For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

[Woodruff]

[spoiler=4mygods post]

I agree. If the max punishment was smaller and just repeated, not escalating then it would be easier to be very strict with it. Perhaps 6 months is too much, maybe something like 1 month for minor infractions.

Escalating Punishment Scale
Warning
24 Hour ban 1 Week ban
1 Month ban

Semi-Escalating Punishment Scale
Warning
1 Week ban (repeat)

You could just get rid of escalating all together and punish all minor infractions with a 1 week ban, no warning. Or 1 warning then week bans from there on out for each infraction.

The only reason I can see for a warning is because some new people who come to the site may not know how strict the admins/mods here are with punishment, or what crosses the line or where the line is. Yeah, it's in the community guidelines, however they don't know how strictly the mods plan to follow those guidelines. So the 1 warning is like "this would have been a 1 week ban." Then they know and can see that the mods are there and reacting to people who break the rules.

So after they get that first Warning they never need it again, there is no reason for it to go back to just a warning again, because now the user should know where the line is drawn for the rest of his time on the site.

[/spoiler]

Though a novel idea, I think for now we will be working with the current escalation disciplinary scale, in some varying form of operation we decide.

Is it just a matter of not wanting to have to seemingly continuously have to dish out the 1-week bans to the idiots that refuse to change their ways? I'm definitely not disagreeing if that's the case...I'm just curious if that is the motivation or if it's something else.

[squishyg]

I think the key here is minor issues. There just does not seem to be that much of a distinction between minor issues and major ones.

I very much agree. Maybe offenses need to be separated into offenses against the site or in-game offenses and offenses against users (which might happen more often in the forums or in chat), with each category being split into minor and major offenses. I also see the need to separate offenses which merit website bans and offenses which merit forum/chat bans, since some offenses are things that people do in games and some are things people do with words. That would address concerns that people lose their ability to play the game for something they wrote in the forums. Perhaps this can be done as follows, using offenses already listed in the community guidelines:

Offenses and consequences proposal:

Major site/in-game offenses- ex. Gambling, hijacking an account
Punishment scale - Permanent site ban? (I don't know how often these things happen and if there's any reason to be more lenient for a first offense. Other opinions/personal experience welcome)

Minor site/in-game offenses - ex. Creating a multi, intentionally deadbeating, Repeatedly Holding Players Hostage,
Serial Teammate Killing, farming
Punishment scale - Warning, 1 Week site ban, 1 Month site ban, 6 month site ban (continued offenses get 6 month site ban)

Major user offenses - ex. Bigotry, Cyber-bullying/Harassment, Personal Information Abuse
Punishment scale - 1 month, 6 months, 1 year (this would give offenders time to mature and hopefully re-enter cc society as wiser, kinder people, continued offenses get 1 month ban)

Minor user offenses - ex. Baiting, trolling, flaming,
Punishment scale - Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week ban, 1 Month ban (continued offenses get 1 month ban)

[sailorseal]

I think there needs to be more levels of warning like:
Friendly, Harsh, Admin Friendly, Admin Harsh then ban

[Woodruff]

I think the key here is minor issues. There just does not seem to be that much of a distinction between minor issues and major ones.

I very much agree. Maybe offenses need to be separated into offenses against the site or in-game offenses and offenses against users (which might happen more often in the forums or in chat), with each category being split into minor and major offenses. I also see the need to separate offenses which merit website bans and offenses which merit forum/chat bans, since some offenses are things that people do in games and some are things people do with words. That would address concerns that people lose their ability to play the game for something they wrote in the forums.

Has anyone actually lost their ability to play games because of something they wrote in the forums? I don't believe this has happened unless, possibly, it had to do with porn. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure they just get a forum perma-ban at worst.

[squishyg]

I think the key here is minor issues. There just does not seem to be that much of a distinction between minor issues and major ones.

I very much agree. Maybe offenses need to be separated into offenses against the site or in-game offenses and offenses against users (which might happen more often in the forums or in chat), with each category being split into minor and major offenses. I also see the need to separate offenses which merit website bans and offenses which merit forum/chat bans, since some offenses are things that people do in games and some are things people do with words. That would address concerns that people lose their ability to play the game for something they wrote in the forums.

Has anyone actually lost their ability to play games because of something they wrote in the forums? I don't believe this has happened unless, possibly, it had to do with porn. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure they just get a forum perma-ban at worst.

My understanding is that people (t-o-m, until it was removed, DM) are being website banned, which includes playing games.

