Some thoughts for non-believers

[Japs]

Air is real, for thousands of years we couldnt test it but everyone still believed it was there, it let them live.

[Burrito]

Air is real, for thousands of years we couldnt test it but everyone still believed it was there, it let them live.

Right, but we could see its effects. You justify your fantasies by the existence of the universe, as well as the Bible (which was written by men, translated many times over, and edited to fit people's current needs. (Emperor Constantine comes to mind)

[Juan_Bottom]

and edited to fit people's current needs. (Emperor Constantine comes to mind)

And the Third Reich. Though that's a side point...

[Japs]

Juan Hitler was no where near powerful enought to change the Bible for the rest of the world.

Air is real, for thousands of years we couldnt test it but everyone still believed it was there, it let them live.

Right, but we could see its effects. You justify your fantasies by the existence of the universe, as well as the Bible (which was written by men, translated many times over, and edited to fit people's current needs. (Emperor Constantine comes to mind)

We can see God's effects. If you study the Human body you see that its really an incredible thing made up of so many complex parts, how could this be the product of the Big Bang? To that you will say that evolution has created the marvel we call the body but evolution had to begin somewhere so? Your theory of evolution was written by men and has been revised many times over as well and it changes to meet peoples current wonders. God's Word isnt editted to fit peoples needs everything is already all in there.


*edit*
I must continue the discussion later, getting tired here.

[Simon Viavant]

So your argument is "We don't know what happened so my version must be true, because you have no definite explanation"

Ok

[joecoolfrog]

Juan Hitler was no where near powerful enought to change the Bible for the rest of the world.

Air is real, for thousands of years we couldnt test it but everyone still believed it was there, it let them live.

Right, but we could see its effects. You justify your fantasies by the existence of the universe, as well as the Bible (which was written by men, translated many times over, and edited to fit people's current needs. (Emperor Constantine comes to mind)

We can see God's effects. If you study the Human body you see that its really an incredible thing made up of so many complex parts, how could this be the product of the Big Bang? To that you will say that evolution has created the marvel we call the body but evolution had to begin somewhere so? Your theory of evolution was written by men and has been revised many times over as well and it changes to meet peoples current wonders. God's Word isnt editted to fit peoples needs everything is already all in there.


*edit*
I must continue the discussion later, getting tired here.

Yes the human body is incredible but that is no evidence of supernatural creation.
Yes the Bible is claimed to be partly God's word but again where is the evidence.
Believe what you will my friend but please stop presenting faith as fact.

[neanderpaul14]

Juan Hitler was no where near powerful enought to change the Bible for the rest of the world.

Actually his name is Juan_Bottom, not Juan Hitler, and I don't think Juan changed the bible no matter what you call him.

[Xero-88]

just found this graph, though it was interesting+relevent to this thread, so:


i understand that IQ is not a definite way of representing intelligence, but it is the closest thing we have.
anyways, the more intelligent someone is, the more they are able to think independently, and more likely to see how religion is just a bunch of theories that cannot be proven, and therefore why believe them?

im not saying the science theories are correct, because they too cannot be proven, and there will always be questions no matter how much we find out. but so far science has the most evidence, so i am inclined to believe science over faith.

[2dimes]

My spelling has proven I'm one of the least intelligent people on the internet I'm told.

[Burrito]

Juan Hitler was no where near powerful enought to change the Bible for the rest of the world.

Air is real, for thousands of years we couldnt test it but everyone still believed it was there, it let them live.

Right, but we could see its effects. You justify your fantasies by the existence of the universe, as well as the Bible (which was written by men, translated many times over, and edited to fit people's current needs. (Emperor Constantine comes to mind)

We can see God's effects. If you study the Human body you see that its really an incredible thing made up of so many complex parts, how could this be the product of the Big Bang? To that you will say that evolution has created the marvel we call the body but evolution had to begin somewhere so? Your theory of evolution was written by men and has been revised many times over as well and it changes to meet peoples current wonders. God's Word isnt editted to fit peoples needs everything is already all in there.


*edit*
I must continue the discussion later, getting tired here.

Fine, you are right. Science can't explain the beginnings of the universe. Yet. But that doesn't mean that simply because we have yet to come up with a provable theory on it, then it must be mystical/magical/divine in nature. Yes, the human body is amazing, but its existence doesn't prove we are a divine creation. Yes, evolution is a theory, and it is not undeniably proven, but there is lots of science to support. We have seen evolution in action in other species.

The original Bible has been edited to fit peoples needs. The greatest example of this was Emperor Constantine. He changed the bible to best fit the changing political scene as he turned the Byzantine Empire from Orthodox Christianity to Catholicism, removing entire books. The descendant of this action is the Bible you have probably read, the King James version, which is not the original text of the (man-written) bible.

