Football (real)

[Lord and Master]

You can't possibly think that anyone will take you or your argument seriously when you claim that teams like Tre Fiori, Mogren Budva, Sant Julià or Hibernians FC are a better representation of "the best" than teams like Liverpool, Real Madrid, Juventus or Olympique Marseille.

It wasn't an argument, merely an opinion and yes, I do think that a team that won it's domestic league is a better representative of "the best" than teams that are perennial runners-up...
How people expect the smaller leagues to improve when the majority of the CL cash is hoovered up by England, Spain, Italy etc is beyond me.

[sam_levi_11]

These competitions were NOT designed to keep everyone happy, rather they're all about celebrating the best teams and giving the rest something to strive towards. In fact I'd like to see a return to these values in the Champions League, as having teams who essentially "failed" in their own domestic leagues hailed as Champions is a bit silly, and devalues the competition somewhat.

You can't possibly think that anyone will take you or your argument seriously when you claim that teams like Tre Fiori, Mogren Budva, Sant Julià or Hibernians FC are a better representation of "the best" than teams like Liverpool, Real Madrid, Juventus or Olympique Marseille.[/quote]
Agreed, having only champions of the leagues in it is a moronic discusion.

Lets see... So you would want Barcelona, Man Utd, Bordeaux, Wolfsburg, inter milan, AZ Alkmaar, Standard Liege, FC Zurich, Debreceni, Maccabi Haifa, CSKA Moskva, Rapid Wien, Besiktas, Rubin Kazan, SK Tirana, F91 Dudelange(Luxembourg), Dinamo Zagreb(Croatia), FC Inter Turku(finland), Stabeak, Dinamo Kyiv, Wisla Krakow, NK Maribor, SK Slovan Bratislava, and thats before we get to the teams from estonia, lithuania and so on...

at least it would mean the europa cup would have a purpose, as the best cup in the world. Real Madrid, Sevilla, Atletico Madrid, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Juventus, AC Milan, Fiorentina, Marseille, Olympic Lyonais, Bayern Munich, Stuttgart, Hertha Berlin, Ajax, Twente and more

[Lord and Master]

By having essentially the same teams every year there's no room for growth regarding the smaller, less well heard of teams. It's all very well listing all those teams, so you can sit back and snigger to yourself at how crap most of them are, but when those leagues/countries are consistently receiving significantly less CL money, year after year, than the more established ones, they are then denied the chance to grow.
Doesn't it strike you as ridiculous that teams (such as your own beloved Arsenal, Sam n Thez) who finish a meagre 4th in their league, will probably get more money than teams (refer to Sam's exhaustive list) who won their respective championships? Maybe you don't agree, and that's absolutely fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but in my view it was better when it was the European Cup, when only the actual, real champions competed.
It's all a bit too weighted for the status quo at the moment, the established teams are never gonna be challenged by the smaller teams and it's nothing to do with football reasons, it all boils down to the money, which I think is a shame. That's all.

[Thezzaruz]

It wasn't an argument, merely an opinion and yes, I do think that a team that won it's domestic league is a better representative of "the best" than teams that are perennial runners-up...

So for international football the quality of the team is a good measure of who's best but for club football you go for fairness??? How does that make sense?

By having essentially the same teams every year there's no room for growth regarding the smaller, less well heard of teams. It's all very well listing all those teams, so you can sit back and snigger to yourself at how crap most of them are, but when those leagues/countries are consistently receiving significantly less CL money, year after year, than the more established ones, they are then denied the chance to grow.

Firstly, that's just not true. Romanian and Ukrainian teams have shown that it's very possible to improve and get further in the competitions and thus be rewarded with a higher ranking and getting more allocations to your country (and more money).

Secondly, you seem to expect big and constant changes and that just isn't realistic. The best club in the world this year will probably be the best one (or thereabouts) next year too and that isn't a bad or unnatural thing tbh. Raising the quality of a club or league is a long term multi year project if you want to do it sustainably and for some it still isn't doable due to non-footballing restraints (a small population in a poor country will never be able to sustain the same level of club/league competitiveness as a large population in a rich country can). IMO the attitude of "we deserve" being a "big" team and the demands for instant success at any cost it brings is the major thing that's wrong with football today. It is that "we are entitled to" feeling that has driven the transfer market (and player salaries) to insane new heights. [/rant]

Doesn't it strike you as ridiculous that teams (such as your own beloved Arsenal, Sam n Thez) who finish a meagre 4th in their league, will probably get more money than teams (refer to Sam's exhaustive list) who won their respective championships?