[timmytuttut88]

What the hell is with people wanting more level of punishment? Major and minor is fine for christs sake. Do we really want to end up with something more complicated? Would a "Major, moderately major, moderate, moderately minor, minor" really improve things? Two scales is fine and the only real problem is the perma-ban for the minor offenses.

[timmytuttut88]

I think the key here is minor issues. There just does not seem to be that much of a distinction between minor issues and major ones.

I very much agree. Maybe offenses need to be separated into offenses against the site or in-game offenses and offenses against users (which might happen more often in the forums or in chat), with each category being split into minor and major offenses. I also see the need to separate offenses which merit website bans and offenses which merit forum/chat bans, since some offenses are things that people do in games and some are things people do with words. That would address concerns that people lose their ability to play the game for something they wrote in the forums.

Has anyone actually lost their ability to play games because of something they wrote in the forums? I don't believe this has happened unless, possibly, it had to do with porn. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure they just get a forum perma-ban at worst.

Yes, t-o-m would have been banned from games if they didn't realize what they had done wrong and what he did had to do with forums.

(Not 100% sure, but pretty sure interfacer PH and deliaselene were site banned for forum things)

[squishyg]

What the hell is with people wanting more level of punishment? Major and minor is fine for christs sake. Do we really want to end up with something more complicated? Would a "Major, moderately major, moderate, moderately minor, minor" really improve things? Two scales is fine and the only real problem is the perma-ban for the minor offenses.

I can't speak for everyone, but my logic is that doing something naughty in the forums shouldn't affect your ability to play games. Different crime, different punishment.

[AndyDufresne]

Dancing Mustard is only Permanent Forum Vacationed. A very small number of users in the entire site's history have received a Permanent Website Vacation---and an even smaller number have received that level for "Forum Infractions" ---the large majority received it for various Gaming Infractions of some kind.


--Andy

[squishyg]

Thanks for the clarification Andy.

[notyou2]

This gets to something I have thought. Discipline for forum abuses and things like point dumping need to have differing penalties. I don't really think DM as all that worried about points. Nor were his infractions (to my knowledge) anything to do with playing, just as an example. On the other side, you have folks who never peeked in the forums, but have point-dumped, etc.

IN some cases (Klobber comes to mind), folks may abuse all sides, but those can be dealt with as what they are -- combined cases.

If you look at the Community Guidelines, we essentially already have this. Most of the Forum/Chat abuses fall under Minor Infractions. Most of the Gaming abuses fall under Major/Severe Infractions.

=========================================


Hm, lets see what we've got so far:

Option 1

For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would remain unchanged:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, Permanent
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
(Keep in mind, these levels don't just include Forums, but Live Chat as well as gaming on the website as well).

This is the system we have currently.

Option 2

1
For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months, Permanent
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent

Option 3

For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent

We'd keep with the general current system we have no---no probationary periods, etc.

If a user comes back after a 6 Month Vacation, if their next Infraction was a Minor Infraction they would be hit with another 6 Month Vacation, no matter the period of time elapsed from the last Vacation. If their next Infraction was instead a Major/Severe Infraction, it'd probably lead to a Permanent Vacation.

Option 4

For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent

Upon a user coming back after a 6 Month Vacation, if they go 6 months without a Minor or Major/Severe Infraction, their Disciplinary level could be bumped down to 1 Month for their next Minor Infraction. Should they then after those 6 months, have a Minor Infraction, they would get a 1 Month Vacation, and upon their return from the 1 Month Vacation, their next Minor Infraction would lead them to a 6 Month Vacation.

Then there are the even more radical schemes of sweeping rollbacks, but I don't think we can entertain any of those ideas at the current time.

Option 1 seems to have some current opposition, Option 2 is one proposed middle ground Option 3 is also a proposed middle ground, Option 4 is another proposed middle ground.

I think Option 4, however, may be getting to the point of making things too difficult or complex for a World Domination based gaming website.


--Andy

I vote #4, or at the very least #3.

I also think we need to look at the big picture. This is a start but I think all mods/admins need extremely clear and concise rules and examples to follow to eliminate the subjectiveness and arbitrariness. It appears subjectiveness is not a word...oh well I coined one. I believe all of this is directly related to this topic, so please don't tell me I'm off topic.

It also seems many users get upset for people being banned for what the same users felt were minor infractions, and when noise is made, it apparently falls on deaf ears. The vast majority of players here live in democratic societies, so its kind of like a right wing country where the door is kicked down in the middle of the night and another person disappears. The government (administration in this case) remains silent on the disappearances. No wonder people get upset.

