Perception of Top 10 Clans [Annually + Longevity]

[Fruitcake]

You guys are tied with TSM you know...

Yes, we all realize this, it is not over yet. If Tsm beats us and it ends in let's say March sometime, at that time in the year of 2010, I would say they would be the new # 1 clan, regardless if they bomb in clan league, why? Because they dethroned us when no one ever has, and that deserves a ton of respect and catapults them to # 1 in my view, I would think many would agree with that. Tsm is an outstanding clan and are worthy of being # 1 just as Tofu is. Even if Tsm lost, like I said earlier, out of a possible 10, I ranked Thota 9.7, Tsm 9.6, Tofu 9.5, meaning, they are all worthy and outstanding, there is not much separation. They have proved themselves time and time again. Anyways, that my 2 pennies.

And two pennies is about it's worth Blitz....

To you it is worth that because you are NOT there in the top 3 to 5, but, if you were, it may be worth more. P.S. learn to quote properly.

You don't seem to have a sense of humour Blitz

[Blitzaholic]

You guys are tied with TSM you know...

Yes, we all realize this, it is not over yet. If Tsm beats us and it ends in let's say March sometime, at that time in the year of 2010, I would say they would be the new # 1 clan, regardless if they bomb in clan league, why? Because they dethroned us when no one ever has, and that deserves a ton of respect and catapults them to # 1 in my view, I would think many would agree with that. Tsm is an outstanding clan and are worthy of being # 1 just as Tofu is. Even if Tsm lost, like I said earlier, out of a possible 10, I ranked Thota 9.7, Tsm 9.6, Tofu 9.5, meaning, they are all worthy and outstanding, there is not much separation. They have proved themselves time and time again. Anyways, that my 2 pennies.

There bruce is your proof of league smear campaign. The world revolves around Thota and only their loss has the power to throne/dethrone a clan.

Not necessarily Wasee, I mean, seriously, let's pretend you (Low) win clan season 2, and Tsm beats us in 80 game challenge. You would not rank Tsm # 1 currently? Who would be? Low? because they won clan season 2? Remember, the clan season 2 is what? like 20 games against each clan? In my view it does not hold the same weight as 80 games. Remember, a vast majority agreed that 40 games counted as a clan challenge and effect the ladder, the clan season does NOT have clans playing a minimum of 40 games against each other. Now The CUP does, so that may be different and we would need JP to weigh in on the CUP because those are 40 games. Would they effect the ladder?

Blitz, stop changing the landscape of your words every time some one shows your arguments to be highly subjective. Your words were pretty damning...I quote:

I would say they would be the new # 1 clan, regardless if they bomb in clan league, why? Because they dethroned us when no one ever has

Hardly an objective approach....

I think most would agree with that statement fruitcake. Thx for you editing your misquote and your name reminds me (fruitcake) well, it reminds me of a quack which makes it hard for me to take anything you say seriously due to the loose wiring connections and not all transmitters firing on the same cylinders in your brain. Now tell me, if Tsm beats Thota in the 80 game challenge, you would NOT put them at # 1? Most would rank them # 1 and if they did NOT then you do NOT know much about clan challenges history or clan knowledge. This is why I would prefer players who have knowledge of experienced clan activity over the years to weigh in, and NOT cc players who lack understanding. Almost all know Thota has been # 1 for years now that follow clan history, and if Tsm beats them, they should be # 1, how can you argue that? I don't get some of you guys sometimes. I am not saying this to brag or boost like some of you may think, but, it has been reported by many for years now. Have you been lost on an island somewhere?

[nagerous]

You guys are tied with TSM you know...

Yes, we all realize this, it is not over yet. If Tsm beats us and it ends in let's say March sometime, at that time in the year of 2010, I would say they would be the new # 1 clan, regardless if they bomb in clan league, why? Because they dethroned us when no one ever has, and that deserves a ton of respect and catapults them to # 1 in my view, I would think many would agree with that. Tsm is an outstanding clan and are worthy of being # 1 just as Tofu is. Even if Tsm lost, like I said earlier, out of a possible 10, I ranked Thota 9.7, Tsm 9.6, Tofu 9.5, meaning, they are all worthy and outstanding, there is not much separation. They have proved themselves time and time again. Anyways, that my 2 pennies.