[john9blue]

That looks totally legit.

At least I (and most people here) can say that my IQ is off the chart! That's a real confidence booster.

[jonesthecurl]

That looks totally legit.

At least I (and most people here) can say that my IQ is off the chart! That's a real confidence booster.

A good point john.

Do we have a chart which goes as far above the mean as this does below? I would be interested.

Also, this graph appears to be based on a sample of 43 people.

Only 5 of whom were above average IQ.

Now, it is well-known that I an atheist, and unAmerican in other ways probably - but i would like bette evidence than this from my side of the argument.

[Mentos-]

That looks totally legit.

At least I (and most people here) can say that my IQ is off the chart! That's a real confidence booster.

A good point john.

Do we have a chart which goes as far above the mean as this does below? I would be interested.

Also, this graph appears to be based on a sample of 43 people.

Only 5 of whom were above average IQ.

Now, it is well-known that I an atheist, and unAmerican in other ways probably - but i would like bette evidence than this from my side of the argument.

each point on that graph is the average of a country, and from what ive read on discussions of this graph, the higher the iq goes the more extreme the beliefs fall towards non-religiousness (if that is a word)
this is assuming its the same graph i have seen, but if not i have another one exactly like it with countries represented

[Xero-88]

each point on that graph is the average of a country, and from what ive read on discussions of this graph, the higher the iq goes the more extreme the beliefs fall towards non-religiousness (if that is a word)
this is assuming its the same graph i have seen, but if not i have another one exactly like it with countries represented

yeah i can confirm this is the IQ average of countries, each dot that is. http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm

[john9blue]

Interesting... although I'm not that concerned because many great thinkers were religious. There are definitely more impressionable types in the lower IQ range who are less likely to question religious dogma.

[jesterhawk]

if you truly are happy with your "gold coin", i have no problem with that. the only thing im saying is that there are many ways to achieve the same level of happiness. and ive found mine.

However, we are really not offering happiness, but eternal life in heaven, which Jesus said was paradise, with God. Happiness just happens to come with the package.

God willing to prevent evil, but not able then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing then he is malevolent
Is he both and, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him God.

Atheists winning since 33 A.D.

This is very interesting and I will put aside the fact that the line about Atheists winning since 33AD acknowledges both that Jesus came and that he must have been God, which is why you are winning because he was crucified. If that is not what is meant, then perhaps it should be reworded to be more clear about the intent.

God is able to prevent evil and does frequently. The problem is that to an atheist nothing is ever good enough. If we say God heals, they say that it was the human body. If we say that God performs miracles, they call it magic. If we say God created the world, they say prove it even though they can't prove their own theories (not that they ever will because they will never be able to go back or recreate the event in a lab so it is not possible to prove only to theorize). If we say that God is love, they site instances of people who were not filled with love and say that God should have done something. But if God had done something and it happened to stomp on THEIR freedom to make a choice then they would scream God is unfair. And the list goes on, the simple point is there is nothing that is ever good enough.

Take a step back for a moment, and let me ask this. Suppose you had a child and this child was bad. And I mean really bad. He/she rebelled against everything you said, convinced others of how bad a parent you are, even cursed your name because in the end he/she is really mad at you to the point of hate, envy, jealousy, etc. Would you kill this child? After all the hatred in their mind and dare we say soul will drive them to do terrible things (and we see this all the time). Wouldn't it be better for society if you kill this child? Would you kill him/her and even more would you do it by your own hand? This is serious because the devil, enemy, the embodiment of evil, is a creation, kind of like a son, of God the Father. And if you were in his position, would you kill your child? You can tell me you would, but I know you wouldn't if you would be honest because we have seen this many times over. And yeah, when the devil rebelled against God and turned a third of the angels against him because of his pride, hatred and anger, you expect and even smugly demand that God should have kill this creation, that is like a child of his, by his own hand because you want things to be a bit better for you. Let us add here that while the devil is the great instigator of evil, he is not the one who performs it, we do. And let us now go one step further, suppose your child hit the neighbors child. An act that in your mind is not that serious, but your neighbor is deeply insulted and demands the death of your child because of the suffering of his child. Would you carry out what your neighbor wanted? And yet, you are the neighbor (actually you are closer to God than that, but it will work for illustration) and demanding of God that he destroy one of his creations because you or someone you knew suffered. Never mind that at least some of that suffering came at your own hand because you made choices that did not result the way you wanted but turned sour and bad and caused the suffering. But because of your bad choices God should destroy one of his creations. And if you say yes to this, then were does it stop. Perhaps you are causing me stress and discomfort by replying to my posts, should I have God kill you because I might find you offensive and suffer because of that? Would you find that fair? I think not and yet you expect God to do this.

