an interesting perspective on racism

[a.sub]

This isnt my own theory, but i will say that i think it has its merits

The theory is simple, if i walk up to a black person and say "Hi Nigger" and they get angry they are wrong.
why? well it seems a bit illogical but set aside that bias for a moment and listen. Nigger is a word, thus is has meaning. Its meaning is, a Person with darker skin, or youc an be mroe specific and define it as an african person. That is what it means, thats what is describes, no one can deny that describing an african as a nigger is in correct. Now to get mad at the word nigger means you are also giving it negative meaning. Nigger = african, Nigger = bad, thus african = bad. Now before you break out CAPS LOCK realize that they theory isnt saying that by getting angry at the use of nigger you are declaring a hatred of black people, but rather by reacting so negatively to the word you are giving it negative connotations on your own, its YOUR fault that its an insult. When someone had referred to me as "Curry Man" for my indian background i responded as if they were just calling me by my actual description, so i consciously didnt register it as an insult, and all of sudden that word wasnt an insult. Similarly if people reacted to "Nigger" as they did to "Person of African Decent" then its no longer an insult, it loses all its "insulting value."

One last thing, i would like to point out that the word Nigger and the words Border-Jumper as different.
Nigger means "person of african decent" so it would be like calling all black people person of african decent, its a fact, all african people have an african ancestor (GEEWHIZ who woulda thought?!)
BUT
Border-Jumper means an illegal immigrant, so it would be like calling all mexicans illegal immigrants, its a racist stereotype not a fact making it racist unlike nigger in the above theory.

[hecter]

Isn't calling a black guy a nigger more like calling them a slave then simply black? Kind of like monkey's.

Though I do agree with the theory in general. That is, an insult is only an insult if you let be one.

[jonesthecurl]

This isnt my own theory, but i will say that i think it has its merits

The theory is simple, if i walk up to a black person and say "Hi Nigger" and they get angry they are wrong.
why? well it seems a bit illogical but set aside that bias for a moment and listen. Nigger is a word, thus is has meaning. Its meaning is, a Person with darker skin, or youc an be mroe specific and define it as an african person. That is what it means, thats what is describes, no one can deny that describing an african as a nigger is in correct. Now to get mad at the word nigger means you are also giving it negative meaning. Nigger = african, Nigger = bad, thus african = bad. Now before you break out CAPS LOCK realize that they theory isnt saying that by getting angry at the use of nigger you are declaring a hatred of black people, but rather by reacting so negatively to the word you are giving it negative connotations on your own, its YOUR fault that its an insult. When someone had referred to me as "Curry Man" for my indian background i responded as if they were just calling me by my actual description, so i consciously didnt register it as an insult, and all of sudden that word wasnt an insult. Similarly if people reacted to "Nigger" as they did to "Person of African Decent" then its no longer an insult, it loses all its "insulting value."

One last thing, i would like to point out that the word Nigger and the words Border-Jumper as different.
Nigger means "person of african decent" so it would be like calling all black people person of african decent, its a fact, all african people have an african ancestor (GEEWHIZ who woulda thought?!)
BUT
Border-Jumper means an illegal immigrant, so it would be like calling all mexicans illegal immigrants, its a racist stereotype not a fact making it racist unlike nigger in the above theory.

yes, but it's the intent that makes the word insulting.
It has been generally agreed that the negative associations that go with the n-word are such that it cannot today be used (unless by a black person) except as an insult, or at the very least without indicating that you are insensitive to the feelings of the persons described.
Lenny Bruce was of the opinion that everybody shoudl say it (and wop, kike, any other racial or cultural insult that you wanted) until it lost meaning. Worthy as the monologue in which he suggested this was, I don't think it will work.
The fact is that today if someone describes a black person as the n-word, or calls them it to their face, the chances of it not being meant as a demeaning insult are vanishingly small.
Just as any white brit who calls people from the Indian sub-continent "Paki's" (quite apart from showing thier ignorance of the possibility that the people might not be from Pakistan) is fairly obviously displaying prejudice. It's like calling a Welsh person a sheep-shagger rather than a Taffy.

[Symmetry]

This isnt my own theory, but i will say that i think it has its merits

The theory is simple, if i walk up to a black person and say "Hi Nigger" and they get angry they are wrong.
why? well it seems a bit illogical but set aside that bias for a moment and listen. Nigger is a word, thus is has meaning. Its meaning is, a Person with darker skin, or youc an be mroe specific and define it as an african person. That is what it means, thats what is describes, no one can deny that describing an african as a nigger is in correct. Now to get mad at the word nigger means you are also giving it negative meaning. Nigger = african, Nigger = bad, thus african = bad. Now before you break out CAPS LOCK realize that they theory isnt saying that by getting angry at the use of nigger you are declaring a hatred of black people, but rather by reacting so negatively to the word you are giving it negative connotations on your own, its YOUR fault that its an insult. When someone had referred to me as "Curry Man" for my indian background i responded as if they were just calling me by my actual description, so i consciously didnt register it as an insult, and all of sudden that word wasnt an insult. Similarly if people reacted to "Nigger" as they did to "Person of African Decent" then its no longer an insult, it loses all its "insulting value."

