves. While the artwork from HASBRO's board game and the language in the rules might be copyrighted, the idea that a high number / dice beats a low number /dice when rolled randomly CANNOT be copyrighted. The idea that one accumulates bonuses that are drawn randomly CANNOT be copyrighted. Neither can most of the stuff on this site. The mechanics of CC are NOT THAT ORIGINAL. What can be copyrighted is all the different variations on the game created here. Each of these maps are the intellectual property of the creator or CC (depending on what you agreed to when you made them). HASBRO has no claim to any of this.

(5) Parody is also protected as fair use under the copyright act. Even if HASBRO made a case that somehow the individual mechanics of Risk were original, one is still allowed to parody a copyrighted work. There's a four part test for parody under the copyright act.

So rest easy Lack, you've created a great game, but should the need arise, take advantage of your thousands of members. In the meantime, I would suggest incorporating yourself, if you haven't done so already. Like any good business, you don't want your personal assets on the hook for what you do in your professional life.

[delahoc]

What is this funny translation?....

I think we are being over paranoid here about changing EVERYTHING. You could have the classic map but instead of Congo just have Angola or something like that....

Works around the law right? it hasn't been copied yeah?

What's wrong with Congo? Hasbro can have no claim over that word. I'll say it again - as long as the classic map is not a scan of Hasbro's copyright-protected board, then having a similar-looking map of the world with country or regional names on it can in no way be considered a copyright breach.

[rwe]

Look, I haven't read all 60-odd pages of the thread, but (speaking only about classic for the moment here) how can Hasbro claim title to a map of the friggin World? I have 8 of them in my office, should I be worried about Hasbro lawyers coming to get me? What a load of cr@p! Hasbro might own a structure of play (ie dice throws to conquer territory etc) but we have KEPT that structure in the new classic map, so if that is the problem we haven't offered any real solution, have we?

[Yablonsky]

I went through the same type of thing on DominateGame.com....it is just another internet based game just like CC....They got around the issue by having maps that were NOT EXACTLY THE SAME....different bonuses and country nams and such....I like this place so much because it has all the diffrerent maps.

I suggest you contct dominategame.com peeps and ask them how they got past Hasbro....they just might help out...just to stick it to Hasbro.

[Ditocoaf]

Look, I haven't read all 60-odd pages of the thread, but (speaking only about classic for the moment here) how can Hasbro claim title to a map of the friggin World? I have 8 of them in my office, should I be worried about Hasbro lawyers coming to get me? What a load of cr@p! Hasbro might own a structure of play (ie dice throws to conquer territory etc) but we have KEPT that structure in the new classic map, so if that is the problem we haven't offered any real solution, have we?

The particular setup of the RISK world map, I expect, is the issue. It's not often you see a map of the world divided up exactly in that very unique way. (For a dice-based and army-based world domination game.)

[delahoc]

I once read that Midkemdil this, but I can't remember where. Apparently that map is based on something but with some modified "region" and "zone" names. Maybe Ontario becomes Onterrio. Indonesia becomes Islandy Area. So forth and so on.

I'll say it again. Hasbro can have no claim whatsoever on place names. You CANNOT copyright place names. You also cannot copyright the concept of a map of the world with place names on it. So the classic map as it appeared here WAS NOT a breach of Hasbro's copyright.

If Hasbro are not asking for changes to the other maps that exist here, they are saying that the gameplay that CC is using is not an issue - because all of those other maps use exactly the same gameplay. I note that the minor changes to some of the terminology used in the gameplay - attack, fortify, cards, etc - may be an effort to reduce any similarity in gameplay, but changing the words DOES NOT change the gameplay. So I think those changes are both unnecessary and actually unwise.

So far, that means:
1) The classic map is not an infringement, because no one can claim copyright over the concept of a world map, and no one can claim copyright over placenames.
2) The gameplay is not an issue, because that has continued unabated in the other maps.

Therefore, given those two main arguments, it seems Hasbro is saying that the issue is gameplay (armies attacking other players to gain territory, outcome determined by dice, issuing of cards for bonuses, etc), in conjunction with a map of the world (the Middle Earth map is a different [though related] issue, I'm sure).

If that's right, then this is a very, VERY weak case in my opinion. Either the whole thing is a breach or none of it is. Saying that just the world map in conjunction with the gameplay is a breach is so weak as to be laughable.

[lexie3000]

I must have missed something. The Classic and Middle Earth maps look like the second stage in the foundary process. Are they being updated?

[delahoc]

As someone who has finished law school, I would say that HASBRO could certainly file a copyright claim against CC, but my money is on the fact that they would lose.

(4) and MOST IMPORTANT. They really don't have that good of a case. The copyright law protects expressions of ideas, not the ideas themselves. While the artwork from HASBRO's board game and the language in the rules might be copyrighted, the idea that a high number / dice beats a low number /dice when rolled randomly CANNOT be copyrighted. The idea that one accumulates bonuses that are drawn randomly CANNOT be copyrighted. Neither can most of the stuff on this site. The mechanics of CC are NOT THAT ORIGINAL. What can be copyrighted is all the different variations on the game created here. Each of these maps are the intellectual property of the creator or CC (depending on what you agreed to when you made them). HASBRO has no claim to any of this.

