13 Colonies Quenched!

Sharpsh00ter · Post by **Sharpsh00ter** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:59 pm

Love the map. Great quality and looks very playable. I also loke the idea of having 2 groups of ships one American and one of British. not sure how that would work. Maybe including More Canadian teritories, New Brunswick and a Nova Scotia?

C

Industrial Helix · Post by **Industrial Helix** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:54 am

Wow.... thanks everyone for taking the time to post feedback. Must have got called for preliminary review

Andy - By flat do you mean there should be mountains and rivers, ect? I figure I could add those in, but doing it well and tastefully might be a challenge. I'll give it a shot.

As for the ships, changing them to something akin to the tree is in the plans. Only makes sense right? Or perhaps I could give the trees a little more depth. I'll play with it.

As for the left and right thirds... I think the sea area is pretty packed, actually. Granted its not all playable area, there is stuff going on there. The left side, yeah, its sparse. I'm hoping with the new bonus added in (individual colonies) that it'll take up some space. It's part of the dilemma in working with this specific region, its really long and thin. Not much you can do about it but I think the indian terrs and the ships will round out game play.

As for the border styles, maybe mountains or rivers will spice it up a little.

Thanks again for your feedback.

riodeishere - Not sure what you mean by unproportional... if your talking about the individual colonies, then yeah, should be worked out soon.

Whitestazn - good point. I really don't want the indian terrs. to fall out of play in this game, but at the same time used sparingly. I'll take your advice into consideration in this next update.

LED - The three areas as the major bonus regions I like and will consider. As for only having 13 colonies as 13 terrs. not so much. I thin kit would limit gameplay and the map too much. I mean, many battles happened in a single state, for example. The americans and British weren't just hopping from state to state. I think it would be unrealistic to only have one terr. for each colony, tho necc. for some (rhode island).

As for canada, I've been playing some games with neutral starting bonuses and features and I'm coming to realize more and more that I never use them and favor going straight for my opponent rather than wasting men on a neutral. I think if Canada stayed a playable feature, it would be largely ignored. I think I'm sold on keeping it out.

Jefjef - I'm going to give that a shot with the next update and try a version of this map with each state as its own bonus. It's got to be tinkered, I think, cause right now its not working. I'll keep your advice in mind with the next updates.

sharpsh00ter - That's a plausible idea about the ships, I'll keep it in mind. I don't think the Americans had much of a navy in the war. Maybe french ships or something. I'll give it some thought. As for adding Canadian territories, I dont think I'm going to do that. While parts of Canada played a role in the war, I think adding more of canada would only stretch the map further. Thanks for you comments and ideas!

Industrial Helix · Post by **Industrial Helix** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:03 am

Update:

Ok, the poll has ended with adding in separate bonus areas gaining a narrow majority. That's the idea I'm going to play with first on the next incarnation of this map.

I like the idea of giving 13 bonuses a shot and seeing how it works visually, but I have some qualms with it that I think need to be discussed: Since its random deployment, do you guys think that it has the potential to give a player serious advantage? I mean, if you land new jersey and rhode island and new hampshire, you're up for a bonus of 3 right off the bat. It seems possible but unlikely, but I think the same issues everyone had with British Canada being open to deployment pertains to this as well. Discuss.

I'm going to do my best to get another visual update in before the end of the week. However, I have dissertation work plus I'm going to Egypt on Sunday. I'm going to be gone for a week and this map is going to be the furthest thing from my mind, lol. So hopefully, I will be able to crank out an adjusted map. I think its feasible. But the following week, I won't be working on it.

Mods, if you feel this warrants vacation time, so be it. I'd rather not get moved, assuming I get out a new map by the end of the week. But I understand if a short vacation if I don't get the next visual update in.

So, finally, I hope to get this next map out soon then

thanks everyone!

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:32 pm

Look forward to your next update and how it pans out visually and mechanically...hm

--Andy

RedBaron0 · Post by **RedBaron0** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:12 pm

Looks good Helix. Image wise, slide that territory border between Yorktown and Arlington, the part along the Chesapeake coast, to the north a smidgen, Yorktown itself is probably just to the north of that line, it's semantics, I know, but it is the decisive battle of the Revolution after all.

I think you probably don't have to add abbreviation explanations for Rhode Island and Delaware, in fact you could fit "Delaware" on the map, it's only 5 more letters. (Of course as an American who lives in the region, just because I know what the abbreviations mean doesn't mean everyone else does, and I probably shouldn't just offhandedly figure everyone else knows what they mean...

)

13 bonuses is a bit much, I agree. As an alternative, how about something along the lines of adding some sort of ballot to the map. The 13 colonies voting for the Declaration of Independence and give bonuses for having a particular voting block. (The South, New England, Moderates, Big colonies, Small colonies, etc.) Connect them to each other and to the capital territories within each colony. Of course adding 13 more territories might be a bit much, but adds a uniquely American element that could be interesting.

pimphawks70 · Post by **pimphawks70** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:17 pm

Maybe Georgia should only be worth two... It is only accessible from two other territories and holding a 3 bonus for one turn gives that player a HUGE advantage. I don't know if this is the point in the map-making progress when something like that is addressed or not but I thought it was worth mentioning...