One last thing, i would like to point out that the word Nigger and the words Border-Jumper as different.
Nigger means "person of african decent" so it would be like calling all black people person of african decent, its a fact, all african people have an african ancestor (GEEWHIZ who woulda thought?!)
BUT
Border-Jumper means an illegal immigrant, so it would be like calling all mexicans illegal immigrants, its a racist stereotype not a fact making it racist unlike nigger in the above theory.

Dude- I'm going to take the bait. The fact that you know that this is a deeply racist word and want to redeem it count against you in my book- it looks like you're trolling. The fact that you feel the need to use the word in almost every sentence says the same. You really enjoy having the opportunity to say that and make it seem reasonable, right?

I'm not going to engage with your arguments, because you have none. Having an ancestor from Africa will never equal the bigotry you argue for.

Easily the most offensive post I've seen so far on CC.

[spurgistan]

While like Symmetry I'm hesitant to engage this thread, the n-word is representative of one of the great moral hypocrisies that the USA (alongside others, of course) has engaged in. You should feel as much shame as anybody else by repeating it so gleefully here. Shame.

[a.sub]

proof of theory

Isn't calling a black guy a nigger more like calling them a slave then simply black? Kind of like monkey's.

Though I do agree with the theory in general. That is, an insult is only an insult if you let be one.

disagreed with my statement and even said that nigger is an insult but took my post as a neutral one. i look neutral but off key.

While like Symmetry I'm hesitant to engage this thread, the n-word is representative of one of the great moral hypocrisies that the USA (alongside others, of course) has engaged in. You should feel as much shame as anybody else by repeating it so gleefully here. Shame.

reacted on a completely personal level and took the post as an insult. I look like a horrible person.



the thread, like a word, is only what i make of it





Now as for the points made in the thread. Yeah actually i do see the point that nigger has connection with the jim crow south and slavery and thus was a poor choice. My apologies because that was a bad example. Maybe if i had chosen something else with less or no implications the thread would be a bit more representative.

As for the careless use of it with the intent of removing its meaning, as jones pointed out i half and half. I do see his point that how its used makes a HUGE difference, i mean it takes two right? but at the same time i would like to point out that (unless im mistaken) the donkey as a representative for the democrats was used initially as an insult when one of the democratic presidents was called a jack ass. Similar concept except words like nigger would take a LOT more effort because i do admit that its a lot more emotionally tainted word than jack ass.


[spoiler=Now for the less intelligent points made in the thread]

Dude- I'm going to take the bait.
this is not a bait, its called a discussion. If you disagree please explain how i baited anyone?

The fact that you know that this is a deeply racist word and want to redeem it count against you in my book
OH GOD NO!!! what will i ever do without your approval?!

it looks like you're trolling.
intellectual discussion mi amigo

The fact that you feel the need to use the word in almost every sentence says the same. You really enjoy having the opportunity to say that and make it seem reasonable, right?
what else was i supposed to do? say "if someone was called a <insert racist word that i wont repeat because i feel like being hypocritical to the entire theory that im writing in the first place> then ..."

I'm not going to engage with your arguments, because you have none. Having an ancestor from Africa will never equal the bigotry you argue for.
1) please show me the bigtory? my post was about REDUCING the hatred in a word, and im evil? bloody brilliant
2) i have no arguments eh? not even the example provided? or the logical steps? or the personal anecdote? or anything else?
3) ok you got me ill admit it im actually a racist psychopath that believes in white superiority despite being a minority myself

Easily the most offensive post I've seen so far on CC.
are you new?

[/spoiler]

[Simon Viavant]

I think Symmetry was way overreacting and was a bit closedminded on this, but I still think the intent is clearly to insult when people say that. It might work if everyone said it, but it's still have negative connotations. I agree that the person receiving the word can make it into an insult, but the person giving it also can say it as that in no uncertain terms.

[porkenbeans]

Sub,
Who in the hell ever told you that it simply meant, a black person ?
It is a word that was used to refer to one's slave.
A slave was considered property, much like a dog or horse, and were bought and sold like any other farm animal. Can you imagine the utter denigration of being considered, and treated as an animal. I am not a black person, and I can only imagine what deep seated resentment they must feel when a white person today uses that word. I imagine that if I were them, I would want to rip off the offender's head, and piss down his neck.