Thanks tammsmu for summarising and adding to everything I've been saying from the start. There is no copyright infringement here. All of the things that have been changed cannot be claimed as breaches.

So please put it all back!! Revamp and update the classic map by all means, but let's get a proper map back, and revert back to some meaningful terminology.

[hulmey]

The End of the Classic Map - i mean who in there right mind would want to play it now! Lets do some brain storming and see if there is anyway we can graphically improve it! It would mean changing the names of the countries, but it could be the world 500 years ago or 2000 years in the future! But we need it back lol

[hulmey]

The End of the Classic Map - i mean who in there right mind would want to play it now! Lets do some brain storming and see if there is anyway we can graphically improve it! It would mean changing the names of the countries, but it could be the world 500 years ago or 2000 years in the future! But we need it back lol

[owenshooter]

The End of the Classic Map - i mean who in there right mind would want to play it now! Lets do some brain storming and see if there is anyway we can graphically improve it! It would mean changing the names of the countries, but it could be the world 500 years ago or 2000 years in the future! But we need it back lol

um... yeah... that is not the final map, that is just in place of what is going to be the new "classic". read some threads and go to the foundry, amazing what you can find out with
a bit of investigation. and actually, you can be part of the process to help make the new classic
an amazing map (not hard in my opinion, i hated the old classic and am glad to see it go)...-0

[Iron Butterfly]

"You got spoils" isnt meaningful?

[InsomniaRed]

"You got spoils" isnt meaningful?

Flat Spoils. Ya hear?

[PepperJack]

"You got spoils" isnt meaningful?

Flat Spoils. Ya hear?

See, we gotta stick with spoils. Nobody wants Flat Booty.

[InsomniaRed]

"You got spoils" isnt meaningful?

Flat Spoils. Ya hear?

See, we gotta stick with spoils. Nobody wants Flat Booty.

No but we do want escalating booty

[rwe]

I once read that Midkemdil this, but I can't remember where. Apparently that map is based on something but with some modified "region" and "zone" names. Maybe Ontario becomes Onterrio. Indonesia becomes Islandy Area. So forth and so on.

I'll say it again. Hasbro can have no claim whatsoever on place names. You CANNOT copyright place names. You also cannot copyright the concept of a map of the world with place names on it. So the classic map as it appeared here WAS NOT a breach of Hasbro's copyright.

If Hasbro are not asking for changes to the other maps that exist here, they are saying that the gameplay that CC is using is not an issue - because all of those other maps use exactly the same gameplay. I note that the minor changes to some of the terminology used in the gameplay - attack, fortify, cards, etc - may be an effort to reduce any similarity in gameplay, but changing the words DOES NOT change the gameplay. So I think those changes are both unnecessary and actually unwise.

So far, that means:
1) The classic map is not an infringement, because no one can claim copyright over the concept of a world map, and no one can claim copyright over placenames.
2) The gameplay is not an issue, because that has continued unabated in the other maps.

Therefore, given those two main arguments, it seems Hasbro is saying that the issue is gameplay (armies attacking other players to gain territory, outcome determined by dice, issuing of cards for bonuses, etc), in conjunction with a map of the world (the Middle Earth map is a different [though related] issue, I'm sure).

If that's right, then this is a very, VERY weak case in my opinion. Either the whole thing is a breach or none of it is. Saying that just the world map in conjunction with the gameplay is a breach is so weak as to be laughable.

I completely agree with delahoc here. Since the logic is so compelling I suggest we tell Hasbro to stuff off and put the map back the way it was.

[PepperJack]

"You got spoils" isnt meaningful?

Flat Spoils. Ya hear?

See, we gotta stick with spoils. Nobody wants Flat Booty.

No but we do want escalating booty

LA face with the Oakland booty.

Serious question: Of all the threads, why this one? We couldn't start an actual new thread for this? We had to revive a thread that had been dead since July? It was only the biggest news on the site pretty much ever.

[Serpentor]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but from the first time I stumbled upon this great site, I couldn't believe how you guys avoided getting sued to high heaven. Lazy lawyers at Hasbro I suppose..

But seriously, the Middle Earth map, WTF were you guys thinking? Did you honestly believe that wasn't copyrighted??

[rwe]

Couldn't we just spare the existing games the screw up? Maybe all new classic games can be the new bullsh1t format, and the tail of existing games can be the proper map we know and love. That's fair isn't it?

[InsomniaRed]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but from the first time I stumbled upon this great site, I couldn't believe how you guys avoided getting sued to high heaven. Lazy lawyers at Hasbro I suppose..

But seriously, the Middle Earth map, WTF were you guys thinking? Did you honestly believe that wasn't copyrighted??

We have no idea what you're talking about, do we Precious?

[PepperJack]

Couldn't we just spare the existing games the screw up? Maybe all new classic games can be the new bullsh1t format, and the tail of existing games can be the proper map we know and love. That's fair isn't it?

The map is strategically identical. You're just used to the look. You've gotta see it for its Matrix-esque codeified beauty.

[InsomniaRed]

Couldn't we just spare the existing games the screw up? Maybe all new classic games can be the new bullsh1t format, and the tail of existing games can be the proper map we know and love. That's fair isn't it?

The map is strategically identical. You're just used to the look. You've gotta see it for its Matrix-esque codeified beauty.

Make the geometric shapes go away My brain cannot handle a book without pictures. I need something to assault...