It doesn't seem unreasonable at all that a team that progresses longer in the competition gets a bigger paycheck. The result in ones domestic league shouldn't have any effect on the money that comes from ones CL performance.

How people expect the smaller leagues to improve when the majority of the CL cash is hoovered up by England, Spain, Italy etc is beyond me.

While I would like a more even spread of the CL money I still do think that you are forgetting the fact that the majority of the CL revenue is generated by the 5 or 6 biggest countries and the teams from those countries. A national champions only CL like you suggested wouldn't bring in even a tenth of the money that the current CL does and hence leave a lot less to be spread around.

[Lord and Master]

It wasn't an argument, merely an opinion and yes, I do think that a team that won it's domestic league is a better representative of "the best" than teams that are perennial runners-up...

So for international football the quality of the team is a good measure of who's best but for club football you go for fairness??? How does that make sense?

How does it not?! International teams are obviously made up of the best players that nation has to offer, whilst club teams are made up of whatever players the club can afford...

By having essentially the same teams every year there's no room for growth regarding the smaller, less well heard of teams. It's all very well listing all those teams, so you can sit back and snigger to yourself at how crap most of them are, but when those leagues/countries are consistently receiving significantly less CL money, year after year, than the more established ones, they are then denied the chance to grow.

Firstly, that's just not true. Romanian and Ukrainian teams have shown that it's very possible to improve and get further in the competitions and thus be rewarded with a higher ranking and getting more allocations to your country (and more money).

It is true! Admittedly you're right to say it IS possible, it's just very bloody difficult! If there were less "rich" teams taking the lions-share each year it'd be more of a level playing field...

Secondly, you seem to expect big and constant changes and that just isn't realistic. The best club in the world this year will probably be the best one (or thereabouts) next year too and that isn't a bad or unnatural thing tbh. Raising the quality of a club or league is a long term multi year project if you want to do it sustainably and for some it still isn't doable due to non-footballing restraints (a small population in a poor country will never be able to sustain the same level of club/league competitiveness as a large population in a rich country can). IMO the attitude of "we deserve" being a "big" team and the demands for instant success at any cost it brings is the major thing that's wrong with football today. It is that "we are entitled to" feeling that has driven the transfer market (and player salaries) to insane new heights. [/rant]

Apart from the bit at the start about me expecting big and constant changes every year, which I don't, I agree entirely with the rest of your point. Of course raising the quality of a club/country is a long-term project, but when the level's of already established clubs/countries is going up as well it makes it very hard for anyone to close that gap, ala the big4 in the pl. The bit near the end I frankly applaud as spot-on.

Doesn't it strike you as ridiculous that teams (such as your own beloved Arsenal, Sam n Thez) who finish a meagre 4th in their league, will probably get more money than teams (refer to Sam's exhaustive list) who won their respective championships?

It doesn't seem unreasonable at all that a team that progresses longer in the competition gets a bigger paycheck. The result in ones domestic league shouldn't have any effect on the money that comes from ones CL performance.

We'll have to agree to differ on this one. I think it's very unreasonable that a team from an unfancied country, who won an unfashionable league, go into the competition knowing that even if they were to exceed all expectation and progress to the knock-out phases they STILL won't generate as much income as a 4th place-scraping team from a more popular league. It goes back to the closing the gap thing...

How people expect the smaller leagues to improve when the majority of the CL cash is hoovered up by England, Spain, Italy etc is beyond me.

While I would like a more even spread of the CL money I still do think that you are forgetting the fact that the majority of the CL revenue is generated by the 5 or 6 biggest countries and the teams from those countries.

Hmmm... I can't agree... The majority of the CL revenue is generated by the sponsors and tv stations, it's got nothing (or next to nothing) to do with the countries. Anyway, I don't see how where the revenue comes from can be counted as a block against the more even spread scenario.

A national champions only CL like you suggested wouldn't bring in even a tenth of the money that the current CL does and hence leave a lot less to be spread around.