[demonfork]

Sub,
Who in the hell ever told you that it simply meant, a black person ?
It is a word that was used to refer to one's slave.
A slave was considered property, much like a dog or horse, and were bought and sold like any other farm animal. Can you imagine the utter denigration of being considered an animal. I am not a black person, and I can only imagine what deep seated resentment they must feel when a white person today uses that word. I imagine that if I were them, I would want to rip off the offending head and piss down its neck.

I doubt anyone told him, its common knowledge that anyone can obtain by looking the word up in the dictionary.

ni-gger
–noun
1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.
a. a black person.
b. a member of any dark-skinned people.

[a.sub]

Sub,
Who in the hell ever told you that it simply meant, a black person ?
It is a word that was used to refer to one's slave.
A slave was considered property, much like a dog or horse, and were bought and sold like any other farm animal. Can you imagine the utter denigration of being considered an animal. I am not a black person, and I can only imagine what deep seated resentment they must feel when a white person today uses that word. I imagine that if I were them, I would want to rip off the offending head and piss down its neck.

I doubt anyone told him, its common knowledge that anyone can obtain by looking the word up in the dictionary.

ni-gger
–noun
1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.
a. a black person.
b. a member of any dark-skinned people.

not to mention that ive heard african americans refer to other african americans that way
im not saying that they are right, but that usage shows that it doesnt have to mean slave. yes it can, but only if we let it.

[jonesthecurl]

O.K. let's take a similar example.

If I call a man who likes sex with other men "homosexual" that is a description.
If I call him "gay" that is the currently acceptable method of describing his sexual preference. If I use the word "gay" in an insulting way, it might be offensive.
If I call him "a faggot" it's an insult, even though that "means" the same as the other two terms. There is no way that the word "faggot" is used by a heterosexual guy without inttentional insult and belittling.
Using the n-word is like calling a man who fancies other men a "faggot".

Clear yet?

{Note, I was going to say "clear yet, you Paki?" and realised that might not be taken as irony}.

Incidentally, I have never heard "Curry Man" used as a racial insult, and the last time I was called it I took it as a compliment.

[pimpdave]

I don't understand why anyone would want to use an epithet if they ever hoped to make friends with people from other continents, ethnic origin, or genetic background.

Furthermore, if this is to be a free and pluralistic society, epithets simply cannot be used in the workplace, classroom, halls of government, or in public places without serving to exclude some part of our society. I know, I know, free speech and all -- there will always be idiots who need to spout off -- but I'm talking about a personal code of conduct, not a hypothetical law banning them.

What it comes down to is: why think of the world in terms of epithets? There are so many words out there to use, it makes little sense to choose the most offensive ones.

It may be impossible and even foolish to try to not see race when looking around, but it is both possible and quite wise to not see epithets.

[2dimes]

I think it's true that the word has gained power now that it's become so poison. Problem with the movement to take the power away is that it only gained momentum in the american rapper realm while someone (most likely a racist in my opinion) pulled a fast one with the politically correct thing to give the word more power again in my opinion.

I do like the fact that to my knowlege my kids don't even know the word at 6 and 3. "Eenie meenie miney moe catch a tiger..." is in use, while when I was a kid the other word was normal in there.

Racism sucks and I wish we could just do something to make the negative aspect of the word go away. Can't see it though, there's to much hate going around.

[Fruitcake]

I cannot believe this thread even exists. But then I am hardly surprised the cc admin are allowing it, they are showing some highly distrubing traits of being quite racist themselves, and when I say admin I mean andy and the idiot optimus prime.

[AlgyTaylor]

I cannot believe this thread even exists. But then I am hardly surprised the cc admin are allowing it, they are showing some highly distrubing traits of being quite racist themselves, and when I say admin I mean andy and the idiot optimus prime.

Don't be so melodramatic

"Nigger" - just use a bit of common sense innit. The word is seen as insulting by a large proportion of people (regardless of skin colour). If you know there's a reasonable chance of it causing offence - don't use it.

Whether it should be considering insulting has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[2dimes]

It doesn't matter how true or obvious something is where a person is different. The fact that you walk up to them and make an issue so any other person can hear makes you a jerk.

If a person has an injury or deformed leg and you come up and say, "Hey you have a gimped leg." It doesn't matter if it's true. It's not their fault for being hurt and getting angry. Get real. There is a gigantic difference between something you say to a person you know well and a stranger also.

Lock and sticky the thread so we can make fun of the OP.

[Balsiefen]

This may be true for the word Negro but Nigger was specifically developed as a racist and derogatory term.

[khazalid]

i think you have confused it with negro

edit: what balsie said

[MeDeFe]

a.sub, one big flaw in your theory is that it has an overly simplistic view of language. There are words that have a meaning. End of theory.

