Durrge wrote:ha another thread questioning the existence of God. Pitting Christians against atheists in an argument that will never end, becuse one side cannot convience the other side into thinking their way. The way i see it Dancingmustard is you made this thread just to argue your belief(or lack there of one), just look at your posts thats all youve been doing, quoteing one person and trying to come up with another point to try and disprove their comment. But if you are not arguing for the sake of argument, then ill give you proof of Gods existence:
That's a nice calendar, but you forgot to post July through December's photos...I didn't know that gods made calenders. I learn something new everyday.
Last edited by King_Herpes on Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry about your little butt ✪ Dumb fucking e-lambs the lot of you
jay_a2j wrote:hey if any1 would like me to make them a signature or like an avator just let me no, my sig below i did, and i also did "panther 88" so i can do something like that for u if ud like...
PLAYER57832 wrote:I am NOT going to diverget this thread
Don't worry about it... Clapper has already gone ahead and de-railed all three.
Now we're back to the regular position of just having one huge "THERE R NO GOD" thread, in which any argument more subtle than "If God is real then he must be a retard", "no u r a retard!! God hates you!! FAG!!", "Screw u, u are a retard, your priest absued you", "Waaah!! Stop that!! Atheists are fanatics just like those dewds who blew up 911!! they r teh sayme thing", "lol at u. That's the dumbest ting I evar herd! God = Leprechaun", "Ontology is 4 real!!!", will be trampled underfoot and in which any semblance of intelligent discourse is doomed to be drowned out by retarded braying.
Apparently Clappy thinks that a single thread of total banality (which is precisely like every other 'no God' thread we've ever had here) is less spammy than three separate threads which attempt to generate fresh, specific and insightful discussions that we've never previously had. Personally that seems odd to me... but I'm sure that it's all for the best really, and certainly not just another example of a dumb person trying to moderate cleverer ones, only to get confused by concepts that she doesn't understand and resorting to the mod-panel in a fit of intellectually-feeble panic.
\
I phrased it differently, but I essentially agree. That said, the topic of Evolution, which is what JJM addressed has plenty of threads and is dealt with extensively in the Real University as well. I do like debating it, (though I am afraid I have yet to see any real debate, except "read the Bible" ... "I do" ... "no you obviously don't because you disagree with me"..etc.) but I don't think every discussion about God has to center around Evolution.
Also, because I have little belief in our moderator's willingness to return to the scene of their crimes for quality control reasons... could I urge everybody who thinks that merging these three threads was a bad idea, to send Clapper a quick PM pointing that out to her.
After all, if we made a simple error while using the forums, sure as hell we'd get a PM about it. I think it's only fair that she receives the same.
Wayne wrote:Wow, with a voice like that Dancing Mustard must get all the babes!
Garth wrote:Yeah, I bet he's totally studly and buff.
PLAYER57832 wrote:I don't think every discussion about God has to center around Evolution.
Well exactly... but apparently our current moderators seem to unable to appreciate that fact, preferring to lump and/all theological discussions into useless and homogenous behemoths like this one.
Wayne wrote:Wow, with a voice like that Dancing Mustard must get all the babes!
Garth wrote:Yeah, I bet he's totally studly and buff.
I believe the only real bit of true evidence we have, that there may be an all powerful force, is the simple fact that so many believe in this force. The sheer volume, and the sheer willingness and determination of people to believe is so strong, that it is difficult to simply discount all together without at least considering it.
I believe this is the only bit of real tangible evidence there is. I believe any bible, or religious book simply is irrelevant, by the fact that there are so many versions, and so many differing, often opposite writings in them. I think any real outside powerful God, certainly any God of pure good, would not have allowed this situation.
So, considering the only thing we know about God that we can prove, is that many people believe in him...or something similar to him.
Unfortunately, there are many possible explanations for this too. For one thing, it very well could be a new phenomenon with our species. Its possible that we started off with no such beliefs, and over time, as more and more believed, that the trait got passed down, to become a standard path of our neurological system. We could be as hardwired to believe in a God, almost as much as we are to hunt, simply because of the repetition of the act, of the couples that reproduced.