You see you miss the point about God. God IS love. Not the ooey-gooey type, but real honest and true love. The kind of love that is kind, patience, does not count a wrong suffered, not jealous, not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly, does not seek it's own, is not provoked. The kind of love that bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things and never ever fails. Not your typical love that we see day in and day out that can be fleeting and gone (just look at the divorce rate to see that), but a pure and real love. I dare say that we have come so "FAR" in our evolution of culture and society that we can't even grasp that kind of love. But that is the kind of love that God is which is why he can take you back and forgive you no matter what you have done. This is also the reason that he did not kill the devil because of the fact that God IS love. It is his nature and murder for a wrong suffered is not within real love's character. This is why the devil has been allowed to exits. But let me tell you something. We have power over the devil. And I am not talking about some magic or mysticism. I am talking about authority that has been granted to us through Jesus to tell the devil to get lost and the devil MUST obey. But the problem is that so few people know this and even less understand this fact. This is why the Bible tells us that we can get to a point in Jesus where his love is so great in us that the devil, the evil one, can not even touch us (1 John 5:18). Why do we have this authority and power because God loves us and he loves you. You can deny him, run from him, hate him, call him names and every other thing you can imagine and God will still love you with a deep love that had Jesus agree to go to the cross on your behalf. Jesus was forced or commanded, he freely decided the only way to redeem us and give us access to God in heaven and eternal life with him was to go through the cross.

So god is real, because...

God is real?
I can't argue with that logic.

I will tell you something that shows that God is real. Almost two years ago, I collapsed and was taken to the hospital on a Sunday night. They determined that the prescription drugs my doctor gave me I had a very bad reaction too and both my kidneys failed. Late Sunday night, they told my wife to prepare for my funeral and they even called my personal doctor, who is a friend of mine, and told him that they had one of his patients and he will not last the night. Monday when I was still alive, they told my wife that it was only hours to minutes before I expired. She did not accept that and prayed to God for my healing. Thursday morning, I woke up and my kidneys were returning to normal because God replaced them with new ones. All nine of my board certified doctors came in and told me that it was impossible that I was alive let alone awake. Five days later they released me from the hospital with a perfect and clean bill of health. Again, they told me that I should count my blessings because what happened was impossible. Understand that I had zero kidney functions for four days with no brain activity and now I am as if nothing happened to me. God healed me. You can try and say it was the bodies ability to heal itself, but nine doctors who were examining me said otherwise. And since then, I have had friends who are doctors look at my charts and say that only God could have done this because there is no way for it to happen by itself. So, I know a miracle happened to me and so do many professional board certified doctors.

Is God real? Most definitely.



Love in Christ,
JH

[mpjh]

Interesting... although I'm not that concerned because many great thinkers were religious. There are definitely more impressionable types in the lower IQ range who are less likely to question religious dogma.

Where is your evidence of that. My experience has been that IQ is only a social construct, and that "higher" IQ people are simply closer to the elite of the mainstream and more likely to agree with the prevailing ideology; while lower "IQ" people are more likely the oppressed in that society and more likely to challange the prevailing ideology. So I see quite the opposite of what you claim.

[KristenAmazon]

Lecrae (Hip-hop artist) has a few great thoughts for non-believers in a song of his ironically entitled: "Truth".


"Man, It's just some folks say, "All truth is relative, it just depends on what you believe." You know, "hey man, ain't no way to know for sure who God is or what's really true." But that means you believe your own statement; that there's no way to know what's really true. You're saying that that statement is true. You're killing yourself. If what's true for you is true for you and what's true for me is true for me, what if my truth says your's is a lie? Is it still true? Come on man! "



"See, there's this thing called "Secular Humanism", it says man is the source of all meaning and all purposing. You know what I'm saying? We're just the result of a big cosmic explosion. We don't really have a purpose or meaning, so we just come up with our own purpose. We're the source of our meaning and our purpose. How can a man, which is the product of chance, a finite being be the source of purpose and meaning? You can't! You're created with purpose man! Get with The Creator yo! "



You look man, "Some people say that God ain't real 'cause they don't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is real then He should stop all this evil, 'cause He's all-powerful right? What is evil though man? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally bad or wrong. It's murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? I mean, where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil, we gotta be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated right? Because we think evil stuff. If that's true, we should be eliminated! But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin! Christ died for all evilness! Repent, turn to Jesus man!"