There bruce is your proof of league smear campaign. The world revolves around Thota and only their loss has the power to throne/dethrone a clan.

Not necessarily Wasee, I mean, seriously, let's pretend you (Low) win clan season 2, and Tsm beats us in 80 game challenge. You would not rank Tsm # 1 currently? Who would be? Low? because they won clan season 2? Remember, the clan season 2 is what? like 20 games against each clan? In my view it does not hold the same weight as 80 games. Remember, a vast majority agreed that 40 games counted as a clan challenge and effect the ladder, the clan season does NOT have clans playing a minimum of 40 games against each other. Now The CUP does, so that may be different and we would need JP to weigh in on the CUP because those are 40 games. Would they effect the ladder?

Yes, 20 games against each clan has more weight than 80 games against one. In the clan league you have to play against all the best clans to win it... How do you not understand that?

[Blitzaholic]

You guys are tied with TSM you know...

Yes, we all realize this, it is not over yet. If Tsm beats us and it ends in let's say March sometime, at that time in the year of 2010, I would say they would be the new # 1 clan, regardless if they bomb in clan league, why? Because they dethroned us when no one ever has, and that deserves a ton of respect and catapults them to # 1 in my view, I would think many would agree with that. Tsm is an outstanding clan and are worthy of being # 1 just as Tofu is. Even if Tsm lost, like I said earlier, out of a possible 10, I ranked Thota 9.7, Tsm 9.6, Tofu 9.5, meaning, they are all worthy and outstanding, there is not much separation. They have proved themselves time and time again. Anyways, that my 2 pennies.

There bruce is your proof of league smear campaign. The world revolves around Thota and only their loss has the power to throne/dethrone a clan.

Not necessarily Wasee, I mean, seriously, let's pretend you (Low) win clan season 2, and Tsm beats us in 80 game challenge. You would not rank Tsm # 1 currently? Who would be? Low? because they won clan season 2? Remember, the clan season 2 is what? like 20 games against each clan? In my view it does not hold the same weight as 80 games. Remember, a vast majority agreed that 40 games counted as a clan challenge and effect the ladder, the clan season does NOT have clans playing a minimum of 40 games against each other. Now The CUP does, so that may be different and we would need JP to weigh in on the CUP because those are 40 games. Would they effect the ladder?

Yes, 20 games against each clan has more weight than 80 games against one. In the clan league you have to play against all the best clans to win it... How do you not understand that?

because 20 games is a joke and at any given time, anyone could beat anyone, but anyone could not easily beat anyone over 80 games, how come you cannot understand that? 20 games does not count towards the ladder, this has been discussed for a long time now, it involves more luck and more games against one clan shows more skill. get it now?

[jiminski]

hehee everyone having a pop at Blitzy in this one. Well personally i don't much like these threads.. i don't much like the congratulations threads either.. the ones where farmers all stand around and have a mutual Sherman; greasing each others little gun-turrets in between beating their fifteen hundredth Mogul Speed Freestyle cook of the day .. but we all know what these threads are. Blitzy loves'em! .. it keeps his mind off boobs for a short while everyday! and i think it makes America just a little safer!

As to the subjective or objective nature of this thread .. well i really didn't want to get involved to be honest .. It is fairly plain that these threads have to be subjective, of course they do! And as Blitzy is in the 'Number 1 Clan since records began!' ; ) it opens him up to the circling cerebral wolves, taking bites form the ageing grizzly as he defends his kill.
There is as yet no definitive measure by which we can weigh the best and certainly not retrospectively.. that's like the old Mike Tyson v Ali argument it is unanswerable.... though only an educated guess holds authority as to its outcome. Same is true in this case.

And fun though i am finding the intrigue of this thread, i am not sure anyone can really argue against THOTA being the best clan over the past couple of years. TSM, LOW, TOFU, Dragoons.. BPB? we are just fighting for scraps....