Also, the explanation could simply be that we believe, because we were told to believe, but this doesnt quite fit, because so many different religions have sprouted, and so many definitions of God, have been created, that it really does seem to be an inherent trait of the species. Even those of the most scientific minds, the most rational, sometimes cant shake the feeling that there is a God, even when every rational though knows it to be false.
So, if you are looking for proof of a God, the starting place must be to research the reason behind beliefs of him. It is the only tangible evidence of him. Further, in a sense, it is actually possible to state that God does exist because of this. He may not be a human formed being with ultimate powers, but it is possible that you can prove he exists, simply because so many people believe in him. It is possible to speculate that the collection of people all praying, all worshiping, and all living their lives to please him, creates his existence. Now while true, that he can not affect anything directly, he is, on a constant and daily level, affecting people in a very real way. It could be said that because peoples lives are changed by their beliefs, than when they benefit from this belief, that an actual miracle happens. Again, all the various stories and details do not have to exist, or be even remotely close. Just the fact that a force comes into being, with real impact. While completely invented, and in a sense created by man himself, that does mean that he exists, as a real power.
So, while it is impossible to prove that any all powerful, outside force controls and created everything exists, and that if such a being or force did not reveal himself, than there is no proof whatsoever that God exists.
However, if you want proof that a version of God exists, which is an idea, which has become so ingrained in so many lives, as to become a force in and of itself, that performs miracles, shapes peoples lives, helps them choose good over evil, then I say that that God exists. That the power of God is derived from the complete manifestation of billions of believers, all being affected by that power every day. The proof is everywhere in this situation, and is proven every time someone professes his existence.
Using this method, I believe it is very possible to state uniformly and unoquivocally: that God does exist. He has for a long time, in many shapes and forms. While his existence is actually a creation of man itself and has no physical presence whatsoever, it has come to create, by the power of the belief of the human being, and will continue to have that power, until we relinquish it. In this definition of God, God is a power that affects all, is everywhere, and guides our decision making, affects our health, and has a true and unmistakable and very tangible, and proven impact on every aspect of the world.
So, I have defined a God. I have given proven examples of his existence. I have given proven and tangible examples of his power, and physical effects on the world as requested. With every new believer, his power grows stronger. With every new poster, more proof is given of his existence. We have created a God. We have given him great power. This power has allowed, and changed history, and countless, if not every life on the planet now.
Prove that this God does not exist.
I'm Spanking Monkey now....err...I mean I'm a Spanking Monkey now...that shoots milk Too much. I know.
Most of you will have read (or at the very least heard of) Douglas Adam's "The Hitch-Hiker's guide To The Galaxy" I assume?
There's a relevant bit where some enterprising Theist proves that God exists, but as God (is alleged to have) said that proof denied faith, God promptly says "Oh Bugger" and disappears in a cloud of logic.
This is all ultimately pointless and silly. Fun though...
AAFitz wrote:I believe the only real bit of true evidence we have, that there may be an all powerful force, is the simple fact that so many believe in this force. The sheer volume, and the sheer willingness and determination of people to believe is so strong, that it is difficult to simply discount all together without at least considering it.
I cut your quote short, just to save space (seems that is a critical issue now ).
In a way, this is part of what the whole "God versus science" debate is about, or rather, what the debate about those on either extreme wish to assert.
Those of the conservative Christian/other religious beliefs (I stick to Christianity because I know it, but belief the fundamental point would be the same) AND those of science each want to point to what THEY see and what THEY belief and hold it up above what THEY do not see or believe. In reality, both mindsets are equally flawed.
To really expand, find solutions you have to be willing to conceive, understand (not necessarily believe, but at least consider fully) what OTHER people think, see and believe.
The reath truth of both science and God is not in the exclusion of the other, but in the melding of the two. Neither really and truly has the ability to exclude the other. Attempting to do so narrows the vision of each, limits thiking and reduces abilities to see solutions.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Lord+Master wrote:Most of you will have read (or at the very least heard of) Douglas Adam's "The Hitch-Hiker's guide To The Galaxy" I assume?
There's a relevant bit where some enterprising Theist proves that God exists, but as God (is alleged to have) said that proof denied faith, God promptly says "Oh Bugger" and disappears in a cloud of logic.