You disregard the importance of connotations and the constructivist and relative nature of language, words do not magically derive their meaning out of nowhere, they only mean something because humans agree on what the word means, and meaning can be much more than 'tree' denoting those wood thingies that grow out of the ground and have green stuff on top. The word 'nigger' that you want to present as essentially neutral is an example of this. Even if the overly simplistic "meaning" that your theory allows for is "person with dark skin" you need to take into account how the word is used (this includes at least the context of when it is commonly understood as appropriate to use the word and the relationship between the speaker and the addressee) in order to fully understand the meaning. I know you say not to care about those things, but then you destroy the very essence of language. "The N-word" can indeed have a different meaning depending on whether a person with fair skin uses it or if a person with dark skin uses it and at who it is directed, personally I think this has as much to do with social groups as with "ethnicity" (now there's a social contruct we need to get rid off), but the two have usually gone hand in hand so the distinction might as well be moot.

Your simplistic theory of language almost entirely disregards the speakers, instead you would treat language as an abstract and fixed construct that is imposed on people rather than as an entity that only exists through us. This is why your prescriptive approach fails. Maybe in 200 years there will have been a shift, people's attitudes will have changed and they won't care that 'nigger' was once used as an insult and will be using it in everyday language. But you cannot force that to happen, it will have to come about gradually.

[PLAYER57832]

Though I do agree with the theory in general. That is, an insult is only an insult if you let be one.

There is some truth in this, but the thing about word is that definitions are not assigned just by the speakers. If so, no one would communicate at all. "Nigger" can be ignored, sure, but to claim it simply means "a person of African descent" is just wrong. It has been made to be an insult, to mean that being black is bad.

A closer analogy would be when boys call each other "girl" or "woman". I can remember them saying it to me more than once. I did laugh and say "thank you". After all, why should I be ashamed of being female? lol

[jonesthecurl]

Why don't we just call them"darkies"? I'm sure that wouldn't be insulting at all. After all, their skin is darker than mine.

[pimpdave]

Why don't we just call them"darkies"? I'm sure that wouldn't be insulting at all. After all, their skin is darker than mine.

afkjhae;fisdojahladslfkadsjf

SATIRE OVERLOAD.

I'm cramping up from laughing so much. You nailed it Jones. Just completely nailed it (and the best part is, I'm certain this is going to go over the heads of those at whom it's aimed).

[pimpdave]

and when I say admin I mean andy and the idiot optimus prime.

Isn't Mormonism founded upon deeply held racist beliefs?

[porkenbeans]

Sub,
Who in the hell ever told you that it simply meant, a black person ?
It is a word that was used to refer to one's slave.
A slave was considered property, much like a dog or horse, and were bought and sold like any other farm animal. Can you imagine the utter denigration of being considered an animal. I am not a black person, and I can only imagine what deep seated resentment they must feel when a white person today uses that word. I imagine that if I were them, I would want to rip off the offending head and piss down its neck.

I doubt anyone told him, its common knowledge that anyone can obtain by looking the word up in the dictionary.

ni-gger
–noun
1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.
a. a black person.
b. a member of any dark-skinned people.

Yes, and if you know how to properly use the dictionary, you would know that the MOST common use of the word in question, is placed at the TOP of the list of definitions for said word.
1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.
Any questions ?

[oVo]

This isnt my own theory, but i will say that i think it has its merits

The theory is simple, if i walk up to a black person and say "Hi Nigger" and they get angry they are wrong.
why? well it seems a bit illogical but set aside that bias for a moment and listen. Nigger is a word, thus is has meaning. Its meaning is, a Person with darker skin, or youc an be mroe specific and define it as an african person. That is what it means, thats what is describes, no one can deny that describing an african as a nigger is in correct. Now to get mad at the word nigger means you are also giving it negative meaning. Nigger = african, Nigger = bad, thus african = bad. Now before you break out CAPS LOCK realize that they theory isnt saying that by getting angry at the use of nigger you are declaring a hatred of black people, but rather by reacting so negatively to the word you are giving it negative connotations on your own, its YOUR fault that its an insult. When someone had referred to me as "Curry Man" for my indian background i responded as if they were just calling me by my actual description, so i consciously didnt register it as an insult, and all of sudden that word wasnt an insult. Similarly if people reacted to "Nigger" as they did to "Person of African Decent" then its no longer an insult, it loses all its "insulting value."

One last thing, i would like to point out that the word Nigger and the words Border-Jumper as different.
Nigger means "person of african decent" so it would be like calling all black people person of african decent, its a fact, all african people have an african ancestor (GEEWHIZ who woulda thought?!)
BUT
Border-Jumper means an illegal immigrant, so it would be like calling all mexicans illegal immigrants, its a racist stereotype not a fact making it racist unlike nigger in the above theory.

Your definition of the word is wrong and negates this ignorant theory completely. Guess it's a good thing this is someone else's concept or you might be thought of as a really stupid racist.