[Fruitcake]

Yes, we all realize this, it is not over yet. If Tsm beats us and it ends in let's say March sometime, at that time in the year of 2010, I would say they would be the new # 1 clan, regardless if they bomb in clan league, why? Because they dethroned us when no one ever has, and that deserves a ton of respect and catapults them to # 1 in my view, I would think many would agree with that. Tsm is an outstanding clan and are worthy of being # 1 just as Tofu is. Even if Tsm lost, like I said earlier, out of a possible 10, I ranked Thota 9.7, Tsm 9.6, Tofu 9.5, meaning, they are all worthy and outstanding, there is not much separation. They have proved themselves time and time again. Anyways, that my 2 pennies.

There bruce is your proof of league smear campaign. The world revolves around Thota and only their loss has the power to throne/dethrone a clan.

Not necessarily Wasee, I mean, seriously, let's pretend you (Low) win clan season 2, and Tsm beats us in 80 game challenge. You would not rank Tsm # 1 currently? Who would be? Low? because they won clan season 2? Remember, the clan season 2 is what? like 20 games against each clan? In my view it does not hold the same weight as 80 games. Remember, a vast majority agreed that 40 games counted as a clan challenge and effect the ladder, the clan season does NOT have clans playing a minimum of 40 games against each other. Now The CUP does, so that may be different and we would need JP to weigh in on the CUP because those are 40 games. Would they effect the ladder?

Yes, 20 games against each clan has more weight than 80 games against one. In the clan league you have to play against all the best clans to win it... How do you not understand that?

because 20 games is a joke and at any given time, anyone could beat anyone, but anyone could not easily beat anyone over 80 games, how come you cannot understand that? 20 games does not count towards the ladder, this has been discussed for a long time now, it involves more luck and more games against one clan shows more skill. get it now?

I am sure all those players who have fought hard in the League this season (and who's clans now sit higher than yours Blitz) will be encouraged by your words...as will the organisers.

[Blitzaholic]

The truth can hurt sometimes. This does not mean the team that wins clan season 2 did not achieve a great accomplishment, they did and deserve tons of credit. What I am saying is if a clan that wins clan season 2 that is not ranked in the top 3 to 5 on the current ladder, it would be hard to make them the new number clan now based on 20 games here and there? If Tsm beat us in 80, I would think most would put them 1st, am I wrong? I am not disrespecting any clan. Just trying to be honest as I can.

[Blitzaholic]

grow a set and get honest people
oh I see jimbo did.

And fun though i am finding the intrigue of this thread, i am not sure anyone can really argue against THOTA being the best clan over the past couple of years. TSM, LOW, TOFU, Dragoons.. BPB? we are just fighting for scraps....

There is man with a balls.
and if Tsm beat us, would they not be # 1? hard to argue that? most I think would agree with that? why is all so sensitive?

[Foxglove]

You're right, it was a big disappointment for us to lose an 8-game week to a B-class clan with no significant wins to its credit. But you know what they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day...

Come on now, I'm sure it stung just a little.

because 20 games is a joke and at any given time, anyone could beat anyone, but anyone could not easily beat anyone over 80 games, how come you cannot understand that? 20 games does not count towards the ladder, this has been discussed for a long time now, it involves more luck and more games against one clan shows more skill. get it now?

Of course that's true - the ladder and the league are completely different measuring sticks.

Winning a single week in the league doesn't prove much of anything, nor does the total 16 game record clans have against each other. Take THOTA and KORT, we are 11-5 against you in our 2 league weeks, yet no one believes that we're the better clan (I'll go out on a limb, though, and say we're nicer ). So, no - no one can claim to be the better clan based on individual clan match-ups in the league.

But the total set of games (80ish league games have been played so far by every clan!) should have some weight, though of course it's not something that can be added to a ladder. So sure, clans might have a bad week or three, but the league allows that bad luck to be hopefully balanced out by all of the other weeks to be played.

Clans that can dominate both challenges and the league deserve the top spots (hello, monkis!).

[Big Whiskey]

At players that try to twist and mold words that others say.Nothing better to do eh?Counting 20 games as a challenge is a joke imo.That is all Blitz meant if you read what he wrote.He hasn't tried to take anything away from the clans that are doing well in this years clan league.It will be a huge achievement for the clan that wins the league this year.It will be interesting to see which clan does.