This dialogue seems to be headed in the right direction. Yes that was a harsh parallel but I think it needed to be said. In this vein, I think the whole entire process needs to be more transparent, and the mods/admins need to be a little more vocal on these issues. Imagine living in a society where one day your neighbour is next door, but the next day he is gone. What did he do? Where did he go? Am I next? Some people feel that way, so we need the admins/mods to publish something on these infractions just like a newspaper (and most media in a community) publishes the trials and convictions of people that break the laws of society.

[notyou2]

I forgot to mention one thing in my above post. I believe, and may be wrong in this hypothesis, that the majority of the complaints come from a loud vocal very small group. I expect this consumes a large amount of time for the mods and much of it is at best frivolous.

Perhaps rules/punishments should be instituted for complaints that are meritless. Oh....I invented another word

[Mr Changsha]

The current system is (for minor infractions) One warning, One 24 hour ban (that's where I'm at), One 72 hour ban, One 1 week ban, One 1 month ban...and you're gone!

So that's six posts of a minor nature and the poster is permanently banned from the website? I know it didn't used to be like this. WHO came up with this fine system of repression? Of course the point of it is to intimidate members into never writing anything provocative, radical or subversive. At this point I am four single posts away from being permanantly banned from the forums. Not only that, but I genuinely have no idea what Andy's definition of spam or trolling is, so have no possible way of knowing if my posts are going to get me banned or not. I used to think I knew, but boy did I get a shock yesterday. How can I know when the 600 odd previous posts have been fine (many of those far spammier than the one I was banned for) but just this one suddenly broke the rules?

Wouldn't it be FAR more rational for Andy to have pm'd me and say "Hey Mr C. You're normally a fine, upstanding member of the community but I thought that post pushed the boundaries too far?"

Wouldn't that make sense?

Oh, no. It apparently makes FAR MORE SENSE to tick another sodding box and leave me four posts away from being forum banned. I've been writing here for a year with never a problem, yet I should be treated in the same way as, say, a saxitoxin who has just got here? Does CC not make allowances for PREVIOUS CONDUCT when it makes its decisions? Of course not! No, we have an 'escalating disciplinary system' which makes NO allowances for previous conduct at all.

Yet most of you are here tinkering with a patently absurd system. Maybe it should be 7 posts before you get banned forever rather than six? Complete balls. No one should get permanently banned for 6, 7, 8 or even 20 minor infractions (which is a stupidly subjective measure of infraction anyway). They are MINOR INFRACTIONS!!!!

Like many others I completely despair of this place at the moment. We've all spent a good month reasoning with them, pleading with them and even threatening them but it has done no good at all. They don't want us here..at least members like me. To be frank about it they've been making it clear for a while now but we didn't want to comprehend it. Why do you think they have this system?

[PLAYER57832]

It seems like we are back to one basic issue.

The dispute is not so much over the length of penalties, but over what types of things should even recieve a penalty.

Although the title of this thread is "6 month ban", I really think we need to solve all the issues. A patchwork will not only frustrate people, but won't really solve the issues and may make things a lot worse. While I know admin and we players all want to move quickly, it is far better to wait and do this right than to rush and wind up in yet another mire.

[owenshooter]

Wouldn't it be FAR more rational for Andy to have pm'd me and say "Hey Mr C. You're normally a fine, upstanding member of the community but I thought that post pushed the boundaries too far?"

oh, you mean like Twill used to do? say what you want about the big twill-do, but he knew how to handle regular members and he knew when people were just being themselves, and when something bigger was brewing. andy has improved in leaps and bounds and has shown his desire to make the forums a better place with rule changes. however, perma-bans for simple posts, the escalating ban scale and unreasonable stance of not resetting a members violations after serving a lengthy ban, need to change. to top it off, now if you rub a mod/admin the wrong way, you are suddenly under the thumb and bad for the site (see Mr C, above). and guess what? if you get a bogus ban, like timminz and Mr C just did, that goes on your permanent record!!! a few posts from perma-ban, welcome to my existence. i truly miss twill, and i hope this thread emerges as another positive step by andy to make the forum community a better place...-0

[Mr Changsha]

Wouldn't it be FAR more rational for Andy to have pm'd me and say "Hey Mr C. You're normally a fine, upstanding member of the community but I thought that post pushed the boundaries too far?"

oh, you mean like Twill used to do? say what you want about the big twill-do, but he knew how to handle regular members and he knew when people were just being themselves, and when something bigger was brewing. andy has improved in leaps and bounds and has shown his desire to make the forums a better place with rule changes. however, perma-bans for simple posts, the escalating ban scale and unreasonable stance of not resetting a members violations after serving a lengthy ban, need to change. i truly miss twill, and i hope this thread emerges as another positive step by andy to make the forum community a better place...-0

Andy??? Oh you mean the chap who just sent me on my merry way to permanent ban because of one post; that managed to troll and spam and make at least fifteen people cry all at the same time?