Yeah you're right, I just think it was somehow more romantic that way.

Revenue isn't a synonym for prestige, maybe someone should tell FIFA and UEFA that...

So we've gone back and forth a bit here, agreeing on the odd thing and disagreeing on more but can you tell me what if any changes you would like to see? Is the CL perfect the way it is or are there changes to the format that you think would improve the competition?

[Gypsys Kiss]

Is the CL perfect the way it is or are there changes to the format that you think would improve the competition?

It is what it is.....a competition that will, generally, only be won by a team with deep pockets. Romantic it is not and never will be again, or at least very rarely. I was at New Road, Worcester for the last 2 days of the county championship and it saddens me to say that I was thinking about six months without cricket and not a winter full of football. I have never thought that before. The game is going downhill and nobody seems to care, least of all the people in charge. The lower league teams struggle with a few hundred thousand of debt, while the lucky few wallow in millions. The players dont care who they play for aslong as the get a nice big fat pay cheque and not a single one of them are worth it, and the fans are being ripped off to pay for these over inflated egos.......

Oh well I dont suppose the ramblings of one disillusioned fan is going to make one iota of difference.......back to watching England fail dismally agianst the Ausuies

[stoicbird]

Is the CL perfect the way it is or are there changes to the format that you think would improve the competition?

It is what it is.....a competition that will, generally, only be won by a team with deep pockets. Romantic it is not and never will be again, or at least very rarely. I was at New Road, Worcester for the last 2 days of the county championship and it saddens me to say that I was thinking about six months without cricket and not a winter full of football. I have never thought that before. The game is going downhill and nobody seems to care, least of all the people in charge. The lower league teams struggle with a few hundred thousand of debt, while the lucky few wallow in millions. The players dont care who they play for aslong as the get a nice big fat pay cheque and not a single one of them are worth it, and the fans are being ripped off to pay for these over inflated egos.......

Oh well I dont suppose the ramblings of one disillusioned fan is going to make one iota of difference.......back to watching England fail dismally agianst the Ausuies

Sadly this is all to true. Maybe if we reverted back to a wage cap like the F.A. introduced in the 50's. And the amount of foreigners per team again we could start to reverse the rot. I believe it's possible as the players would have no choice but to accept the wage cap. If it was made worldwide.

[Thezzaruz]

How does it not?! International teams are obviously made up of the best players that nation has to offer, whilst club teams are made up of whatever players the club can afford...

So a national team that is the strongest in a weak region (such as New Zeeland) but still is nowhere near good enough to compete with the best nations out there you think it's fair to define and treat as a poor team but when it comes to a club team that is the best in a poor league but much weaker than the top european clubs you find the same treatment unfair??? That sir is called hypocrisy.

Yeah you're right, I just think it was somehow more romantic that way.

Revenue isn't a synonym for prestige, maybe someone should tell FIFA and UEFA that...

True but it usually is synonymous with interest. And you can be romantic (and blind) all you want but the current CL (with all its faults) does attract far more interest from football fans all over europe (and the world) than it ever did while being a champions only cup.

So we've gone back and forth a bit here, agreeing on the odd thing and disagreeing on more but can you tell me what if any changes you would like to see? Is the CL perfect the way it is or are there changes to the format that you think would improve the competition?

The short answer is "hell no", but it's way too late for me to go into detail. When I come back from my weekend trip I'll try to post some thoughts on this and the other points you made.

[Lord and Master]

How does it not?! International teams are obviously made up of the best players that nation has to offer, whilst club teams are made up of whatever players the club can afford...

So a national team that is the strongest in a weak region (such as New Zeeland) but still is nowhere near good enough to compete with the best nations out there you think it's fair to define and treat as a poor team but when it comes to a club team that is the best in a poor league but much weaker than the top european clubs you find the same treatment unfair??? That sir is called hypocrisy.

Nonsense! You can't apply the same rule to completely differing scenarios. That, Sir, would be simplistic in the extreme!

Yeah you're right, I just think it was somehow more romantic that way.

Revenue isn't a synonym for prestige, maybe someone should tell FIFA and UEFA that...

True but it usually is synonymous with interest. And you can be romantic (and blind) all you want but the current CL (with all its faults) does attract far more interest from football fans all over europe (and the world) than it ever did while being a champions only cup.