BW

[khazalid]

allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment...

just how much nicer do you think you were after trying to bully and belittle G1 into a tiebreak after your draw foxy?

i find these threads pretty distasteful too y'know but some of the sniping going on here is pretty fucking unbelievable.

[Foxglove]

allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment...

just how much nicer do you think you were after trying to bully and belittle G1 into a tiebreak after your draw foxy?

i find these threads pretty distasteful too y'know but some of the sniping going on here is pretty fucking unbelievable.

haha, ok, you certainly have a point there! That comment of mine was mostly directed at the broken clock comment. Apparently this was not one of the 2 times a day during which I'm right! And also, I really shouldn't speak to anyone's niceness except my own.

And yes...far too much sniping/arguing going on here.

[happy2seeyou]

I'm happy to see you have changed the title and taken this current year out of the mix.

Also, I personally love these threads. I love all the people it brings to them and all the making out after a nice fist fight.

-Milk Juggs

ps, am I the only one that thinks the Olympics cartoon on CC looks like it grew a hairy bush?

[khazalid]

allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment...

just how much nicer do you think you were after trying to bully and belittle G1 into a tiebreak after your draw foxy?

i find these threads pretty distasteful too y'know but some of the sniping going on here is pretty fucking unbelievable.

haha, ok, you certainly have a point there! That comment of mine was mostly directed at the broken clock comment. Apparently this was not one of the 2 times a day during which I'm right! And also, I really shouldn't speak to anyone's niceness except my own.

And yes...far too much sniping/arguing going on here.

you're uber nice

courts - a bush or some very questionable piercings...

[jiminski]

..

ps, am I the only one that thinks the Olympics cartoon on CC looks like it grew a hairy bush?

yeas .. or perhaps a pepper-mill with with a womb

[Blitzaholic]

post a hot pic of a babe foxglove, and all is forgiven

Kort is a solid clan and very underrated, if you look at some of the names in their clan, and how they played in some recent games, I mean wow, one of the reasons they were moved up the list in my view. I mean Moo. Sjnap is a beast, Roel is superman.

[jpcloet]

Well, if TSM does beat THOTA, someone should make them a sig from this....

[Georgerx7di]

allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment...

just how much nicer do you think you were after trying to bully and belittle G1 into a tiebreak after your draw foxy?

i find these threads pretty distasteful too y'know but some of the sniping going on here is pretty fucking unbelievable.

Oh come on kaz, foxy's such a sweet girl, and it was mostly prism doing the belittling in that thread.

[khazalid]

yes, and is it blitz or THOTA who is making this list?

[Blitzaholic]

I am trying to continue and gather info from many experienced clan journeymen who demonstrate competence on clan matters. Many have helped so far with their posts and pm's, I salute you.

[Blitzaholic]

Well, if TSM does beat THOTA, someone should make them a sig from this....

oh my, that is classic JP I am sure there will be a thread made, and I will be there to congratz them if or when they do. Does the pic symbolize clapper riding nik?

[waseemalim]

The truth can hurt sometimes. This does not mean the team that wins clan season 2 did not achieve a great accomplishment, they did and deserve tons of credit. What I am saying is if a clan that wins clan season 2 that is not ranked in the top 3 to 5 on the current ladder, it would be hard to make them the new number clan now based on 20 games here and there? If Tsm beat us in 80, I would think most would put them 1st, am I wrong? I am not disrespecting any clan. Just trying to be honest as I can.

blitz, as usual, you are not making much sense. The clan league is not just 20 odd games. Its over a 100 games for each clan. You could have bad luck versus Empire, but if you are having bad luck versus L4D, KORT and IA as well -- then well may be its not bad luck. The games are as valid, if not more, as any clan challenge. Its not 20 games here and there, its 20 games all over the place.

We are not ranked top 5 because we lost a 36 game challenge to O&H, involving all random maps. I am not saying that O&H does not deserve this victory, but I am also not saying that this victory is somehow superior to O&H's overall record in the league.

Yes fine that the winner of clan league wont make it top of *your* list, I understand that view. But you do not seem to appreciate that the other side has a point as well.