Pimphawks70

lostatlimbo · Post by **lostatlimbo** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:47 pm

RedBaron0 wrote: how about something along the lines of adding some sort of ballot to the map. The 13 colonies voting for the Declaration of Independence and give bonuses for having a particular voting block. (The South, New England, Moderates, Big colonies, Small colonies, etc.) Connect them to each other and to the capital territories within each colony. Of course adding 13 more territories might be a bit much, but adds a uniquely American element that could be interesting.

I really like the idea of this as a game objective. Maybe make the ballot boxes neutral (or if you want to get fancy, have the signatures be territories?) and require a player to hold all 13 (declaring independence) to win the game.

pimphawks70 · Post by **pimphawks70** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:28 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote: how about something along the lines of adding some sort of ballot to the map. The 13 colonies voting for the Declaration of Independence and give bonuses for having a particular voting block. (The South, New England, Moderates, Big colonies, Small colonies, etc.) Connect them to each other and to the capital territories within each colony. Of course adding 13 more territories might be a bit much, but adds a uniquely American element that could be interesting.
I really like the idea of this as a game objective. Maybe make the ballot boxes neutral (or if you want to get fancy, have the signatures be territories?) and require a player to hold all 13 (declaring independence) to win the game.

Sounds like an excellent idea, but I think that a more reasonable objective would be better. On most maps that require objectives,the objective is extremely difficult to get; by the time anybody captures it the game already has a clear victor. I would love to see a map in which players could battle for objectives instead of an objective merely being a way to avoid clean up... This is extremely circumstantial considering the person making the map hasn't even stated if he wanted an objective or not.

Pimphawks70

jefjef · Post by **jefjef** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:07 pm

I do believe 10 (small) bonus areas would work well on this limited area map.... Split new england & carolinas & reconfigure new york / penn-trenton / maryland-delaware.. & to make it a real battlefield make one or two of the middle bonus areas (like Virginia & penn) worth a couple more than any of the others..... I know i would use troops to keep someone from having them instead of just forting or trying for a smaller bonus......

as far as a victory objective... control of all colonies was the objective...the war wasnt won because the british were "voted" out.. i'm against a victory objective other than anihilation of the enemy.

josta59 · Post by **josta59** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:17 pm

Just don't get rid of Saratoga, please! That's where I live, and I'm excited about it.

Industrial Helix · Post by **Industrial Helix** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:24 am

Wow, a lot of great ideas being put forth. The ballot idea is an interesting one and I think I would like to toy with that some, when I get a chance. Should be first thing next week. Ive been pretty busyright now at school with my dissertation, just didn't have to time address the map properly and have another visual update. Like I said before, Im going to be in Egypt this week and wont have time for cartography. As a matter of fact, Im at heathrow right now and our flight keeps getting delayed. kind of ridiculous, really. So mods, if you feel this qaulifies for some vacation time, i understand, but i plan to hit the ground running come next week.

Post by **iancanton** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:31 am

Poll Result wrote:How should the 13 colonies be represented in this map?
Poll ended at Sun 2009 Jun 14 20:12

Redistribute the bonus areas... 4... 27%
Additional bonus per colony, group bonuses included... 8... 53%
Cut out all bonus areas... 1... 7%
Other, please specify... 2... 13%

Total votes : 15

ian.

MrBenn · Post by **MrBenn** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:05 pm

An idea I had (that you can feel free to ignore at your discretion), was that you could represent England, with a sizeable autodeploy. Between England and America, you could also have a sizeable killer neutral... this would represent the threat of an attack from overseas- but that any attack from England would be a while in coming / be at a cost. The problem would be making it work in such a way as to not guarantee the English player a victory (by stacking/being unattackable)

That's the random idea that I would have tried to implement on my attempt at an American Revolutionary War map

barterer2002 · Post by **barterer2002** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:22 am

I'm still curious as to why the Indian Terts need to start neutral? Are there big advantages to them or is there something else dealing with them that would require them to be neutral?

jefjef · Post by **jefjef** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:50 am

England is already represented by the SHIPS.. It's their navy.... adding england would invariably guarantee victory to who had it.(cept for a spoils game I spose) and the indian neutrals is wilderness that really wasnt friendly to either side.

sailorc · Post by **sailorc** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:28 pm

looks like a great map. can't wait to try it.

just a few questions though: what's the point of holding Indian Territory if there's no bonuses for it? it seems to me the only benefit would be to flank the enemy...

Also, but very minor: in rules, the abbreviations are shown for Del. (Delaware) and R.I. (Rhode Island), but not Conn. It's obviously Connecticut, and it's not very important. just mentioning

captainwalrus · Post by **captainwalrus** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:52 pm

Phillidelphia should boarder Delaware, not Vally forge bordering Delaware. Also, the region that is call Allegheny is where the Appilation mountains are, and the region called Appilatia is where the Allegheny river is. The names should be switched. The Georgia bonus is a little high, 2 would work better. The boarders in the New York region are hard to see, so I can't tell well what borders conn. and Bunker Hill.

barterer2002 · Post by **barterer2002** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:12 am

captainwalrus wrote:Phillidelphia should boarder Delaware, not Vally forge bordering Delaware.