This is all ultimately pointless and silly. Fun though...
Clapper, I agree with Mustard completely here. Splitting the subject up like that was the best idea for having a serious, NON-SPAM discussion, that I have seen in a long time.
Consider how weird it is for me to agree with Mustard on anything, and please take that as evidence that what I'm saying is true.
I humbly request that if it is possible, you restore the three threads as they were. -- daddy1gringo (end of PM)
Anybody else who liked the idea, please PM as well.
The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer to the real question.
PLAYER57832 wrote:
I cut your quote short, just to save space (seems that is a critical issue now ).
Well, I will too then.. I will point out, about my whole....rambling there, that I was simply just trying to answer his question and give prove of a powerful god, which, I think I did to some degree. It wasnt perhaps the same god he was referring to, but that God...a power which controls and influences human life on earth and its history, indeed exists, in real and tangible way. There's no discounting that, or disproving it....that I can think of.
If anyone noticed, I jumped right into the middle of both atheists and theists, and more or less am suggesting they are both wrong..
I'm Spanking Monkey now....err...I mean I'm a Spanking Monkey now...that shoots milk Too much. I know.
PLAYER57832 wrote:
I cut your quote short, just to save space (seems that is a critical issue now ).
Well, I will too then.. I will point out, about my whole....rambling there, that I was simply just trying to answer his question and give prove of a powerful god, which, I think I did to some degree. It wasnt perhaps the same god he was referring to, but that God...a power which controls and influences human life on earth and its history, indeed exists, in real and tangible way. There's no discounting that, or disproving it....that I can think of.
If anyone noticed, I jumped right into the middle of both atheists and theists, and more or less am suggesting they are both wrong..
You make a point. I, of course, do believe in God, but it isinteresting that even religions "without God" actually offer attribute similar to those of God .. they just attribute a different causation.
Durrge wrote:ha another thread questioning the existence of God. Pitting Christians against atheists in an argument that will never end, becuse one side cannot convience the other side into thinking their way. The way i see it Dancingmustard is you made this thread just to argue your belief(or lack there of one), just look at your posts thats all youve been doing, quoteing one person and trying to come up with another point to try and disprove their comment. But if you are not arguing for the sake of argument, then ill give you proof of Gods existence:
That is probably the best arguement a person can make. I refuse to believe all that beauty and perfection just popped out of nowhere. I've actually sat down numberous times and thought about this. I have a very hard time believing that the world came into existence without purpose or a creator. It really does amaze me how some people look at the possiblity of God's existence and still think that everything appearing out of thin air is the more logical answer. It's kinda funny actually.
Things are now unfolding that only prophecy can explain!
That is probably the best arguement a person can make. I refuse to believe all that beauty and perfection just popped out of nowhere. I've actually sat down numberous times and thought about this. I have a very hard time believing that the world came into existence without purpose or a creator. It really does amaze me how some people look at the possiblity of God's existence and still think that everything appearing out of thin air is the more logical answer. It's kinda funny actually
Key word, you refuse.
You don't say i find it logically more likely, you say you refuse to seriously consider any alternative, pretty much says it all.
I'm sure we've discussed many times how evolution works, even how the universe worked after the first seconds. So we don't know what happened in those first seconds yet, hardly a good reason to posit the existence of a undetectable, more complex than the universe being to explain the universe.
Before we knew about germs would it have been logically valid to assume that there's a god that strikes the people he doesn't like and makes them ill? No because it makes no sense to explain one thing by imagining that a unexplained, more complex thing is causing it.
But to resume, do you want me to start posting pictures of baby with birth defects? I've seen some lovely ones, and they're also part of this "perfect universe"
Highest score: 3063; Highest position: 67;
Winner of {World War II tournament, -team 2010 Skilled Diversity, [FuN||Chewy]-[XII] USA};
8-3-7
That is probably the best arguement a person can make. I refuse to believe all that beauty and perfection just popped out of nowhere. I've actually sat down numberous times and thought about this. I have a very hard time believing that the world came into existence without purpose or a creator. It really does amaze me how some people look at the possiblity of God's existence and still think that everything appearing out of thin air is the more logical answer. It's kinda funny actually
Key word, you refuse.