You are not being honest, you are being bigoted and senseless. You just make make yourself think that you are being neutral and honest.

p.s. I am not claiming honesty myself. I know I am biased because we are leading our division. but blitz you too are biased because you havent been defeated. our yardsticks are different, and I am sure other people have different yardsticks as well. But dont go around touting that your measure is somehow superior, because then you get into a shitfight.

EDIT: If you read through the thread of LoW versus Thota you will realize that the games were pretty close till the very last moment. It was not a decisive victory for Thota, just as Kort's lead over IA is not decisive in the league right now.

[niMic]

The clan league is not just 20 odd games. Its over a 100 games for each clan.

Without taking a definite stand one way or another, this is the crux of the matter. It's disingenuous to consistently refer to the Clan League as just a "20 game challenge". Obviously individual weeks cannot be used to determine which clan is the best; over so few games anything can happen - but over a full season it should certainly count for something.

What I would like for the future is to do completely away with "clan challenges" as they are today, and instead have a completely organized and unified system of matching clans up against each other. Not necessarily the Clan League as it is either, but perhaps something that expands on the idea of the new big Clan Cup.

That said, some of the digs people are having at each other does nothing to help this debate forward. Many posts are filled with good points, yet because they also involve people taking shots at each other the good points will get lost in indignation and retaliation. How are we ever going to make a good system that everyone can agree with if it's impossible to have a thread without these sorts of attacks?

[Blitzaholic]

The truth can hurt sometimes. This does not mean the team that wins clan season 2 did not achieve a great accomplishment, they did and deserve tons of credit. What I am saying is if a clan that wins clan season 2 that is not ranked in the top 3 to 5 on the current ladder, it would be hard to make them the new number clan now based on 20 games here and there? If Tsm beat us in 80, I would think most would put them 1st, am I wrong? I am not disrespecting any clan. Just trying to be honest as I can.

blitz, as usual, you are not making much sense. The clan league is not just 20 odd games. Its over a 100 games for each clan. You could have bad luck versus Empire, but if you are having bad luck versus L4D, KORT and IA as well -- then well may be its not bad luck. The games are as valid, if not more, as any clan challenge. Its not 20 games here and there, its 20 games all over the place.

We are not ranked top 5 because we lost a 36 game challenge to O&H, involving all random maps. I am not saying that O&H does not deserve this victory, but I am also not saying that this victory is somehow superior to O&H's overall record in the league.

Yes fine that the winner of clan league wont make it top of *your* list, I understand that view. But you do not seem to appreciate that the other side has a point as well.

You are not being honest, you are being bigoted and senseless. You just make make yourself think that you are being neutral and honest.

p.s. I am not claiming honesty myself. I know I am biased because we are leading our division. but blitz you too are biased because you havent been defeated. our yardsticks are different, and I am sure other people have different yardsticks as well. But dont go around touting that your measure is somehow superior, because then you get into a shitfight.

Wasee, you do NOT get it, at least Foxglove did, 80 games compared to 16 against one clan is a monster difference. In the clan league, when you play a different clan, it is still 16 games per clan rival. There is more luck on every 16 game match up and more skill on 80, PERIOD. Maybe Jp can come in here and weigh on this, but, that's the truth. This is one of the main reasons why the 16 games do NOT count towards the ladder and 80 games would for rankings. So, let's say you win the clan season 2, that would not put you ahead of Thota, Tsm or Tofu, why? cause you NEVER beat them in big challenges. Although, I would give you and your clan a lot of credit and respect for winning clan season 2 if you did, it is a heck of an accomplishment.

[waseemalim]

Wasee, you do NOT get it, at least Foxglove did, 80 games compared to 16 against one clan is a monster difference. In the clan league, when you play a different clan, it is still 16 games per clan rival. There is more luck on every 16 game match up and more skill on 80, PERIOD. Maybe Jp can come in here and weigh on this, but, that's the truth.

nope YOU do not get it. I am sure someone more adept at Statistics than you or I can prove that the league weight should be the same as a clan challenge weight. It really is the same concept as having more players in a game, versus having more games.

Yes, I agree that Thota vs. Kort 5-11 does not count for much. But that fact that Kort has 70%, while Thota lingers at 50% in the entire league does.