Valley Forge is fine bordering Delaware. Since its representing the western suburbs of Philadelphia all the way out to York and that would include Delaware County (which shares the border with Delaware). the Philadelphia region is drawn to represent all the northern parts of the state all the way up to Williamsport really. I wouldn't have an issue with Philadelphia bordering Delaware but Valley Forge doing so is OK as well.

Industrial Helix · Post by **Industrial Helix** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:17 am

Thanks for the continued thoughts and support.

Mr Benn... Personally I think i'd like to keep England out of the map as for the majority of the war, Britain had issues in Europe with France and Spain. Direct invasion from England didn't seem like a realistic possibility and a majority of the British fighting was on the part of the military units already there. I think jefjef has a good point in saying the superior military power is represented by the ships (wish i thought of it myself actually).

As for some of the other comments and questions, I think a rewriting of the rules and restatement should suffice. After so many updates the rules have seemed to get jumbled up. Expect a more formal update within the week with the new visual image.

As it stands at the moment, The Indian territories will start a neutral 2; showing their inactivity during the war while offering a potential alternative route between the colonies. They will also be killer neutrals.

The notion of having two groups of connected ships is a good one, I'll play around with it.

The next update should be within a few days. I think the idea of a ballot/declaration of independence is the best offered so far to give the colonies some identification. I'm thinking each colony has a capital, marked by a star troop circle. That star troop circle can attack the neutral declaration, say neutral 1. This will result in a bonus of 1 or 2, perhaps autodeploy 1 on the capital. Thoughts?

jefjef · Post by **jefjef** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:03 pm

The notion of having two groups of connected ships is a good one, I'll play around with it.
The next update should be within a few days. I think the idea of a ballot/declaration of independence is the best offered so far to give the colonies some identification. I'm thinking each colony has a capital, marked by a star troop circle. That star troop circle can attack the neutral declaration, say neutral 1. This will result in a bonus of 1 or 2, perhaps autodeploy 1 on the capital. Thoughts?[/quote]
I like the killer neutral 2..... And an addition of a french fleet ( how about 1 ship or 2 at most) worth 1 or 2.. It isnt like they really played a major part.. they arrived after the war was all but won. As for capitols...... Ya might be overloading a heavily bonused map as it is. The british weren't voted out... They where kicked out! But it would add another strategic aspect to the game.. Great work Helix................... Looking forward to it!

Industrial Helix · Post by **Industrial Helix** » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:03 am

Click image to enlarge.

Ok, the new changes have been quite vexing and I'm still at a loss for ideas as to how I'm going to fix some stuff...

First up, the changes made:

Simplified the ship ships to match the style of the trees, still not happy, but its a step in the right direction.
Trenton to New Jersey
13 bonuses for 13 colonies.
Added a convoluted key with tentative bonuses.
Added in the rules that Indian terrs. revert to 2 after each round.

Problems and concerns
The key is.. wow... its a problem. Can I just place numbers in the terrs and leave the names out? I seriously need some ideas cause I'm out at the moment.

Bonuses. Ok, there's a lot of single man bonuses that a player can potentially land to get an unfair edge. I'm thinking about grouping the smaller states into bonus regions, say, Rhode Island and Conn. for a bonus of 1... but then it gets away from having 13 regions. Still unsure as what to do.

Anyway, I'll see what the mods say about the above concerns and then I will decide what to do.

jefjef · Post by **jefjef** » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:27 am

Sir I think you need to region the small states back together.. The southern half looks great.. 10 bonus areas would be more than enough for this map... But like this a great drop - 1st move & ok dice wins....

jaytorade · Post by **jaytorade** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:51 pm

maybe you could do what the USA maps or some of the other maps do when holding capitols

for an example holding 3 New England states = +1 hold 4 =+2 or some scheme similar to that. SO you can still have them as separate territory, but modify the bonus so some one doesnt run away with it.

Industrial Helix · Post by **Industrial Helix** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:38 am

Hmm... now that's not a bad idea. Now I just have to figure out how to translate it graphically.

EDIT: I had a thought as I was supposed to be researching my dissertation... what if the entire bonus structure was based around hold x amount of colonies get so much bonus. I'd gravitate the conflict towards the north, but that's where most of the war took place anyway.

Make the bonus +1 for two colonies, +2 for 3 colonies, ect. Maybe start it off at +1 for holding 3 colonies, not sure... thoughts?

whitestazn88 · Post by **whitestazn88** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:36 pm

the update is a really good improvement with the indians and all. i'm not sold on the current bonus structure, but i'm sure it will eventually get resolved. if you are gonna keep the bonuses as is, then the legend can be made with just the numbers and no names imo...

13 Colonies Quenched!

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