You don't say i find it logically more likely, you say you refuse to seriously consider any alternative, pretty much says it all.
I'm sure we've discussed many times how evolution works, even how the universe worked after the first seconds. So we don't know what happened in those first seconds yet, hardly a good reason to posit the existence of a undetectable, more complex than the universe being to explain the universe.
Before we knew about germs would it have been logically valid to assume that there's a god that strikes the people he doesn't like and makes them ill? No because it makes no sense to explain one thing by imagining that a unexplained, more complex thing is causing it.
But to resume, do you want me to start posting pictures of baby with birth defects? I've seen some lovely ones, and they're also part of this "perfect universe"
A baby or any human for that matter has nothing to do with the perfection of the universe or more specificly, planet earth.
Things are now unfolding that only prophecy can explain!
That is probably the best arguement a person can make. I refuse to believe all that beauty and perfection just popped out of nowhere. I've actually sat down numberous times and thought about this. I have a very hard time believing that the world came into existence without purpose or a creator. It really does amaze me how some people look at the possiblity of God's existence and still think that everything appearing out of thin air is the more logical answer. It's kinda funny actually
Key word, you refuse.
You don't say i find it logically more likely, you say you refuse to seriously consider any alternative, pretty much says it all.
I'm sure we've discussed many times how evolution works, even how the universe worked after the first seconds. So we don't know what happened in those first seconds yet, hardly a good reason to posit the existence of a undetectable, more complex than the universe being to explain the universe.
Before we knew about germs would it have been logically valid to assume that there's a god that strikes the people he doesn't like and makes them ill? No because it makes no sense to explain one thing by imagining that a unexplained, more complex thing is causing it.
But to resume, do you want me to start posting pictures of baby with birth defects? I've seen some lovely ones, and they're also part of this "perfect universe"
A baby or any human for that matter has nothing to do with the perfection of the universe or more specificly, planet earth.
So then what do you mean by perfect?
Perfect in what sense? Perfect for what purpose?
Highest score: 3063; Highest position: 67;
Winner of {World War II tournament, -team 2010 Skilled Diversity, [FuN||Chewy]-[XII] USA};
8-3-7
That is probably the best arguement a person can make. I refuse to believe all that beauty and perfection just popped out of nowhere. I've actually sat down numberous times and thought about this. I have a very hard time believing that the world came into existence without purpose or a creator. It really does amaze me how some people look at the possiblity of God's existence and still think that everything appearing out of thin air is the more logical answer. It's kinda funny actually
Key word, you refuse.
You don't say i find it logically more likely, you say you refuse to seriously consider any alternative, pretty much says it all.
I'm sure we've discussed many times how evolution works, even how the universe worked after the first seconds. So we don't know what happened in those first seconds yet, hardly a good reason to posit the existence of a undetectable, more complex than the universe being to explain the universe.
Before we knew about germs would it have been logically valid to assume that there's a god that strikes the people he doesn't like and makes them ill? No because it makes no sense to explain one thing by imagining that a unexplained, more complex thing is causing it.
But to resume, do you want me to start posting pictures of baby with birth defects? I've seen some lovely ones, and they're also part of this "perfect universe"
A baby or any human for that matter has nothing to do with the perfection of the universe or more specificly, planet earth.
So then what do you mean by perfect?
Perfect in what sense? Perfect for what purpose?
Perfect in the sense that the earth is self-sustaining. It does not need us and if the earth were without humans then it would stay perfect. We are the only imperfection on this planet but the planet itself is truly perfect.
Last edited by Gregrios on Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Things are now unfolding that only prophecy can explain!
daddy1gringo wrote:Now hold on, that's something entirely different. I assert that I know God exists, and a good deal more about Him. I do NOT assert that I can prove that he exists to anyone else. As a matter of fact I have asserted from the beginning that I cannot.
Well when I say that I mean that you can't be 100% sure that He exists. Even if you believe that you have had some sort of revelation, there's always the slight possibility that your mind is fooling you.
Even if you believe you have absolute proof, either way, there's always the slight possibility that your mind is fooling you.
The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer to the real question.
).