That Andy?

Yeah, he's a peach that one.

[owenshooter]

It seems like we are back to one basic issue.

The dispute is not so much over the length of penalties, but over what types of things should even recieve a penalty.

Although the title of this thread is "6 month ban", I really think we need to solve all the issues. A patchwork will not only frustrate people, but won't really solve the issues and may make things a lot worse. While I know admin and we players all want to move quickly, it is far better to wait and do this right than to rush and wind up in yet another mire.

amen... surely dancing mustard's posting was not as detrimental to the site as a chronic cheat/multi, right? hell, you can break the first rule of CC and buy back in. why can't DM buy back in or just be reinstated for obvious reasons, such as, he didn't do anything harmful to the site? sanitizing the forums by killing off the members that have helped to create the irreverent, off beat, fun and quirky atmosphere is not the solution to anything. if you want to see a sanitized site, i can point you to a Speed site that is choc-full-o CC mod wannabes and suck ups trying desperately to re-create what has been organically created here, and which flows so smoothly...-0

[squishyg]

I hear what you're saying Mr. C. In my proposal, alleged trolling/flaming/baiting would never earn more than a one month ban. I see this as a tremendous first step in reorganizing how punishments are doled out considering the way people are punished currently. My hope is that we can reach a compromise with the mods & admins that at the very least will prevent substantial bans for minor forum abuses.

[PLAYER57832]

What the hell is with people wanting more level of punishment? Major and minor is fine for christs sake. Do we really want to end up with something more complicated? Would a "Major, moderately major, moderate, moderately minor, minor" really improve things? Two scales is fine and the only real problem is the perma-ban for the minor offenses.

Although someone did suggest more levels, the main discussion right now is over what constitutes a minor versus major infraction.

If a "level" is added, I believe it would be just one (and that is just a possibility). Basically, most of us feel there is a BIG difference between someone who bumps old threads a bit too often or posts somewhat spurious threads and someone who cheats, threatens other players.

[owenshooter]

So that's six posts of a minor nature and the poster is permanently banned from the website? I know it didn't used to be like this. WHO came up with this fine system of repression?

well, it was agreed upon in the BIGOTRY GUIDELINES thread... however, no mention of this becoming a blanket policy for all infractions was ever mentioned. it is absolute garbage, and a bit sneaky. nowhere within the bigotry debate was it ever stated that whatever was agreed upon to deal with bigotry, would be the new agreement for ALL infractions.-0

[Artimis]

I hear what you're saying Mr. C. In my proposal, alleged trolling/flaming/baiting would never earn more than a one month ban. I see this as a tremendous first step in reorganizing how punishments are doled out considering the way people are punished currently. My hope is that we can reach a compromise with the mods & admins that at the very least will prevent substantial bans for minor forum abuses.

That's pretty much what needs to come out of this suggestion:
The elimination of the PERMANENT VACATION as a punishment for minor infractions.

It'll prevent the Permanent Vacation sanction being used as frivolously as some members use the foe list, "I'm in a foul and/or impatient mood today, so off you go....."

For those who would say that the Permanent Vacation sanction should play a part in the disciplinary process. You might as well say that a petty thief should should have his head chopped off after you've already chopped both his hands off for previous thefts(after all they've run out of hands, serves them right, surely? )

[AndyDufresne]

If you'd like to discuss the merits or demerits of myself, please do so in another topic or in a PM to myself. I'd like to keep this suggestion topic focused on solutions.


--Andy

[notyou2]

So please respond to what others and I have wrote since your last response.

[Artimis]

If you'd like to discuss the merits or demerits of myself, please do so in another topic or in a PM to myself. I'd like to keep this suggestion topic focused on solutions.


--Andy

With that in mind, does Team CC have any opinions that they'd like to share with us at this time?

[jpcloet]

I'm of the opinion that this is likely ready for a poll based on the 4 options we have been discussing of late. Time for some action.