Unofficial Clan Ladder - Updated May 17th-2009

[e_i_pi]

Let me pose the question to all then. If I were to do a "Comprehensive Ranking"to take in other considerations, what factors should be included, how would they be measured and to what weighting?

There are 3 I have been thinking of but I'm sure there are more.

Skill (The ability to win)
Strength of Schedule (The quality of wins/losses)
Organization skill (The ability to create and manage a challenge)

Others?

Honestly, I think there's far too much to consider, and far too little data to go by. I know the site has been around for a while, but measuring clans, especially given the dynamic nature of challenges (clans decide how many singles.dubs.trips.quads to play), it doesn't lend well to a ladder. I think the clan league is a good indicator, and possibly having several leagues involving singles, triples, and quads games would be a good indicator. Ultimately though, every measuring tool is going to have bias.

[jpcloet]

Some things like reputations are hard to measure without doing surveys etc.

[reptile]

Let me pose the question to all then. If I were to do a "Comprehensive Ranking"to take in other considerations, what factors should be included, how would they be measured and to what weighting?

There are 3 I have been thinking of but I'm sure there are more.

Skill (The ability to win)
Strength of Schedule (The quality of wins/losses)
Organization skill (The ability to create and manage a challenge)

Others?

Honestly, I think there's far too much to consider, and far too little data to go by. I know the site has been around for a while, but measuring clans, especially given the dynamic nature of challenges (clans decide how many singles.dubs.trips.quads to play), it doesn't lend well to a ladder. I think the clan league is a good indicator, and possibly having several leagues involving singles, triples, and quads games would be a good indicator. Ultimately though, every measuring tool is going to have bias.

[lt.pie]

If your not going to update our win over project enigma nor the monki's win over AI then i would suggest the whole clan ranking list in the first post is entirely worthless and all clans listed should be reset to 100 until the clan doubles league is finalized.

[laddida]

If your not going to update our win over project enigma nor the monki's win over AI then i would suggest the whole clan ranking list in the first post is entirely worthless and all clans listed should be reset to 100 until the clan doubles league is finalized.

yeah what happened to our win vs ia we moved up to like 6th now were back down to 11? whats been going on i havent been keeping up.

[jpcloet]

If your not going to update our win over project enigma nor the monki's win over AI then i would suggest the whole clan ranking list in the first post is entirely worthless and all clans listed should be reset to 100 until the clan doubles league is finalized.

I update this about once a month. I've been working on some tweaks.

Updating the ladder should get much easier soon......

[Bruceswar]

Skill (The ability to win) - Yes that is what this whole ladder is about..
Strength of Schedule (The quality of wins/losses) - 100% agree
Organization skill (The ability to create and manage a challenge) - NO.... This has nothing to do with the ladder if you ask me. This just tells me you are a moron if you cannot complete it.

Others?

[jpcloet]

If your not going to update our win over project enigma nor the monki's win over AI then i would suggest the whole clan ranking list in the first post is entirely worthless and all clans listed should be reset to 100 until the clan doubles league is finalized.

Just went through and will post an update in like 10 minutes. These are the only 2 completed challenges over the last month. There are several near completion and I have 10 active wars noted. One being between #1 ladder LOW vs #2 THOTA.

[waseemalim]

F***ing Awesome.

[firstholliday]

Yes yes YEEEEEEEES we are nr 7

woooooooooooooooot woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot.

[Blitzaholic]

this makes no sense to me
RANK---Clan Name---Points---Wins-Losses---Win%
1 Legends of War 112.32 Points 119-72 62%
2 THOTA 111.27 Points 190-112 63%

we even have a better winning %

[Incandenza]

So, let me get this straight: going 25-5 against a brand new clan composed of cadets and stripers was enough to somehow catapult LoW from #3 to #1? Even though we're undefeated aginst the same if not better competition, and they lost to the Monkis, who aren't even in the top five?

Now I really need to see the math on this, jp, because if a clan can get to the top spot without actually facing ANYONE in the top five, then what's the bleeding point? It's just the CC scoreboard writ small, where Herpes can get to #1 by grinding out freestyle City Mogul games against cadets.

[waseemalim]

So, let me get this straight: going 25-5 against a brand new clan composed of cadets and stripers was enough to somehow catapult LoW from #3 to #1? Even though we're undefeated aginst the same if not better competition, and they lost to the Monkis, who aren't even in the top five?