Is there a God? I do believe so. The problem is that I can't stop there. I can't say: "there may or may not be a God, it doesn't affect me if there is some higher power out there" because if I acknowledge that there is a God, and don't live my life accordingly, then I am saying that this God is not worthy of my obedience or devotion, and if I say that, then I'm actually attacking the very God I would claim to be neutral about. Is there a God out there? Yes, but if he is God, does he not have the right to expect of me to be an obedient creation? Should I not have the desire to know him more?

BTW: God Bless JH

[MeDeFe]

jesterhawk, can you point me to the part in the bible where the devil's rebellion is described in as great detail as in your post? I've never been able to find it.


Regarding your illness, I'm glad you recovered from it, but doctors aren't infallible, so yes, you "just" got really really lucky.

[jonesthecurl]

Lecrae (Hip-hop artist) has a few great thoughts for non-believers in a song of his ironically entitled: "Truth".


"Man, It's just some folks say, "All truth is relative, it just depends on what you believe." You know, "hey man, ain't no way to know for sure who God is or what's really true." But that means you believe your own statement; that there's no way to know what's really true. You're saying that that statement is true. You're killing yourself. If what's true for you is true for you and what's true for me is true for me, what if my truth says your's is a lie? Is it still true? Come on man! "



"See, there's this thing called "Secular Humanism", it says man is the source of all meaning and all purposing. You know what I'm saying? We're just the result of a big cosmic explosion. We don't really have a purpose or meaning, so we just come up with our own purpose. We're the source of our meaning and our purpose. How can a man, which is the product of chance, a finite being be the source of purpose and meaning? You can't! You're created with purpose man! Get with The Creator yo! "



You look man, "Some people say that God ain't real 'cause they don't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is real then He should stop all this evil, 'cause He's all-powerful right? What is evil though man? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally bad or wrong. It's murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? I mean, where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil, we gotta be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated right? Because we think evil stuff. If that's true, we should be eliminated! But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin! Christ died for all evilness! Repent, turn to Jesus man!"


Is there a God? I do believe so. The problem is that I can't stop there. I can't say: "there may or may not be a God, it doesn't affect me if there is some higher power out there" because if I acknowledge that there is a God, and don't live my life accordingly, then I am saying that this God is not worthy of my obedience or devotion, and if I say that, then I'm actually attacking the very God I would claim to be neutral about. Is there a God out there? Yes, but if he is God, does he not have the right to expect of me to be an obedient creation? Should I not have the desire to know him more?

BTW: God Bless JH

"Get with the Creator, Yo!" OK, now I'm convinced...

[joecoolfrog]

JH
Im glad you are alive, I am glad that I survived a survived after a situation that was similar but involved my heart. My wife was also told to expert the worst, but did not pray, the doctors were also surprised but did not cite God or miracles, in truth I doubt yours did either . Was it an act of some supernatural being or simply random chance, does it really matter because it boils down to luck anyway ,after all millions of good people with strong faith die before they should.
You choose to find comfort in believing that you were 'saved' , others seek different emotional crutches or , like myself , are simply pleased that fate or fortune favoured them and get on with the only life we are certain of.
Will more future lives be saved by relying on the whims of an omnipotent being ( because we have seen there is no apparent method involved ) or by striving to improve medical care through greater understanding of how the body works. I will venture that science is a better future investment than pure chance, many in the religious world of course disagree , some indeed oppose new thought and ideas with vigour, lets hope that they and their children stay lucky !

[jonesthecurl]

Did God deliberately make "the Devil" evil?

[PLAYER57832]

and edited to fit people's current needs. (Emperor Constantine comes to mind)

And the Third Reich. Though that's a side point...

Hitler promoted atheism, not religion. He used the Lutheran church initially, but it was just a tool for him.

[PLAYER57832]

Did God deliberately make "the Devil" evil?

God made all, knowing what would happen. It is the Christian belief that what God made, despite all evil, is better than what would have happened else. We have free will. Free will means the ability to truly choose and that some will choose evil. It also means that others will choose to fight and respond to that evil. However, the real truth is that none of us really knows or understands God fully. Cop-out it may be, but it is belief, not something that can be proven.

[PLAYER57832]

Interesting... although I'm not that concerned because many great thinkers were religious. There are definitely more impressionable types in the lower IQ range who are less likely to question religious dogma.

Where is your evidence of that. My experience has been that IQ is only a social construct, and that "higher" IQ people are simply closer to the elite of the mainstream and more likely to agree with the prevailing ideology; while lower "IQ" people are more likely the oppressed in that society and more likely to challange the prevailing ideology. So I see quite the opposite of what you claim.

This is the primary reason why white males historically are shown to have higher IQs than others.