Yes, this is true. And love/romance is indeed said to be blind

[DAZMCFC]

L+M i see your point and quite frankly agree with you, but realistically it will never go back to just the Champions. you would not of won it in 99' if that was the case.


the TV stations and the sponsors would not want to fork out a shit load of money for the Champions of Kazakstan v the Champions of Armenia. i think they would rather pay good money for Real Madrid v Juventus. teams who are known around the world.

[pmchugh]

I have a conflicting opinion if it were jsut champions it would be easier for us to go further Nah you can't have a CL without arsenal, chelsea, liverpool, real madrid, bayern munchen, juve etc etc.

Its pits the best against the best although financially this only helps the big teams and helps the gap grow so i see where he is comnig from.

[Lord and Master]

L+M i see your point and quite frankly agree with you, but realistically it will never go back to just the Champions. you would not of won it in 99' if that was the case.


the TV stations and the sponsors would not want to fork out a shit load of money for the Champions of Kazakstan v the Champions of Armenia. i think they would rather pay good money for Real Madrid v Juventus. teams who are known around the world.

lol cheers Daz, to be honest we shouldn't have won it in 99 anyway!

I have a conflicting opinion if it were jsut champions it would be easier for us to go further Nah you can't have a CL without arsenal, chelsea, liverpool, real madrid, bayern munchen, juve etc etc.

Its pits the best against the best although financially this only helps the big teams and helps the gap grow so i see where he is comnig from.

Well, hopefully we'll have a CL without one of those 3 english teams next year, when Shitty gatecrash the party which'll prove it's not about the best of the best, it's the richest of the rich...

Anyway I've had enough of this convo now, gonna slink off and hope we can equalise against the mighty sunderland in the 2nd half


*EDIT* Jesus... Cheers Anton

[DAZMCFC]

Rangers 2 sellick 1


Miller 2.


we are the people,
we are the people.




on a side note, 150 pages.

[sam_levi_11]

Arsenal 6-2 Blackburn

Pretty good result, we look deadly, more so than any other team imo, however we look fragile defensively.

[pmchugh]

I *hick* hate *hick* you daz!!!!

[DAZMCFC]

Aston Villa 1 Man City 1


good game probably the right result. i was a bit dissappointed when we equalised. i thought we would push on for the win, but seem to just fizzle out. should of brought Petrov on for SWP as he was bit knackered. back up to 4th with a game in hand, not to bad.

[SFX!]

Leeds draw with Charlton. Decent result considering they're second. Also means we maintain our 3-point lead over them. No chance we can't get automatic now.

[sam_levi_11]

Leeds draw with Charlton. Decent result considering they're second. Also means we maintain our 3-point lead over them. No chance we can't get automatic now.

Famous last words.... But seriously, i think you and charlton must go up, if you dont it will be a travesty.

[DAZMCFC]

Leeds draw with Charlton. Decent result considering they're second. Also means we maintain our 3-point lead over them. No chance we can't get automatic now.

Famous last words.... But seriously, i think you and charlton must go up, if you dont it will be a travesty.

No, it will be because they haven't enough points.

[DAZMCFC]

Japan 2 Scotland 0


2 goals in the last 8 mins. we didn't have a shot at goal in the whole 90 mins. how sad is that. Stephen Fletcher had a chance to round the keeper, but he got tackled. with the team we sent out there, it seems a fair result though.

[Lord and Master]

Ukraine 1-0 England

Oh well, you can't win 'em all...


Ireland 2-2 Italy

What a result! I thought they'd get hammered but good solid performance, anyone know when the draw's are?

[DAZMCFC]

probably be on Friday.

[sam_levi_11]

Chile got through, and argentina are currently behind them in 4th. They should be through as well.

[pmchugh]

What an end to the argentina game last night, when peru hit the bar i almost had a heart attack.

[Titanic]

What an end to the argentina game last night, when peru hit the bar i almost had a heart attack.

Yes indeed, Maradona really has put the weight back on again hasn't he? Great ending, and Messi did well most the match trying to create something but I think he forgot Xavi and Iniesta weren't there to back him up.

I don't think the draw will be on Friday, that seems to early. I though it was normally in around April/May.