Now I really need to see the math on this, jp, because if a clan can get to the top spot without actually facing ANYONE in the top five, then what's the bleeding point? It's just the CC scoreboard writ small, where Herpes can get to #1 by grinding out freestyle City Mogul games against cadets.

Here is the List of clans that we have each faced:

THOTA
Bushwackers (31-11)
Knights of Empire (24-16)
Imperial Dragoons (53-47)
Regulators (41-19)
G1 (41-19)

LoW
Project Enigma (25-5)
Untouchables (16-8)
Spanking Monkeys (26-34)
SkyForce (24-13)
G1 (28-12)


Do show me which TOP 5 clan THOTA has played?

The only clan that we have both played is G1. And LoW has a better win % versus them (albeit not statistically significant). I also recall that we had a much better win percentage vs. the dragoons in the old clan league that someone ran, though that challenge is not counted.

Also, the ladder takes into account performance in the clan league.

[jpcloet]

There is no current level of strength of opponent.

The ladder is not perfect and does need to be tweaked. I've been trying different things but it makes the model more complicated. Last weekend, I ended up with some circular calculations.

I think this needs a looksie too.
#6 Agents Of Chaos 102.25 Points 13-7 65%

They have not proven themselves to be top 15 in my mind.

Let's put the spin this way. LOW is now expected to beat THOTA. However, if THOTA wins the current war, then LOW will be punished quite a bit in points.

[waseemalim]

In fact, we played Sky Force (4th on the ladder) and defeated them 24-13. So do get your facts straight at least.

[TheBro]

I think people care way to much about this 'unofficial' ladder. (Especially Firstholliday)

[jpcloet]

Well technically through diverging members

KOE = TUC + LOD + LOW

[jpcloet]

Well the league games will be added very soon as they finish. I need to get this thing improved.

[Incandenza]

I just find it weird that two pages ago you said this:

Due to lack of data, it does not adjust if you beat up a new clan. Still working on that one.

And now LoW is able to vault two places to first by laying a beat-down on a new clan that is now making its debut on the ladder at a robust #27. I'm sorry, that still doesn't make any sense. Besides, I would've figured that LoW would rather claim the top spot by beating us, rather than through some sort of permutation of the ladder calculation.

And wasee, given that the Monkis beat you, it's a bit disingenuous to use them as an example of your accomplishments. Besides, when we beat them, KoE, the bushwackers, and the goons were among the finest clans on the site, and it appears that we're being somewhat punished for the fact that two of the three broke apart like the Challenger after THOTA defeated them.

Look, I'm not mad at you guys, or calling you out. But this thing seems to be turning into the BCS, while I'm sure that both your clan and mine would prefer to see the #1 spot determined on the field, rather than on a spreadsheet.

[jpcloet]

It hasn't been an easy nut to crack. I've tried several things now. We did a BCS poll for fun a while ago and it was clear that very few clans knew much about the other clans.

[jpcloet]

Out of all the suggestions and ideas, I still like the tiered system best. It revolves around the same ELO principles, except you cannot move up a tier until you beat a clan in the tier above you. I will continue to work on that one, and leave the other ones alone for now. I will post that one for comments likely next weekend.

[reptile]

[AndrewB]

you guys didnt like the format, whine about the singles, then the # of games, then the ratio of doubles/triples...

All we've got from you was removal of the singles. But number of games and the ratio and the format is all yours. What are u talking about?

[AndrewB]

And we really appreciate everyone hard work put in this. I can tell, as I am personally doing a lot for CC too (I believe, correct me if I am wrong) by running several very time demanding tournaments.

But if you would think about it without prejudgment to THOTA or our comments etc, you would realize that getting lots of ladder points from the new clan is absurd (even I do share you sentiment helping a new clan start).

[reptile]

And we really appreciate everyone hard work put in this. I can tell, as I am personally doing a lot for CC too (I believe, correct me if I am wrong) by running several very time demanding tournaments.

But if you would think about it without prejudgment to THOTA or our comments etc, you would realize that getting lots of ladder points from the new clan is absurd (even I do share you sentiment helping a new clan start).

i have no feuds with you man.

also, i dont care about the points anymore. i wasnt even thinking about it when we accepted in all honesty.